Greater 8 Step Community

Shifu John Chang has taken an interest in some of the topics discussed in this forum and wanted to add some information. As some of you may already know, Shifu Chang studied 8 Step under GM Wei and continues to participate actively in the 8 Step community today. He only had one Kung Fu teacher, GM Wei, and has studied 8 Step exclusively for the past 30 years. Here are some of his experiences and thoughts about topics brought up recently:

Regarding James Shyun, many of GM Wei’s students knew James Shyun in Taiwan 30 years ago. Shifu Chang helped James Shyun get established and find a location for his first 8 Step classes when he came to the U.S. in 1983, and continued to keep in touch with him after that. Shifu Chang considers James Shyun to be a very good martial artist, and valuable to the 8 Step community through his efforts to make 8 Step a better known style. When James Shyun started claiming to be the sole inheritor of 8 Step for marketing purposes, most of the other students of GM Wei chose to turn a blind eye for three reasons: (1) 8 Step is a somewhat rare style and James Shyun was helping to broaden its popularity, (2) Although James Shyun has only visited GM Wei’s tomb once in the last 20 years as far as Shifu Chang knows, and has never contributed to its maintenance, James Shyun did show respect for GM Wei by attributing the style he teaches to GM Wei, and (3) it’s always nice to see someone you know from long ago build a successful business, especially when it’s based on spreading an art form you love. A few years ago, some of GM Wei’s former students chose not to turn that blind eye anymore when James Shyun decided to trademark “8 Step Praying Mantis” and require payments to teach 8 Step. As some of you are aware, this conflict led to lawsuits and many personal attacks over the Internet. Shifu Chang feels that these personal attacks only hurt the 8 Step community. Shifu Chang’s approach to combatting any untruths about 8 Step or GM Wei has always been to spread truths that can compete on their merits to counteract those untruths, rather than resorting to personal attacks.

In that spirit, Shifu Chang would like to lend his perspective on the recent topic of GM Wei’s knowledge of Chinese medicine: To Shifu Chang’s knowledge, GM Wei did not know any Chinese medicine. If he did, he never talked about it with any of his students. Even when Shifu Chang and several others stayed with GM Wei in the hospital while he recovered from a potentially lethal skin illness, GM Wei never mentioned wanting any Chinese medicines or treatments, and never asked anyone to buy any special herbs for him. Shifu Chang believes that, if GM Wei had known how to prepare Chinese medicines or had taken any significant interest in them, he would have used them when he was most in need of them himself.

Also, Shifu Chang wanted to let people know about several other former students of GM Wei who continue to teach 8 Step, since many people may not be aware of the greater 8 Step community:

Mr. Wu Er Li teaches 8 Step in Texas, including sections 1 through 6, continuing palm set, and sword set.

Mr. Lin Chun Fu, who was Shifu Chang’s high school P. E. teacher, continues to teach the complete 8 Step system, including Taichi, in Los Angeles.

Mr. Zuo Xian Fu is the only full-time 8 Step teacher who has taught in Taipei for the last 10 plus years. He teaches the complete hand forms, taichi, and several weapon forms. He is also the person who organizes the yearly sweeping of GM Wei’s tomb every April and ensures it is always well maintained. In recent years, Shifu Zuo has dedicated much time to standardizing the 8 Step forms based on GM Wei’s teachings with the consensus of a number of others who studied under GM Wei.

Hopefully this information will raise awareness of the greater 8 Step community, which may be a good deal smaller than the number of James Shyun’s students, and perhaps less outspoken, but still has much to offer in the way of knowledge about GM Wei’s teachings.

Thank you sir, and it is refreshing to see some of the other 8 Step guys coming out a bit! Appreciate it!

Cheers
Jake Burroughs

Same Teacher?

lapu_squared,

I noted on the Mantis Quarterly website that a teacher of Babu Tanglang named John Chang has written on the internal aspects of Tanglang and on Jing. Is this the same instructor/ author? I know that it probably is but I wanted to be sure.

Welcome!

