Can anyone supply info about this branch of N Mantis - Tai Zu Tang Lang (Great Ancestor Mantis)?
Who was founder, where is it from? Lineage info, etc.
Does either of these sets look familiar to anyone, especially the second one?
Non of the core Mantis forms - Bengbu, Luanjie, Bazhou, and Zhaiyao (1-7) that I am aware of plays or runs like headless chicken dances such as those in the clips which are more modern Wushu rendition than anything else IMHO. So I would say there’s nothing mantis in those forms. Sorry to disappoint you.
BTW, the clips said Tai Zu Chang Quan. I have seem some Southern Taizu that has that awkard sweep move that repeated so many times. Other than then, I know nothing much about Tai Zu.
Warm regards
Mantis108
[QUOTE=mantis108;804908]Non of the core Mantis forms - Bengbu, Luanjie, Bazhou, and Zhaiyao (1-7) that I am aware of plays or runs like headless chicken dances such as those in the clips which are more modern Wushu rendition than anything else IMHO. So I would say there’s nothing mantis in those forms. Sorry to disappoint you.
BTW, the clips said Tai Zu Chang Quan. I have seem some Southern Taizu that has that awkard sweep move that repeated so many times. Other than then, I know nothing much about Tai Zu.
Warm regards
Mantis108[/QUOTE]
hehe, I know the quality isn’t good, but the second section was with mantis hands mostly (maybe image too small to see well?). I will post another person doing the same sets that you can see better.
Well, regardless of this form, I have heard of Tai Zu Mantis style from Shandong I think, can anyone let me know about this style if they have information?
Is that a Tai Tzu system with a few mantis forms, or a Mantis system with a few tai tzu forms?
[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;804957]Is that a Tai Tzu system with a few mantis forms, or a Mantis system with a few tai tzu forms?[/QUOTE]
There is a mantis style where the founder was a TZ Quan person and then learned N Mantis (7 Star) and merged them together, since TZ is the number one root of the 18 masters.
Beyond pre-division Tanglang there is really only Qixing, Meihua (includingTaiji- both branches,TJMH, Mimen), Liuhe, and a few schools which are minor variations of the main three such as Guangban, Babu, Yuanyang. Pretty much anything outside of that is a modern composite.
BT
[QUOTE=B.Tunks;804998]Beyond pre-division Tanglang there is really only Qixing, Meihua (includingTaiji- both branches,TJMH, Mimen), Liuhe, and a few schools which are minor variations of the main three such as Guangban, Babu, Yuanyang. Pretty much anything outside of that is a modern composite.
BT[/QUOTE]
I know that, thanks.
I am looking for info on this particular style of mantis.
Anhui province has Shaolin Mantis style, which combined 7 star and local shaolin.
I’m looking for info on where and when and who Tai Tzu Mantis is from, thanks.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;805004]I know that, thanks.
I am looking for info on this particular style of mantis.
Anhui province has Shaolin Mantis style, which combined 7 star and local shaolin.
I’m looking for info on where and when and who Tai Tzu Mantis is from, thanks.[/QUOTE]
I know you knew that. Some people don’t though and therefore won’t know this style is bogus. Which Anhui Shaolin Tanglang are you referring to? Authentic Tanglang in Anhui and Henan comes via Qingdao as recently as the early 80’s.
[QUOTE=B.Tunks;805011]I know you knew that. Some people don’t though and therefore won’t know this style is bogus. Which Anhui Shaolin Tanglang are you referring to? Authentic Tanglang in Anhui and Henan comes via Qingdao as recently as the early 80’s.[/QUOTE]
and very little of what is there now resembles what it was then.
I myself am interested in the origne of those forms you linked to more than anything.
Are they a recent thing? or ancient? and more importantly, WHAT are they?
[QUOTE=B.Tunks;805011]I know you knew that. Some people don’t though and therefore won’t know this style is bogus. Which Anhui Shaolin Tanglang are you referring to? Authentic Tanglang in Anhui and Henan comes via Qingdao as recently as the early 80’s.[/QUOTE]
Why do you say this style is bogus?
It’s not, it’s from a legit lineage, I had read an article in a Chinese martial art magazine about it years ago, and I am interested in finding out about it’s history.
It is from 1900s, not that modern.
Shantong province also has Di Tang Mantis style, which I am interested in hearing about as well.
There is also Tong Bei Mantis out there as well.
There is Hua Lin Mantis in Shantung too.
I am interested in gathering info on the more obscure styles of Mantis.
Just because you never heard of something doesn’t make it bogus, strange that you would say that about something with no info to back that up.
