ex-8step (from a different thread)

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
1

#42 Yesterday, 01:55 PM
ex_8step
Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2

Response Again

Apparently somebody deleted my post yesterday because they did not want other to read my story. I write as being genuine and sincere in my account. Because of my technical background, I have saved a copy and has repost it again. If it get delete it again I will post it as a separate thread or to another martial art website. I want people to know me and not the misrespentation in this thread.

Thanks.

I am the short Chinese guy (Kin, but my master always call me Kim) that was mentioned in this thread. I am only responding to the information that was misleading about me and my relationship to my master Shyun. Mike’s information about me is partial and closest to being correct.

From time to time I surfed on the Internet regarding 8 Step information just to keep up with what’s going on with the system because I still have a personal passion for the Mantis style.

I am of Chinese descent born in Hong Kong (impossible for me to be a spy since I am not from Taiwan) and came to the US when I was very young. I speak fluent English and broken Chinese (Cantonese). The only small amount of Mandarin Chinese that I learned is when I studied under my master Shyun in SF.

Before 8 Step, I studied 7 Star in NYC under Stanley Moy and Cheung Wah who learned from Master Chiu Leung. Also I knew Stephen Laurette who is my 7 Star sifus’ kung fu brother and Tony Puyot’s sifu. Tony is Mike’s sifu. I met Tony in SF during my studies.

Here is my condensed 8 Step timeline. Back in the fall of 1986 I came to SF for 3 weeks to train with my master Shyun. What sparked my interest in 8 Step is the fact that 8 Step has an advanced ground fighting form according to master Shyun’s first Inside Kung Fu article. Before I came to SF, I called my master at the school and convinced him to give me private lessons because of my short stature.

It was my first time being in SF, so during the day time I was sightseeing SF for the first week and trained in the evening. The next two weeks I spend most of the time training. Afterward, I returned back to NYC and continued with my 7 Star training.

Then around September of 1987 I was again in SF for more training of 8 Step. At that time master James Shyun was invited to Taiwan in December for the Tai Chi tournament. So he was teaching Tai Chi to me and some of the students that were going to Taiwan to participate in the tournament. While in Taiwan, we had the privilege of visiting and paying respect to Grand Master Wei’s grave site. I returned to NYC after the trip to Taiwan.

I moved out to SF in the summer of 1988 hoping to study 8 Step full time. But some times it does not work out the way you want it to. I was having a hard time looking for work to sustain my living expense in SF to continue my 8 Step studies. My master’s brother in-law was very helpful and got me a job working with the company that he works for (7pm-3am (S-Th)). Because of my work schedule I could not participate in the regular class schedule. This is why my Master taught me privately.

Before Dean moved back to Buffalo, my master videotaped me performing the 8 Step forms and his other Tai Chi student the Tai Chi forms. This is for the Dean to reference to for both systems.

My master did teach me a lot of 8 Step because I helped him out doing some minor work with some of his business ventures outside of martial arts. He has not charged me tuition since I moved to SF (No, I did not do his laundry and house work).

Also my master never kicked me out of his house or school. I still have a master/student relationship with him to this day. He has been good to me and I always had the highest respect for him. I moved back to NYC in late fall 1992 while he was away in Taiwan doing business.

Around 1995/1996 (I’m don’t remember the exact date) when he came to NJ to do a seminar, I took him and his student Jack Skutnik to dinner in NYC Chinatown.

My master’s family (wife, son Anthony, daughter Anita, brother and brother in-law) can verify my relationship to my Master and his family. I still keep in touch with his son Anthony via email.

Currently I am not active in martial arts and have no present/future intention of any involvement with 8 Step/7 Star. My present career is in the computer technology field.

There is no secrecy surrounding my relationship with Master Shyun. I am just like all of you that were/are learning 8 Step because it is a great and effective martial art system.

I have left out details which I felt it was unnecessary in this post, but enough for you all to know who I am.

My wish/prayer for all of you is to continue to focus on studying and mastering the martial arts (physical and philosophical) and to keep it alive for future generations.

With great respect to all I end here.

Whatever my master Shyun has told you regarding me, I know he has his reason at that time. I will personally speak to him on this matter for clarification.

