Zhou Tong - Teacher of Gen. Yue Fei

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Hey Guys,

I am currently writing an article about Zhou Tong on wikipedia. Many of you might have seen it in the past, but I’ve recently made some HUGE changes to it. It covers both the “historical” and the “fictional” aspects of this man. I tried to keep a balance as much as I could. However, I think you guys will be extremely suprised with my research. The Zhou Tong that you think you know and love is largely FICTIONAL!

I have sections about what historical text and or individual Yue Fei biographies that he has appeared in. I also comment on the martial arts attributed to him. Some of you may not know, but Zhou Tong even has his own “fictional” wuxia biography. It is called Ti Bèi Jn Do Zhu Tóng Zhuàn ( - “Iron Arm, Golden Broadsword: The Biography of Zhou Tong”) and it was published in 1986. I have my own personal copy of it, but since my chinese is poor, it will take me a while to read it!

I’m looking for some serious feedback on the page’s strengths and weaknesses. Please keep in mind that the page is still a “work-in-progress”. I change or add new material as it comes available. If you see something lacking from the page that you would like to see added, just leave me an email. But keep in mind that it has to have a solid source and not just something that you heard from a sparring buddy!

Here is the url - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Tong_%28Shaolin_Monk%29

I left something similar to this on wikipedia’s martial arts page and not a single person wrote me back. I’m hoping that I will get more hits on this forum. For those of you that know him, Sal Canzonieri (I hope I spelled that right) likes the page and provided me with material that I just added to the page today!

Sal, if you read this and I misspelled your name, my last name is McClanahan, so mine is butchered all the time!

2

Some info may appear here:
http://www.satirio.com/ma/chuojiao/history.html

3

Nice work.

Just a few comments:

Xiang is a problematic word for westerners. It’s not just “elephants”.

Xiang Xue (the art of face reading) is one of the many fortune telling methods of Chinese people. Actually face reading is a bit of a misnomer because it’s also about observing behaviour for rendering judgement on someone’s fortune.

Another definition of Xiang is that it is a part of the study of Yijing (classic of change). Many masters of Chinese martial arts especially those who taught military arts (ie archery, riding, etc) would have studied the Yijing as well. This is because Yijing study is crucial to military strategists.

I have read a book about the Eagle Claw Fanzi that translated Xiang Xing Quan as “elephant style fist” which couldn’t be more eroneous. Xiang Xing Quan simply meants that a style of boxing that’s imitates animal behaviour or spirit.

The truth of the matter is that Zhou Tong would have been more than likely a martial arts teacher who was also teaching military strategy instead of being a monk. But Henan province especially Shaolin Temple for the reason of attracting more tourist dallors laid claims to the arts Zhou Tong taught to the famous General Yue.

just a few thoughts to share.

Mantis108

4

[QUOTE=Shaolin Master;712110]Some info may appear here:
http://www.satirio.com/ma/chuojiao/history.html[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the information. I like the article, however the first part of it seems to have been “cut and pasted” from areas of my Zhou Tong article, including a picture with the exact same caption, as well as other articles from wikipedia. I’ve been editing on wikipedia for a while and I can say with all confidence that NO ONE should cite wikipedia as a source! Even the creator of wikipedia says the same thing. He views wikipedia as a “beginning” and not an “end” to someone’s research. Now I’m not saying that my info is incorrect, but most of it is fictional (as I stated in the article). There is VERY little written about Zhou Tong in actual historical texts.

5

[QUOTE=mantis108;712114]Nice work.

Just a few comments:

Xiang is a problematic word for westerners. It’s not just “elephants”.

Xiang Xue (the art of face reading) is one of the many fortune telling methods of Chinese people. Actually face reading is a bit of a misnomer because it’s also about observing behaviour for rendering judgement on someone’s fortune.

Another definition of Xiang is that it is a part of the study of Yijing (classic of change). Many masters of Chinese martial arts especially those who taught military arts (ie archery, riding, etc) would have studied the Yijing as well. This is because Yijing study is crucial to military strategists.

I have read a book about the Eagle Claw Fanzi that translated Xiang Xing Quan as “elephant style fist” which couldn’t be more eroneous. Xiang Xing Quan simply meants that a style of boxing that’s imitates animal behaviour or spirit.

The truth of the matter is that Zhou Tong would have been more than likely a martial arts teacher who was also teaching military strategy instead of being a monk. But Henan province especially Shaolin Temple for the reason of attracting more tourist dallors laid claims to the arts Zhou Tong taught to the famous General Yue.

just a few thoughts to share.

Mantis108[/QUOTE]

Could you direct me to a solid source that mentions “Xiang Xing Qian” in reference to the imitation of a generalized animal spirit or behavior? I would like to note this in the article. I have heard of this myself, but Elephant seems to be the overall consensus in the western world (though it might be wrong).