Shaolin Mantis system:
It is found spread in the area of Suxian, Hefei and Fengzhao of Anhui, Nanjing, Xuzhou, and Huaiyin of Jiangsu.
One of the people that developed it was Bo Jian Ming.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;804642]Does either of these sets look familiar to anyone, especially the second one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNO2zOok9pM[/QUOTE]
I am looking into the origin of these two sets.
They have the opening and ending salutes of Shantong Long Fist Mantis, like Xiao Hu Yan, and so on, like Shantong Tai Zu Quan does, of Yang Jing Ming’s lineage.
The first set looks remarkably like Xiao Fan Che set of Northern Mantis.
Compare the first set in that link to the Fan Che set from Mantis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFb9Pyole6Y (this one has that same Shantong salute, as also seen in the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan sets in the above link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAJ9HEdonms
The TZ Chang Quan set 1 follows the Mantis Xiao Fan Che set very closely, most of the movements are in the same sequence even.
Set 2 is like this mantis form a lot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GJc8R1DN8s
Something I’ve never heard of is Shantong mantis.
There is no Hualin Tanglang in Shandong. Guaranteed. Ditang Tanglang is a new creation too (real ditang of TLQ comes in 7 Zhaiyao of TJTL). Maybe go to Shandong and have a first hand look instead of reading articles, the majority of which in Chinese publications and websites are complete garbage. You can find, Beggar, Bagua, Xingyi and about 20 other combinations of Tanglang that have popped up in the last couple of decades (and have retrospectively backdated their origins).
Nothing personal, just a counter view.
BT
[QUOTE=B.Tunks;805036]Something I’ve never heard of is Shantong mantis.
There is no Hualin Tanglang in Shandong. Guaranteed. Ditang Tanglang is a new creation too (real ditang of TLQ comes in 7 Zhaiyao of TJTL). Maybe go to Shandong and have a first hand look instead of reading articles, the majority of which in Chinese publications and websites are complete garbage. You can find, Beggar, Bagua, Xingyi and about 20 other combinations of Tanglang that have popped up in the last couple of decades (and have retrospectively backdated their origins).
Nothing personal, just a counter view.
BT[/QUOTE]
having said that, there is of course nothing wrong with researching these obscure variations and i will be very interested to read outcomes.
Hi Sal,
I second what Brendan said and I advice to listen to what he have to say especially concerning mantis and Henan Shaolin development.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;805023]I am looking into the origin of these two sets.
They have the opening and ending salutes of Shantong Long Fist Mantis, like Xiao Hu Yan, and so on, like Shantong Tai Zu Quan does, of Yang Jing Ming’s lineage.[/quote]
The so-called Long Fist Mantis is actually Meihua Tanglang. The lineage came from Liang Xue Xiang’s Son Liang Jing Chuan and eventually was brought to Taiwan by Wang Song Ting. The name Chang Quan Tanglang was coined to discern it from other school due to Taiwan government wanted all of the Kung Fu schools to registered but the Meihua Tanglang has already been registered. Xiao Hu Yan is a popular form. I believe its origin is from Shandong Sun Bin Quan (also categorized as Chang Quan). Sun Bin Quan, I believe is taught in armed escort agencies in the Shandong region. Just like San Huang Pao Chui is popular in Beijing’s armed escort companies. Opening and ending salutes often are generic in nature in the armed escort companies. What they care about is the form’s effectiveness.
The first set looks remarkably like Xiao Fan Che set of Northern Mantis.
Compare the first set in that link to the Fan Che set from Mantis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFb9Pyole6Y (this one has that same Shantong salute, as also seen in the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan sets in the above link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAJ9HEdonms
The first link is from Qixing Tanglang. The second is from my style. Xiao Fan Che (and other forms) is later dropped from our curriculum. This footage is from a grandstudent of Grandmaster Chiu in Macau. The form is played with the older flavor of GM Chiu that is consistent with the Vietnam period flavor.
The TZ Chang Quan set 1 follows the Mantis Xiao Fan Che set very closely, most of the movements are in the same sequence even.
I am sorry. I failed to see any resemblance with the TZCQ. May be I was looking at a different clip?
Set 2 is like this mantis form a lot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GJc8R1DN8s
My friend, I would not recommend using that form to support your arguement. That particular school is known to me. I am sorry I can’t vouche for all it’s material as they have mutiple sources of martial arts and their higher ups are known to be quite creative when it come to forms and systems. Nothing wrong with them, I suppose but it’s not my cup of tea. So…
Just as Brendan said - don’t believe everything you watch or read out there.