Please speak to my master James Shyun, his senior students, his kung fu brothers or his kung fu brothers’ student for clarification on the names of the forms that you are seeking. I do not have the authority to speak on it nor will I break my teacher/student bond with my master.

I am going to make one recommendation to you. Please do not publicize the internal affairs of any martial art systems whether it is true or false. This does not help to promote the martial system, but only to destroy it. - Kin

Abandoning gossip, he abstains from gossip; he speaks at the right time, speaks what is fact, speaks on what is good, speaks on the Dhamma and the Discipline; at the right time he speaks such words as are worth recording, reasonable, moderate, and beneficial.

Majjhima-Nikaya
From “365 Buddha: Daily Meditations,” edited by Jeff Schmidt. Reprinted by arrangement with Tarcher/Putnam, a division of Penguin Putnam Inc.

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#47 Yesterday, 06:45 PM
Three Harmonies
Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Posts: 397

****IT I could care less, but I do want to know about the groundfighting form, or techniques or whatever, since this is the FIRST time I have ever heard of any such thing in Babu Tanglang!!!

Thanks
Jake

“Gravity never lies, and the ground never misses.”
Jake Burroughs
Three Harmonies Chinese Martial Arts Center
Albuquerque, NM
www.threeharmonies.com

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#48 Yesterday, 07:36 PM
Michael Dasargo
Registered User Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: San Diego, CA USA
Posts: 45

Kin Shibo,

Thank you for clarifying the history of your relationship with Shigong. I deeply appreciate your gesture in coming forward in this matter. It is also very exciting for me to now be in touch with someone from the days of old. With your permission, I would like to contact you privately to learn more about our history.

Sincerely,
M.Dasargo

The Traditional Kung Fu Academy
www.MantisSkills.com

The Kuoshu Union 501(c)3
www.Kuoshu-Union.org

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#49 Today, 08:16 AM
EarthDragon
SHRFU FOR LIFE! Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 688

Kin, why the secrecy? you said you dont have the authority to say what you have learned? or break the bond you have by naming the forms? I didnt think tyou needed authority to list the names of the sets. I am not asking to teach them just list them.

You say to ask his senior students? there is only 1 of his students senior to me and that is Dean and he doesnt know the names either.

May I ask what kung fu brother you speak of? Shrfu Lin perhaps?

I appriciate your advice and recommendation however much has happened in the ACMAF since the old days. And the “cat” has been let out of the bag many years ago.

I am now to the point in my training that I am trying to sort out Wei’s ba bu from Shyun’s and attempting to reveal what has came from where. Many have helped me sort this out however there has always been curiosity to he last 5 sets and thier origin. Therefore I dont think that by listing the names of these forms is breaking any bond nor taking authority.

I do appriciate you comming forward and clairifying the situation. Just asking for a little help in my clairification. thanks

www.eightstep.com
Please visit us

The more we learn, the less we know

2

Let’s see……

1. You never really met me, but publicly tarnished my character whether the rumors are true or false.
2. You are unapologetic even after I publicize my account for clarification.
3. You publicly trash talk my master Shyun, his students and the 8 Step Preying Mantis System that he teaches.
4. You are no longer part of the instructor list of www.8step.com.

Mmm…If you were me, would you be helpful to someone who has no respect to you, your master or your system. :confused:

3

ex_step

1.May I ask how I tarnished your character? I simply repeated what had been told to me by my teacher James Shyun. If anyone tarnished your character it was You for your actions, and Shyun for telling his other students about what you had done.

2.Are you looking for a apology from me? I didnt think I said anything to offend you, disrepect you or that I should be sorry about. Please expalin if I did..

  1. thirdly Shyun is not your teacher nor master. According to him he kicked you out after finding that letter. I never trashed talked him. I simply stated facts I had learned and then decided to leave the ACMAF with 4 of my kung fu brothers for that information that had surfaced. Also he does not claim to teach 8 step praying mantis but Shyun style praying mantis. Which we have all found out why…

  2. I am no longer affiliated with the ACMAF. But I am still a certified Shrfu. He cannot take my acomplishments or ranking away just becuse I refused to pay the dues and follow his cult. But I am still ranked, still used to be the HQ scool of NY and still a 6th generation and BTW your name was never on www.8step.com and you were never a grade 1 shrfu. Dean’s name is not on the new website and he is the first, the best and only 5th generation under shyun, so what does that mean? he stopped paying the ridiculous dues also.