Libingshao

Here is a challenge to the people who love to put down someone else. Provide proof rather than a snake-oil sale pitch. I could write anything down and make it sound very convincing, but it still would not be all truth.

My wife sweeps out my house. That does not make her the master.

Who won the lawsuit?

Why do you and others try to make knock-off web sites coping the official 8 Step web site? For example the official 8 Step Praying Mantis web site is http://www.8step.com. I have seen a copy renamed to eightstep.com, and your 8-step.com that redirects you to another.

Master Sun has posted documents on the “official” 8 step website which links him directly to the system. Provide documents of your own rather than running off at the mouth.

Master Sun has produced books, and at least 1 video, of the 8 Step system. Where are yours?

Master Sun has been in many publications covering 8 Step Praying Mantis. Where is proof of your coverage?

I am surprised that Kung Fu Magazine’s forum would constantly allow this type of post to keep being posted and turn a blind eye, without banning those who repeatedly post such blather.
:mad:

Thank you for the clarity…

Lapu_squared,

      Shifu Chang teaches Shifu Kennedy King in San Jose, Ca. Would you happen to be a student of Shifu Changs as well? Mine and Fork In the Roads Shifu had learned from James Shyun originally, but has been getting information from Master Chang and Kennedy King regarding the traditional style of Ba Bu. Yes, the differences are slight, but would you happen to know why James Shyun didn't go with the traditional style? 

I practice Ba Bu with no intentions of ever quitting. I have both GM Wei’s books as well as a DVD that has the 8mm footage of GM Wei performing the essentials. If you would happen to have any more footage or info, please PM me as I would love to further my knowledge. Also, Fork in the Road would probably love this as well.

missed?

just curious, but it seems someone was missed when the legitamite students that trained under Grandmaster Wei, was mentioned> Dr Grand Master Su Yu Chang from Pachi Tang Lang In New York. there is a plethora of evidence to this fact. :confused:

Darkfist

Check the link below. He’s there.

http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/babu.htm

lapu_squared

No disrespect, but if Mr. Chang has an interest in the forum, it would be best if he came here & just said it himsellf or spoke through a reputable channel.
We do not know who you are, if you are truely speaking for him or even know him for that matter.
Respectfully,
~BTL

Responses

libingshao - Yes, my shifu is the same as the John Chang who wrote on the internal aspects of 8 Step for Mantis Quarterly.

Pilot - I think I understand your frustration and I agree with you. We should provide more information than we have in the past. I take the blame for this myself. Shifu Chang is very open and willing to share information, and usually relies on me to get the word out through various media. We have published a few articles through Mantis Quarterly that I would encourage you to take a look at. We have also had Inside Kung Fu on hold for several months now to do an article on GM Wei’s life, including some biographical information that, to my knowledge, has not been published before. Still, my schedule has been very hectic and I simply haven’t followed through. So, I promise to get more traditional 8 Step information out in the future. I doubt Shifu Chang’s group will ever be as prolific as James Shyun’s, since we are considerably smaller and not a commercial enterprise, but we can certainly do better than we have in the past. In the spirit of showing you our good faith, why don’t you suggest one topic you’d like to hear from Shifu Chang on? I promise to get Shifu Chang’s throughts on the topic and address it in detail in this thread. Thanks for the honest feedback.

Chizica - Yes, I’m a student of Shifu Chang’s and know “Kennedy King” quite well. (Kennedy King is actually not his name, but I would prefer not to mention his true name on-line for purposes of protecting his privacy.) I do have a fair amount of footage of GM Wei. Perhaps we could compare notes off-line to see if either of us has footage the other doesn’t. Feel free to e-mail me if this sounds good to you.

Sifu Darkfist - My apologies for missing Master Su. Actually, he was not the only one not included in Shifu Chang’s list. In fact, some of the 8 Step people Shifu Chang admires most were not on the list, so I’m certain no offense was intended and it wasn’t meant to be a comprehensive list.