Also, could you direct me to a solid source that shows the Shaolin Temple actually claims Zhou Tong as Yue Fei’s teacher? If I can connect when this association first took place, I can place when people started referring to Zhou Tong as a “Shaolin Monk”. As I stated in the “Fact or Fiction” section, the Yue Fei biography () that first appeared in the Yuan dynasty’s History of the Song (), Zhou Tong is ONLY represented as Yue Fei’s archery teacher and nothing more. So in the article, I can say, between this time and this time, Zhou Tong was considered just an archer or military man, but after this date, he was considered a Shaolin monk.

Thanks for brining my attention to this material! I have heard of this, but I always thought it was a legend with no real source. I didn’t realize the Shaolin temple actually laid claim to this. Wow, a legend with a source, who would of thought?

6

Does anyone know the actual source for the legend that Zhou Tong also taught the future-bandits Wu Song, Lin Chong, and Lu Junyi? I originally found the info on the very same Xingyi page that mentioned Zhou Tong was an Abbot of Shaolin. I’m sure they got their info about these students somewhere.

7

[QUOTE=ghostexorcist;712264]Does anyone know the actual source for the legend that Zhou Tong also taught the future-bandits Wu Song, Lin Chong, and Lu Junyi? I originally found the info on the very same Xingyi page that mentioned Zhou Tong was an Abbot of Shaolin. I’m sure they got their info about these students somewhere.[/QUOTE]

Just a quick thought. Here’s the Chinese article concerning the real person Wu Song

     2716

“”“”“”“”“”……“”

“”“”“”“”“”

The real Wu Song was a kind of a police captain in the Heng Zhou perfecture. He ended up killing the corrupted new head of the perfecture (nicknamed Cai Hu - Tiger with the Cai Surename) in the manner of a vigilante justice for the people. He died by torture while in jail as he was capture at the scene.

Much of his exploits in the “Water Margin” are embellished and fictional tales based on the four local record books listed in the in Chinese text.

Regards

Mantis108

8

[SIZE=“2”]Sal Canzonieri recommended the following books as the introductions tell the legend of how Deng Liang taught Zhou tong Chuo Jiao. According to the legend, Deng Liang is the creator of Chuo Jiao.

Jiuzhuan Lianhuan Yuanyangtui
ISBN 7-5009-1096-7

Chuo Jiao Fan Tzi
ISBN: 7-5009-2366-X

The info from the first book sounds exactly the same as that from this sight: http://www.chinavoc.com/kungfu/schools/cata_chj.asp

Does anyone have access to these books? He gave me an internet address (http://www.plumpub.com/sales/books.htm) where I could buy the books myself, but I can’t locate them on the site. Plus, they are in Chinese and mine is pretty bad. I would like to add some of the information from the intros into my article. Thanks.[/SIZE]

9

Ghost exorcist,

Excuse me :mad: , but that picture was taken personally at the Yue Fei Musuem, Hangzhou in 2003…In fact if you look at the quality of the picture (yours is distorted in dimensions and pixels, and the lighting is different you can tell). There are many murals and that is the only one that depicts Zhou Tong teaching Yue Fei and in fact it is by coincidence that caption description is the same.

The text alludes to military strategy, yours attempted specifc arts…so be very mindful before such a silly statement is made. Our text is a summary from the combination of verbal, chuojiao articles and texts in chinese … also note the segment title ‘legendary origins’…

Lastly, I agree with Mantis108,…the ‘shaolin’ abbotthood thing is completely bogus,…
The Zhou Quan Tui is also bogus…also, Xiang is not elephant…it is reference to imitation (xiangxingquan)

10

[QUOTE=Shaolin Master;712542]Ghost exorcist,

Excuse me :mad: , but that picture was taken personally at the Yue Fei Musuem, Hangzhou in 2003…In fact if you look at the quality of the picture (yours is distorted in dimensions and pixels, and the lighting is different you can tell). There are many murals and that is the only one that depicts Zhou Tong teaching Yue Fei and in fact it is by coincidence that caption description is the same.

The text alludes to military strategy, yours attempted specifc arts…so be very mindful before such a silly statement is made. Our text is a summary from the combination of verbal, chuojiao articles and texts in chinese … also note the segment title ‘legendary origins’…

Lastly, I agree with Mantis108,…the ‘shaolin’ abbotthood thing is completely bogus,…
The Zhou Quan Tui is also bogus…also, Xiang is not elephant…it is reference to imitation (xiangxingquan)[/QUOTE]

Woooooo, calm down. You took my “silly” comments the wrong way!!! If I hurt your feelings I am sorry. I wasn’t trying to step on anyone’s toes. You must admit though that the picture (though with different pixels) and the captions are very similar. Plus, the beginning information is very similar to my own. I didn’t create the info, and I’m sure both of ours came from the same place. Sal Canzonieri pointed me in the direction of a certain Chuojiao book which mentions Deng Liang and all of that material.