If I were you …Yes I would help out other people interested in 8 step to promote and help open the system. I would be glad to answer anyones questions, clear up confusion. and help the system grow in any way i can. enough with the BS already. this has been the demise of the 8 step system since Shyuns comming to the USA. the CAT as i said has been let out of the bag. But just becuse you took some private lessons with him does not entilte you to call him anything but james/shrfu shyun. For it is these reasons his version of 8 step has been questioned, laughed about and discredited thus far… there are not 10 stes in ba bu this is why so many people are curious about what it was you learned. Do you think you learend the secret master Wei’s sets handed down onlyt to James Shyun? the the sole inheritor of 8 step???
Mmm…If you were me, would you be helpful to someone who has no respect to you, your master or your system.

I do appriciate you comming forward and clairifying the situation. Just asking for a little help in my clairification. thanks

4

I see where this is heading, so this will be my last post and I will not be visiting this site again. I don’t like to deal with inconsistencies. I only came forward to clarify my relationship with MY MASTER and the system on the first post. Whether you all believe it or not, I will let you all decide. My account with my master and 8 step can be validated by my Master’s family. I welcome all to make inquiries to my master’s family regarding me.

If everybody would read my original post again, I NEVER made any specific claims on what I was taught, learned or even being an instructor. I only said “My master did teach me a lot of 8 Step”. Remember if someone says “a lot” and makes no details to the claim, it means nothing. So you all can say I learned NOTHING.

As for those 10 8 step “Shyun” mantis forms in the video tape, I make no claims to it. All other 8 Step gurus can try to figure out their names or whether it is real or fake.

Anything claimed that was said by my Master, I will speak to him this week for clarification.

I tried to call my Master Shyun Friday night, but he was away teaching his students. He will be returning tomorrow (Monday) and I plan to call him this week to pay my respect to him. It’s been too long since I last spoke to him. I will also inform my master on what’s these sites have been talking about him.

The other good thing is that I was able to talk to Anthony (Master Shyun’s son). It’s been a few years since we talked, we usually communicate via email. I had a nice long conversation with him, we reminisce our days back in SF. We also talked about what went on with him, his father and his family after I left.

Again my wish/prayer for all of you is to continue to focus on studying and mastering the martial arts (physical and philosophical) and to keep it alive for future generations.

With great respect to all I end here.

BTW - I scanned one of Grand Master Wei’s book (out of print) that I photocopied from my Master Shyun. Here is the cover of the book and I chopped it up to fit the size requirement. I have attached to this post. :slight_smile:

5

So is it safe to assume that NO ONE is going to talk about this mysterious Di Tang Babu set??? :confused: :confused:
I have never heard of this, and yet certain people want to bring it up on the web but do not want to elaborate! So until further notice I am calling BULL**** on this one! :rolleyes:

6

Does not look like it Jake. Dude said he was out of here.

7

Hey Jake,
I’ve never heard of a Di-tang set in Ba Bu, only that Master Wei studied it prior to learning 8 step (I’ll double check on that though, as I’m unqualified to speak on such things). There are ground moves in the 4th Session, but I myself have yet to learn it, and can’t really comment on it (out of ignorance, not out of secrecy). I thought the Di-Tang set was the in Plumb Blossom’s 7th essential, that came from Song’s line. I have heard of “Low mantis” in Shyun’s 8 step, as well as adding ground fighting from MMA (I base this on past threads regarding Joel Sutton’s tape of ground fighting, broken down into the 8’s), but I don’t think that came from Master Wei, I could be wrong, but nobody else was commenting, so I threw in my 2. If I hear other wise from my instructor, or the wonderful people affiliated with and including Master Chang who have been more than generous with us, I’ll repost.