BeiTangLang - Your skepticism is well founded. As you may already know, ordinarily Bokfu is the “reputable channel” through whom Shifu Chang gets information to the forum. Unfortunately, Bokfu is under some serious time constraints these days, so I volunteered to do it on his behalf. If you have any concerns at all about my own reputation or legitimacy, don’t hesitate to e-mail me and put me to the test. I’ll be more than happy to provide proof of my association with Shifu Chang. I understand that, as administrator, you need to maintain the integrity of the forum, so I would be happy to talk with you by phone or spend any time necessary to give you any assurances you may need.

you somehow left out Mr. Wang jie who teaches 8 steps at taiwan. He is the guy who did the demo for some of the video clips on GM Wei’s memeorial website.

lapu_squared:

I have no problem with any Kung Fu Brother that wants to share their roots and knowledge. I welcome information on other branches and enjoy the fellowship between the different mantis schools and styles. What I don’t enjoy is the climbing the ladder by stepping on others.

Lapu sqaured,
I commend you for your efforts and your post. It has been a long time comming.
I have had the privilidge to havespoken to John Chang before he left for Asia and once agian when he returned.
I was a long time student of James Shyun and one of the only 4 ACTUAL students of him…when I mean that i mean trined dirctly under him not from one of his new shrfu’s. everyone else is a student of a student of his and are only allowed to refer to him as Master Shyun. unlike me and 4 others who respectfully call him Shrfu Shyun.

Also my first Shrfu and best friend Dean Economos is stopping by from time to time to train with John chang in his garage. I am sure you have met him. Dean has told me of the imediate differences bewtween what he has seen with john as opposed to James. Not to say he hasnt seen james kung fu, for he has been with him since 1984 on irving street in the sunset, the very place John helped James get.

I laugh at the frustration from all these up and coming students who think that that just becuse thier cult calls 8step.com the “official” website for all of the mantis in the world and that James wrote a book for beginers on the 10 body cordinations (which arent even really 8 step) he is the only true legend the only student and sole inheritor of ba bu.
I applaud you and your lineage to step up and stick up for us practioners that have found out what the others have not gotten.

I would love to get some information and posible corrections of the true techniques I have spent 16 years trying to learn. Again thank you for stepping up, no pun intended.

Hello Lapu_squared,
Thank you for the informative post, and Chizica is right, if you have any information on Grand Master Wei, or Ba Bu in general that you would be willing to share, I would greatly appreciate it. Unfortuantley I have little or nothing to offer, that you don’t allready have or know. I would like to thank Master Chang, and Mr. King for all the help they have given the instructors at the Edge (and I pray things go better in their personal lives).

In the past I’ve grilled Mr. Shyun’s system, and I do not think I was wrong about my comments. I stated what I noticed between the forms, and techniques, and stick by those comments, however without Mr. Shyun the school I attend would not have the Lan Jie form.

Pilot, has there ever been any proof that Shuyn is the inheritor? Like I’ve already said, it’s not hard to disprove what has yet to be proven. We can play this game forever, and because it’s been going on so long, credible Ba Bu players like Paul Lin and others no longer, or very rarely post. I have stated a few differences and why I feel the traditional triumphs over Shuyns, but the tread was closed off before you, Andy Miles and the million other Shuyn stylists could explain why your training methods are superior, and then go from there.

Oh I would not call the Tibute page to Grand Master Wei, an 8 step knock off page, there is actually information on the tribute page, and not just somebody bragging about how wonderful they are.

Well thats all I wanted to say,
Once again Thank you Lapu_squared,
I hope somebody from Master Chang’s camp can head to Western New York some day.

Welcome to the board

Hi Lapu_Squared,

Thank you very much for sharing the information. I enjoy Sifu Chang’s articles on the MQ and I really appreciate his sharing with and support to the mantis communtiy at large. Please send my humble regards to him.

Best regards

Robert Hui (Mantis108)

Lapu Lapu,
Thank you for the informative post. Although I’ve never met you before, your well mannered behavior demonstrates the quality of your Shifu. I appreciate the information you’ve provided, and if I have a doubt about your representation, I will make attempts to contact Shifu Chang on my own time. Currently, I don’t feel it is necessary as you’ve presented your data based on spreading your truths, versus personal attacks.