In regards to the “abbot” thing, I think I’ve clearly stated that all of this is legend in the very beginning and throughout various parts of the article:

There are no Song Dynasty records that concretely show he was in fact a Shaolin monk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Tong_%28Shaolin_Monk%29#Fact_or_Fiction.3F

Resignation

According to the Master Cai Wen Yu’s Association, Zhou Tong resigned from his Shaolin Abbotship for “political reasons that affected China at the time”.[13] These “political reasons” might refer to the decline of Buddhism during the Song Dynasty, which was caused by the backlash of various Buddhist persecutions and the rise of Neo-Confucianism.[20]

Neither of the or • biographies even mention Zhou Tong being a Shaolin monk, let alone an abbot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Tong_%28Shaolin_Monk%29#Resignation

I even stated in the last part of the “Fact or Fiction” section of the article that Yue Fei’s biography ONLY mentions Zhou Tong as Yue Fei’s archery teacher and nothing more. In my “attempted” “Shaolin Skills” section, I stated that no other martial arts were associated with Zhou Tong in the same biography.

I put the “Shaolin Abbot” information in there because I believe all areas of the Zhou Tong “legend” should be covered. I’ve contacted the organization where I got this info in regards to the source of their belief in this matter. I hope to hear back from them soon. Also, if you will refer back to some of my original comments…

[QUOTE=ghostexorcist;712263]Could you direct me to a solid source that mentions “Xiang Xing Qian” in reference to the imitation of a generalized animal spirit or behavior? I would like to note this in the article. I have heard of this myself, but Elephant seems to be the overall consensus in the western world (though it might be wrong).[/QUOTE]

…You will see that I’ve already looked into this. Again, I would like to apologize for upsetting you. If you or Mantis108 could point me in the direction of the “Xiang Xing Quan” info I would greatly appreciate it. In fact, any other material that you know of in reference to Zhou Tong would be graciously accepted.

11

[QUOTE=ghostexorcist;712263]Could you direct me to a solid source that mentions “Xiang Xing Qian” in reference to the imitation of a generalized animal spirit or behavior? I would like to note this in the article. I have heard of this myself, but Elephant seems to be the overall consensus in the western world (though it might be wrong). [/QUOTE]

I’ve found one page that mentions this and I’ve made changes to my article to show the “elephant” might refer to Xiang Xing Quan. I would like to see other pages that mention this as well. Also, I know the characters for “Xiang” and “Quan”, but I am unsure of the correct character for “Xing”. Could somebody help me out?

12

(Xiangxingquan)

13

Xiang Xing Quan

Xiang Xing Quan ( ) is more or less a contemporary term for a category of pugilistic systems and styles. It is almost a common knowledge amongst TCMA practitioners that there are styles available that imitate animal spirit or movements. For example Monkey, Eagle, Mantis, Dragon, Tiger, Crane, etc are all Xiang Xing Quan. No one in the Kung Fu community really bother to specifically “define” these as Xiang Xing Quan because it’s common knowledge. However, since you are interested in “scholarly research” I think you can find the term in Chapter 5 of a Chinese book called “Zhongguo Gongfu Baiyangtong” WongTing Bianzhu Changzhen ChubanShe [ISBN -7-80015-299-5]. This book is first published in July, 1994 from mainland China. Now, you would have to be able to read Chinese though.

On a different note, it is extremely difficult to verify or investigate a system or style lineage that are older than Ming (1368-1644 CE). Anytime a system or a style claims to be associated with certain people famous or otherwise as progenitor, it is possible to check the local records of such as the county gazettes for the activities of the said people (unless of course it’s “legendary”). Sometimes if you are lucky, you would have family records available. So…

Many styles claims to be originated during Song dynasty because of the rise of a school of thought known as Xiang Shu Xue Pai (Phenomena & Mathematics academia) that is considered a key element of Neo-Confucianism. Many of the theories found in TCMA are based on this school of thought (ie Taiji Tu Shuo - Discourse on Taiji Diagram).

So most of the legend of the styles (oral or otherwise) can only be taking with a grain of salt until proven otherwise.

Regards

Mantis108

14

Almost forgot …

There’s an alternate name of (Jiu Zhi Zi) which is . (pronounced as Zu) is kicking as in the popular sport of kicking a soccer ball like leather ball () during the Song dynasty that is also mentioned in the “water margin”. If you observe the kicking techniques of the Chuojiao you would notice the remarkable resemblance of kicking soccer.