Later,
Rich

8

Rich
Thanks. Indeed Ditang is in certain parts of the Zhai Yao (I too have not learned them so I can only comment so far) of many styles, but I have never heard of a whole form in Babu. Just certain techniques found in the 6 or 7th road of Babu Zhaiyao. I learned the Di Long Jing (Ground Dragon Classic) from my Xing Yi coach Tim Cartmell, but their is not much to it.
I would like to hear more about Di Tang in Mantis (or any style for that matter). I believe these skills are quickly becoming lost, and would like to preserve them.
Sutton…sounds familiar. What tapes does he have out? Any good?

Thanks
Jake :smiley:

9

Sutton

Hey Jake,
Joel Sutton had a few fights in the UFC, won some and lost some. Any way the tape he made was for James Shyun, and some of his instructors, I don’t believe it was ever available to the public, and I don’t have a copy of it either. I’ll see if I can dig up one up before giving a description. Tim Cartmell… he writes good books, if I’m thinking of the same person (Effortless Combat Throws) and from his descriptions of entrances, and dynamics seems like a good teacher.

Have a good one,
Rich

10

Which is why,…

Which is why I deleted his first post,…a “Look at me” post right in the middle of someone elses thread. Sorry but I think its pure chicken-sh!t to put up such a fuss then bail out when the real questions are asked with no fore-coming answers;,…wich is also why I made this thread as opposed to letting him do it then delete it as so many others have done.

Sorry for going off on this one but its a cr@ppy day & I need to pound someone.
I’ll be back when I cool down a bit.

Trolls s#ck,…I hate everyone…including the imortal monkey master,…the b@statrd.

~BTL

11

I heard about ground fighting mantis

This is what little I heard about James Sun’s ground fighting mantis. I heard from a friend of mine who hung out in SF’s pan handle park where Brendan Lai and Adam Hsu used to teach. This was back in the early ‘90s. One of Sun’s student talk about the ground fighting mantis form having a lot of moves (over 200). The moves has a lot mantis techniques added with the ground fighting techniques that you see in a lot of North styles’ groundfighting. It has different rollings, low kicks, sweeps, and leg sissor cut. I heard that the mantis ground fighting is used only when the opponent’s skill is equal to or greater. Basically it is the tie breaker.

Don’t hold me to the story. This is only what I heard. :rolleyes:

12

In CCK TCPM we have a form, Lao Hop Jung, that has sweeps and scissor cut moves done from the ground. Two people in our class our learning it now and my sifu allowed me to see a tape of Grandmaster Cheng’s son doing this form. Truly amazing!

13

Shouldn’t you have started a different thread regarding this? :eek: :wink: :smiley:

14

BAH! LOL!

15

Would you consider knocking on another door?

FWIW,

Adam Hsu also learned the 8 step style. If there is a groundfighting set, he may have it as well. I do remember reading that he taught students this style for the sake of keeping it alive for another generation.

mickey

16

Confirmation

I spoke with my master James Shyun and yes he is still my master. He has confirmed to me that I am still legitimately part of his 8 step praying mantis system. My entire 8 step was taught by my master Shyun. (Note: Some of my senior classmates taught me some basics when I first started with 8 step). You can contact him or his students can verify it through him.

Grandmaster James Shyun wants everybody to know that they are welcome to talk to him or his active students to clarify any false claims against him or his school. Also he can verify the name of students that studied directly under him.

Grandmaster James Shyun wants the 8 eight praying mantis system to grow and flourish. He has been putting all his efforts to making it happen.

I apologize to you guys for not being forthcoming in details to what I know about 8 step. I had to talk to my master first to confirm my status with his school. He also updated me on what has been going on with him and his schools. I have not been actively part of his school for about 15 years, so whatever I say about the system may not be 100% accurate. I am sure that if you have any questions on 8 step, his current students can provide an answer.

With great respect to all,

:slight_smile:

17

May I ask why you said you are still legitamatly part of the 8 step system but your name does not appear on the website? Do you see my point? My name is not on he website either although I lived with him for over a year and authorized by him to teach 8 step , neither is Dean, Robert, George, Steve or Tony.

The only students on the new website are the ones who pay 100.00 per month to be on there. But he has many others who choose not to continue affiliation but still ranked by him as Shrfu’s

Are you insinuating that I am not one of the students whom learned directly under him? Please check the mantis cave and my website for certification.