About my 8 Step line:
My Shifu, Tony Puyot, was introduced to Xun Shifu in the early 80’s through Adam Hsu. At that time, my Shifu was working in loss prevention, and survived in a disadvantaged community. The premise of the introduction was that my Shifu was in search for fighting applications as his lifestyle had left no time to spend otherwise. Hsu Shifu knew of Xun Shifu’s reputation, and the agreement was made. Puyot would commit his loyalty, tuition, and most importantly, hard work. The trade was for 8 Step Mantis fighting experience.

Generally, Shifu Tony Puyot prefers to remain underground. I know many current 8 Step people may discredit him as he is not listed as an “official” Xun representative. However, I have in my possession a traditional photo of my Shifu standing by the 8 step banner with Xun Shifu seated in a formal manner. I would need permission from both my Shifu and Xun Shifu to present such “evidence”. However, every attempt I’ve made to contact the orignal location (I beleive its the location near the "ABC’ restaurant…near the beach), has failed. I’ve left messages and have received no response. I do not want to disrespect the current instructors if I was to contact Xun Shifu directly. I would appreciate any help before I make that decision.

I am proud of my lineage, and I am honored to be a disciple of Shifu Tony Puyot. However, I will not let my pride blind me to education, nor will I let education effect my pride. Lapu Lapu, I am grateful for your insight, and I hope the 8 Step community will soon find a cohesive venue for the sake of Wei Shigong and his teachings.

Earth Dragon:
When I was much younger, my Shifu made reference to a school brother named “Dean”. Could this be the same individual? If so, please give him our regards.

M.Dasargo

I must repeat myself to those who read what they want to read and do not see the truth. I have no problem with there being other 8 Step roots. My problem is that there is a minority that can’t speak about 8 Step without taking personal shots at Master Sun’s (Yes, I do know that I do not spell “Sun” politically correct) 8 Step system (and his students) every chance they get.

From lapu_squared:

Although James Shyun has only visited GM Wei’s tomb once in the last 20 years as far as Shifu Chang knows, and has never contributed to its maintenance

This is a personal Jab

A few years ago, some of GM Wei’s former students chose not to turn that blind eye anymore when James Shyun decided to trademark “8 Step Praying Mantis” and require payments to teach 8 Step. As some of you are aware, this conflict led to lawsuits and many personal attacks over the Internet.

Again, Who won the Lawsuits?

Shifu Chang’s approach to combatting any untruths about 8 Step or GM Wei has always been to spread truths that can compete on their merits to counteract those untruths, rather than resorting to personal attacks.

Saying you are searching for truth sounds good, but our personal beliefs always seem to color our words. As for the last part, refer to the first quote.

Hopefully this information will raise awareness of the greater 8 Step community, which may be a good deal smaller than the number of James Shyun’s students, and perhaps less outspoken, but still has much to offer in the way of knowledge about GM Wei’s teachings.

I have never been afraid of knowledge or truth. I do enjoy being a part of the mantis family. The whole family. I just wish that people would not be blinded by pride.

I am not going to even comment about EarthDragon’s comments. I understand he has many issues with Master Sun and likes to express them.

From Forkintheroad:

Oh I would not call the Tibute page to Grand Master Wei, an 8 step knock off page, there is actually information on the tribute page, and not just somebody bragging about how wonderful they are.

The Tibute page to Grand Master Wei was very nice. I have no problem with this site. I was commenting on using some form of 8 Step as a web page link, when your school is not under that title. If you were truthful, you would have mentioned that I never said anything about the page you are redirected to. I did not even mention the name of the page you are redirected to after clicking on 8-step.com.