So the being derived from mathematic discipline and such is properly a move to make the style sound more scholarly credible.

Regards

Mantis108

15

[QUOTE=mantis108;712578]Almost forgot …

There’s an alternate name of (Jiu Zhi Zi) which is . (pronounced as Zu) is kicking as in the popular sport of kicking a soccer ball like leather ball () during the Song dynasty that is also mentioned in the “water margin”. [/QUOTE]

Interesting. Didn’t know that. Thanks. Could you tell where this info comes from? Just curious.

ghostexorsist,

in that wikipedia article there’s this part mentioning his strenght or ability as an archer. In think that it is not that he could fire 8 stones with a sling, but rather bend a crossbow with a draw weight of 8 stones, where a ‘stone’ is a weight measure. You might go to atarn.net and ask some competent people there too.

16

[QUOTE=taaigihk;712632]Interesting. Didn’t know that. Thanks. Could you tell where this info comes from? Just curious.

ghostexorsist,

in that wikipedia article there’s this part mentioning his strenght or ability as an archer. In think that it is not that he could fire 8 stones with a sling, but rather bend a crossbow with a draw weight of 8 stones, where a ‘stone’ is a weight measure. You might go to atarn.net and ask some competent people there too.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I originally had the translation as “pull a crossbow of 8 Shi” but a Chinese acquaintance on Wikipedia translated it as the current version. I guess my translation was more correct. I think he was trying to translate it in such a way that westerners might recognize. I’ll change it back.

17

[QUOTE=Shaolin Master;712567] (Xiangxingquan)[/QUOTE]

What would be the best way of translating ? “Image Form Boxing”?

18

Imitation Boxing.

Regarding , that is correct in the water margin there is ample depiction of that skill (like the shuttleball game that we played in high school)…

19

I rearranged portions of the page to bring an even greater balance to some of the historical and fictional information. But most importantly, I added a small paragraph detailing Zhou Tong’s connections with Praying Mantis boxing. Its at the bottom of the Martial arts section.

According to the Praying Mantis Boxing Manual, written in 1794, Abbot Fuyu invited 18 masters to Shaolin. Some of Zhou Tong’s students were among those invited. And before anyone says anything, I realize that this meeting was probably a legend. The historical Fuyu lived from 1203-1275, so the gathering could not have taken place in the early Song Dynasty like it is stated in the numerous variations of this legend. It is also erroneous because Zhou Tongs students would have died of old age by the time Abbot Fuyu held this gathering in the mid late 13th century. Either it happened at the end of the Song Dynasty or not at all. (I hope I got the character right for pu from the Tanglang quan pu. Someone please tell me if I did or not.)

I would also like to note that I added the “Xiang Xing Quan” information as a footnote at the bottom of the page. I did, however, add it to the main eagle claw page where it actually belongs.

20

According to the Praying Mantis Boxing Manual, written in 1794, Abbot Fuyu invited 18 masters to Shaolin. Some of Zhou Tong’s students were among those invited. And before anyone says anything, I realize that this meeting was probably a legend. The historical Fuyu lived from 1203-1275, so the gathering could not have taken place in the early Song Dynasty like it is stated in the numerous variations of this legend. It is also erroneous because Zhou Tong’s students would have died of old age by the time Abbot Fuyu held this gathering in the mid – late 13th century. Either it happened at the end of the Song Dynasty or not at all. (I hope I got the character right for “pu” from the Tanglang quan pu. Someone please tell me if I did or not.)

I believe you are talking about the “Luohan Xinggong Duan Da” Manual which has many versions available. It is a “folk” martial arts manuscript as oppose to “government” sanctioned ones such as the Ming dynasty “Ji Xiao Xin Shu”.

The manuscript is said to be edited by Shengxiao Daoren who claimed to have “learned” from Fuju (fortune resides) not Fuyu (fortune afluent). Fuju is more than likely a fictional character as with the many fictional characters in “18 families” sonnet or it’s a character based on the historical Fuyu. At least 5 to 6 characters (1/3) amongst the 18 are fictional characters from different novels: 3 - 4 from Fei Long Quan Zhuan (a tale of Song Taizu) and 2 from the water margin.

The purpose of the 18 families is to “introduce” the so called Tanglang Shou Fa (mantis techniques) of Wanglang, which would seem to have been based on the indigeneous Kung Fu of Shandong - Luohan Xinggong Duanda. Further explanations of the Tanglang Shou Fa is echoed by the paragraphes such as the “Shou Fa Zhong Lun” that follow. So the manuscript is really well put together despite some borrowing of fictional material.

BTW, Tanglang Quanpu is another manuscript date 1935 by a famous Tanglang master named Cui Shoushan. Tanglang Quanpu is rather a semi private manuscript.

Regards

Mantis108