Warm regards
Mantis108
Well, I am just exploring, not making any statements nor any arguments.
What I am doing is trying to figure out what these two sets are of this “Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan”.
The TZ video I posted is only the second time i have ever seen these two sets, and they do not look anything like other Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan sets that I am familiar with.
In my opinion, they look very much like something related to N Mantis from Shantung, especially of the “Long Fist Mantis” material, more than they do Shaolin TZ stuff.
The sets have the mantis hands in them (hard to see in the clip) and other movements that I have seen only in mantis forms, not Shaolin TZ Chang Chuan forms.
I haven’t been able to find the origin of these TZ sets.
I found it weird that the only set out there that looks like the first one is the Xiao Fan Che set of mantis.
I will post a better version of those sets.
I am curious if any mantis people can recognize anything from these 2 supposed TZ chang quan sets.
I know that there is a Tai Zu Mantis style, it goes back about 5 generations.
I am curious to learn more about the origin of this type of mantis.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;805050]Well, I am just exploring, not making any statements nor any arguments.
What I am doing is trying to figure out what these two sets are of this “Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan”.[/quote]
In that case, my friend, I have nothing to offer. Personally, the whole “Shaolin” thing is FUBAR as far as I am concern. So I won’t lose any sleep over any claim of Shaolin lineage of any style if I were you.
The TZ video I posted is only the second time i have ever seen these two sets, and they do not look anything like other Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan sets that I am familiar with.
I hear you.
In my opinion, they look very much like something related to N Mantis from Shantung, especially of the “Long Fist Mantis” material, more than they do Shaolin TZ stuff.
As I have said before Changquan Tanglang is essentially Meihua Tanglang from Shandong but got the name registered in Taiwan.
The sets have the mantis hands in them (hard to see in the clip) and other movements that I have seen only in mantis forms, not Shaolin TZ Chang Chuan forms.
There is a difference between having the mantis shape hand in the form and actually having the mantis signature moves and/or combinations moves, or what I would call the DNA of mantis (ie Hook Grab Pluck, feng bi yuan yang jiao, Beng Dian Bian Yuhuan, etc). Having the mantis shape hand formation don’t mean anything other than someone trying to mimic mantis form as far as I am concern.
I haven’t been able to find the origin of these TZ sets.
Good luck in your search.
I found it weird that the only set out there that looks like the first one is the Xiao Fan Che set of mantis.
The truth of the matter is Xiao Fan Che’s origin is unknown. From the techniques that are found in the form, we can get a guestimate that it’s more than likely related to Fanzi not Tai zu (the high frequency of Yi Bu San Chui is a tell tale sign in my mind). If you ask me, it’s an excellent entry level form to get an ideal of what Duan Da (short strike) is about. I would go as far as to say that Xiao Fan Che was taught in armed escort companies in Yantai, old capital city of Shandong. Liang Xue Xiang could have learned it when he was working in the trade. This is why his mantis manuscript doesn’t recognize it as mantis origin as taught by Wang Lang. Only Bengbu, Luanjie, Bazhou and Mishou were recognized as mantis from Wang Lang according to Liang Xue Xiang.
I will post a better version of those sets.
By all means and thank you.
I am curious if any mantis people can recognize anything from these 2 supposed TZ chang quan sets.
I know that there is a Tai Zu Mantis style, it goes back about 5 generations.
I am curious to learn more about the origin of this type of mantis.
Sorry, I have not heard of Tai Zu Mantis ever. But then what do I know? so…
Good luck, God bless and all…
Warm regards
Mantis108
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;805050]
In my opinion, they look very much like something related to N Mantis from Shantung, especially of the “Long Fist Mantis” material, more than they do Shaolin TZ stuff.
[/QUOTE]
They do look like Northern styles I have seen in Taiwan.
Especially the second one looking like some versions of four road running strike I have see.
But it seems as if it was a northern long fist style with some mantis moves put on.
Though first clip did have some odd moves, it does look like the type of long fist that I have seen in Taiwan before.
Similar to forms I have learned.
But I do not see much of a relationship to xiao fanche.
Sal - you read too many books and come off sounding like you are full of sh1t. If you believe everything read in those wushu magazines and books then you really are completely lost. Your quest for the original root system is really tired too - especially when you base most of it on stupid forms. Real amature.
I remember last time you filled a lot of pages with a lot of sh1t about taizu, and tongbei and mantis. You even pulled some stuff (the only good stuff by the way) from Brendons sitebut did not even quote him. Low end.
Nate