In closing, I guess I have to admit I may be a little sensitive about 8 Step lately. Ever since I came to this forum, I have seen a few that constantly bash Master Sun and the 8 Step school with no recourse from the admin here, other than locking a post after a while. It is very hard to sit by and let untruths from a few just keep going unchecked. If I have taken anyone’s comments out of the spirit it was meant, then I apologize.

a bit on the lighter side

Mr. Dasargo

I had the pleasure of meeting Shifu Puyot at the conference in Ohio. By the luck of the draw, I got to sit and have lunch with him, sort of one on one. He is a remarkable man. We had a very nice conversation over lunch and I took away from that little hour spent with him a few treasures. We then went outside and exchanged our versions of Qi-Shou… he was full of positive comments. I hope to see him again someday, give him my regards.

Pilot
I do not see the “untruths” you speak of!!?? Mr. Chang says Sun has not been to Wei’s tomb to help with it’s maintanance in 20 years, seems kind of factual to me. No one is making personal jabs, just stating facts and leaving everyone to decide for themselves.
I actually think everyone has been cool with Sun so far. NO ONE has ever critiqued his abilities or skill, but rather questioned his honesty with making claims on being the “sole” inheritor (if someone really needs me to explain how ludicrus this is, then just say so), and the “only” true represenative of Babu in the US! If someone is going to make silly remarks like those in public, then that person better be prepared to prove his legitamacy!
As for your comment about being part of the family…got a question for you;
How much money does it take to be part of any martial family? One topic that you students of Sun have side stepped is the ridiculous amounts of money that he charges to be part of the club! Are you willing to go into detail as to how much and why those crazy amounts are charged? I have to admit when I hear someone charing exzuberant(?) amounts of cash to be part of anything, I immediately start to wonder. Not that Sun (or any one else for that matter) does not have the right ot make a good living, but I have heard that “dues” are in the thousands, and even certain uniforms and pins are available but only if you pay X amount. So I think this issue has raised a lot of eyebrows as well (I know it has with me anyways). Care to elaborate?

So in closing quit your whining, because no one has attacked your teacher here. Trust me, look up some of the other threads that are much worse. To be honest it would be nice to hear your teacher himself speak up, but I understand that may not be doable.

My 2 cents worth,
Jake :cool:

Pilot,
I noticed you asked “who won the lawsuits”? I’ve been wondering the same thing, I figured Sun lost, or you and Andy Miles would’ve been all over the forum, stating how that prooved he was the sole… I can’t even finish that line.

Mr Desargo,
Please say hi to tony for me. I met him many years ago in the Irving street school upstairs and still have him on tape doing the 40 throws on the the blue carpet.

Ask him hwe will remember, also mention that I was around in the years of robert the photographer 1986-87-88
He took all the large pictures 24 x36 of the then young shyun 4 of which I still own and have hanging in my school.

I beleive I am the only one who has these prints as well as the original magazines autographed by Shyun. Tony should remember all thsese things, and yes Dean is tony’s 5th generation kung fu brother and the starter of the ACMAF

he is part of the original group of students from the 80’s dean then moved to Buffalo and produced 5 sifu of his own those being kevin, george , steve, jack, and jerry. I got raqnked up to 5th silver then was fortunate enough to be accpeted to move to SF and live at teh school and got ranked shrfu dircetly from shyun as did only 3 people in the US the old fashion wa, , up until the money making scheme came into play.

three harmonies
I can tell you about thse money schemes as I know first hand.

  1. federation dues 100.00 month to call your kwon kung fu usa, supposed to pay for flight and lodging for the annual sifu camp.. IT DOES NOT

  2. shrfu uniform embroidered 450.00

  3. solid gold mantis sifu pin 250.00 it is plated brass, I took mine to a jeweler.

  4. grade testing 35.00 for sash and certificate, OK this one is ledgite

  5. shrfu test 5,000.00 OK this one just sucks fro everyone

  6. monthly collections for mantis mountian varies

those are right off the top of my head, those who do not comply with these fee’s/ dues even though they are certified 8 step shrfu’s and instructors are not even listed on the 8 step website.. howeve4r i was sent a letter that if i would like to pay 1,200.00 for past federation dues m name would be included on the site… I CHOOSE NOT TO…