Also he can verify the name of students that studied directly under him.

Grandmaster James Shyun wants the 8 eight praying mantis system to grow and flourish. He has been putting all his efforts to making it happen.

agreed

OK Kin, sorry you couldnt answer my questions about the sets, thats your progitive. I wish you well in your travels…

18

History and Forms

Moderator:

This following message has to do with both story and forms. Please feel free to delete one of the two duplicate messages based on which thread is more appropriate for the post. Thanks in advance.

Shifu Puyot is having trouble posting from his work computer.
The following message was sent to me by Shifu Puyot:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Puyot
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:44 AM
> To: Michael Dasargo (E-mail)
> Subject: Kung Fu Mag Post
>
> Mike,
>
> I tried to post but again it kick it out. Could you please post this for
> me on the thread about kin and eight step forms.
>
>
>
> I thought I would try to give some clarification on some of the topics
> that have come up. These are my experiences at the time.
> I remember Dean, Robert, Kin and all the others that were there at the
> time.
>
>
> I learned nine forms from Master Sun over a five year period. Around 1990
> I was back in San Diego and commuting to SF to study. On one of these
> trips I noticed that forms had changed. The way I had learned them was
> not the way they were now being taught to the new students. (techniques
> had been changed) I confronted Master Sun about this in a closed door
> session. What he told me was that he did not trust people and had changed
> some of the material. I was very upset and told him I was out of there.
> He promised he would “teach me right”. The damage had been done, I could
> not trust what I was learning and walked out. We talk and over the years
> we have had dinner on several occasions. I may not agree with the way
> Master Sun does things in business but he did tech me more about
> application than all my other teachers.
>
> Now for the forms:
> 1. Chi Shou
> 2. Siu Fan CHe
> 3. Lee Pee
> 4. Da Fan Che
> 5. Tang lag Shou
> 6. Lan Jit
> 7. Luen huan Jeung
> 8. Jak Yu
> 9. ?
>
> I do not remember the name of the last two sets. I will try to look at my
> old notes.
>
> As for the ground form. master Sun said it was that last form taught in
> the system. I never saw the form but he did tell me he was the only
> person to learn the set from Master Wei. I remember Su Yu Chang going to
> the school one time. When i asked Sun what he was doing in SF he said he
> was trying to learn the ground form from him. He said said Chang was the
> only other person that had the entire system with the exception of the
> ground form.
>
> Jake, you had asked about any other ground forms. My teacher Steve
> Laurette did study with Chan Sao Chung. The monkey king in Hong Kong. I
> learned the three Pek Kwar hand forms and one ground form (Sai Ping Da
> Tong Kuen) The form consisted of rolling, twisat ups, leg locks with your
> legs and sweeping. I think I could still do the form with the help of my
> notes.
>
>
> On a side note: when ever Sun would do a throw in practice, he would
> always finish the enemy with a Chin Na move on the ground.
>
>
> From back in the day,
>
> Tony P

19

Michael,
thanks so much for the post from Tony. Although I have never met him as I statrted in 1989 I have mad respect for what he has accomplised.

It is interesting that he saw what james Shyun was doing. he would always tell us that the senoir students learned the REAL way and that the younger students had to prove themselves and he did not trust anyone with his “inheritted” system. I teach the same way I was taught… no holding back. I see the shyun version of 8 step and it is much different now then it was back when I learned. who knows what version is right. sometimes he would forget moves right in the midddle of the sets and we would kid him that he changed them to much he cant even remember. LOL but anyways I am glad Tony stepped up and spoke out about this. many of us are still concerned about the furture and what is left of 8 step… be well…

Its a shame that Kin would not elebrate on what he started. As BEI said he avoided the real questions when they came at him.. Oh well know we know what and whome James Shyun meant when he said mistrust…

20

Puyot Laoshi-via-Desargo Laoshi
Thank you. So Sun was the only one to learn the ground form eh :rolleyes: ?

Did Chan do a lot of apps? I heard he is mostly forms.

Thanks
Jake :slight_smile: