Does anyone know of resources that compare and contrast zen and daoism?
Also, does anyone know of any resources that compare and contrast the eastern mysticisms/ philosophies such as: Buddhism, yoga (many different forms), Advaita Vedanta (and the Vedics), Brahmanism, Jainism, shamanism, and Hinduist branches?
Iam not and expert in eastern phylosophy, but Zen is the japanese word for Chan Buddhism. Daoism is the native philosophy/religion of china which is based on the Tao, or way, yin yang, etc…
Check out this refference book
Great Thinkers of the Eastern World
Editor: Ian P. McGreal
Publishers: HarperCollins
10 East 53rd Street
New York, NY 10022
Sorry no phone number. It might be available online. I got my copy through the One Spirit Book Club.
I figure I’d bring up my old post being there are a lot of new people to this forum who may be able to provide input.
sorry, no input…
but it’s a great question.
i’ve always felt zen buddhism and taoism to be extremely similar in a lot of ways.
___________________________________________________________________________ “I’m just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!”
At higher levels, one sees the higher unity in things that appear different at lower levels. Case-in-point, this is the very same concept behind both the Eastern Taiji and Western all-seeing eye symbols.
So here is the commonality between Taoism and Buddhism (and Christianity):
Taoism advocates “going with the flow” in life in harmony with the “Tao.” This can be seen as floating downstream along with the river current.
Buddhism advocates releasing attachments because the universe is ever-changing. This can be seen as not hanging onto roots and branches alongside the river. And hence allowing the goal of Taoism - freely-flowing with the river.
Christianity advocates obediance in following “God’s will.” Substitute “Tao” for “God” here.
As far as Zen (Ch’an) Buddhism vs Taoism specifically:
Zen Buddhism operates under the concept that words are no substitute for reality, and that traditional logical scholarly teaching may not necessarily be the most direct route to enlightenment.
Now I believe there’s a passage in the Tao Te Ching’s line about how the Tao that’s spoken of is not the true Tao, or something along those lines. …or was that a misinterpretation?
all I know is:
Zen or (ch’an) buddhism evolved in China, and was very influenced by Taoism. In fact, Quanzhen (Complete Reality), a sect of Taoism, is very influenced by Buddhism, and even incorporates some Buddhist sutras into their scriptures. Both advocate meditation as the key component of practice in order to gain enlightenment/immortality (at least to the best of my knowledge)
Knowing others is wisdom, Knowing the self is enlightenment- Lao Tzu
Try “Tao, The Watercoourse Way” and “The Way of Zen” both by Alan Watts. There is a clear relationship between what is considered intellectual Taoism and Chan. These two books will draw the caomparison and are pretty good primers for anyone interested in learning about Chan(Zen) and gaining some insight into Taoism as well.
Sincerely,
Scott
Alan Watts
Well Said.. Alan Watts is the #1 expert or considerably so in America. He has done 90% of the translations or something near that of the old Zen texts.
He’s also quite a funny guy. I remember his opening words to his speech on Zen to be something like, “If you walk away from this speech thinking you know anything about Zen, you missed the entire point.”
Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres
Alan Watts was a pretty remarkable guy. It’s too bad about his passing. Check out the URL below to find an interview from Empty Vessel, where an old friend of his describes what he was like, and explains that his rampant alcoholism didn’t prohibit him from being a Taoist of the highest order.
http://www.abodetao.com/subs/shop.cgi/SID=995994121.17564/page=v_article6.html
It’s pretty good stuff. - (The stuff about Watts is toward the end.)
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure
I’d have to disagree with Alan Watt’s alcoholism. Too often, westerners latch onto Eastern philosophy b/c it’s less rigid and thus attempt to use it to justify their vices.
But the fact is, alcoholism is really not so “unconventional” in this country (it’s epidemic, if anything), and nor is it flowing with nature - it is destructive to your liver. And besides, Taoism is not about rebelling or following, it’s about simply following our true nature. If that HAPPENS to be what everyone else is or isn’t doing, then so be it. You shouldn’t be intentionally conforming or non-conforming.
I’m not arguing one way or another myself. I suggest you read the excerpt and draw your own conclusions. The argument I’m referring to, however, is rooted in the long-standing tradition of wandering Taoists that enjoyed a stiff drink. It is without a doubt that alcoholism is a tragedy, especially in the case of someone as gifted as Watts. However, from what I can remember of the interview, it seems Watts did some of his best lecturing when drunk. The Tao works in mysterious ways, eh?
While I agree that Westerners too often use Eastern philosophy as an excuse to live recklessly, I’ve seen an awful lot of people on the other end of the spectrum as well, who use Eastern philosophy and martial discipline as an excuse to become too rigid. I think moderation is the key, and even discipline needs to be moderated at times.
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure
Actually, there are some striking differences at in-depth levels.
All Buddism teaches that life is suffering and suffering is caused by desire. The goal of any Buddist religion is therefore to release one’s-self of desire (even the desire to not desire) so as to prevent suffering.
Daoism teaches that everything has a nature, a way. And that it is through resisting that nature that disharmony occurs. It’s the “uncarved block” principle. Daoism is about easy and natural flow. There is a general tendancy toward a lack of ambition, but it’s from the opposite viewpoint (life is good when you act in a manner which is in your nature, life is harmonious when you allow others to do the same).
Christianity is a bit scitzophrenic. Ignoring the many little scizims that all religions have, Christianity is wandering between two polar views… The first is the Jewish held belief in a vengful, jealous God who punishes people and brings down disasters. This God likewise orders his followers to act violently in his name… Second is the Christian Demigod that came to preach extreme tolerance and forgiveness. He pushed for a seperation for earthly desires and supplication with a desire to help others.
All address a common need, so all have some similarities. But within that fram, I find the three religions rather dissimilar.
Indian philosophy
To answer your second question, o, the classic resource is “A Sourcebook in Indian Philosophy”, edited by Radhakrishnan and Moore. It contains brief commentaries and select translations of various traditions’ sacred works. For sure, it covers “Buddhism, yoga (many different forms), Advaita Vedanta (and the Vedics), Brahmanism, Jainism, shamanism, and Hinduist branches” in their philosophical, literary manifestations. This has some relation to mysticism, but when you start to examine the various mystical strands within these Indian traditions, the neat distinctions found in philosophy begin to blur. I’ve found that in approaching mysticism especially, you have to cast your net wide and get a variety of viewpoints. After all, mysticism deals with the ineffable, right? This allows for some play in interpreting mystical experience. And so to get an intellectual understanding of mystical experience, it makes sense to examine as many facets of its expression as you can. Actually, this approach agrees perfectly with a doctrine of Jain philosophy called Anekantavada - the many sidedness of truth, but I’d better stop there or else beware the flood of arcane and obscure ramblings…
Peace
the last time i checked buddhism didnt teach that life was suffering… just that suffering was a good way to bring about release and enlightenment; but every moment is a good time for release and enlightenment 
and actually i see a lot more ties between zen buddhism and taoism than i do tibetan buddhism and taoism… i think zen/tao got a bit mixed up a lot of what ive heard about zen has something to do with prereflexive action - which from what ive heard of taoism sounds a lot like living the tao
tibetan buddhism seems to be a lot more compassion orientated
peace
trav
if you never get into a fight,
you can never be defeated,
if you can never be defeated,
you are invincible
That is the first tennent from everything I can find.
The First Truth: Life Is Suffering
The Second Truth: Desire and Ignorance Cause Suffering
The Third Truth: The End of Suffering
The Fourth Truth: The Middle Path
There is specualtion (that I subscribe to, but cannot easily support) that the Zen Buddist section of Buddism is the result of the mixing of Indian Buddism with Chinese Daoism. So there certainly would be (and are) similarities.
Goals or Progressiveness..
I don’t think that Enlightenment was ever proposed as the goal in having the zen or tao philosophy structure. Each moment in life should be cherished as if it is possibly the last, and buddhism recognized suffering as the most enlightening times.
What was emphasized was the fact that enlightenment cannot come without suffering, as meditation will only bring you so far, and who needs meditation if they have no suffering?
At the moment you die, you are who you are, “enlightened” or not, and if you are filled with a love for all people/beings/life then it doesn’t seem to matter anyways.
Just remember that setting a goal as to where you want to be can be a hindrance upon your progression in anything in life. Simply decide what you want to do, and do it, mark your progress upon what you can accomplish right now, rather then what you did yesterday or what you will do tomorrow.
(EOF)
Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres
Jerry is correct. They are called the “Four Noble Truths†and have been compared to a doctor’s medical examination.
The “Eight Fold Path†is as followsâ€
1.Right Understanding
2.Right Thoughts
3.Right Speech
4.Right Action
5.Right Livelihood
6.Right Effort
7.Right Mindfulness
8.Right Concentration
“Suffering is caused by Desire†is often misunderstood because of how our culture defines the term “desireâ€. At its core it means; Suffering is cause by wanting something you cannot have. If you introspect into your own mind you will find that any time you get angry, frustrated or upset it is because you are not getting something you have decided that you want, need or expect. Someone cuts me off in traffic and I get angry. Why, because I think it is rude and inconsiderate. I want and expect to be treated with respect and consideration by others, I have not been treated in such a manner, so I become angry. The formula is the same for anything that makes you unhappy, angry, frustrated etc. These emotions create the suffering we experience in life. To transcend these emotions we must understand our attachments to the world of illusion (maya). It is our attachments, our insistence on cherishing unhealthy attitudes, that keep us trapped in a cycle of unhappiness. As long as I insist that the world conform to my personal view of what is right I will experience suffering. The world is not here for my benefit. I am but one of billions of individuals and the world does not conform to my view or anyone else’s. It is our responsibility to understand the structure, the underlying rules, of life and conform ourselves to these rules. This is the same as following the Tao. The reason we follow the Tao is to alleviate the stress that is caused by not conforming to it. Taoism may not use the same terminology, but its intent is the same as Buddhism.
Buddhism’s stated goal is the attainment of Nirvana. Nirvana literally means something along the lines of “snuffing out the candleâ€. The candle being your ego. Many believe that it means the elimination of the ego so that it is non-existent. This is a misunderstanding. It means to eliminate our ego’s need to control the world system, to have things occur according to our own idea of how things ought to be. We accomplish this by realizing that it is a game we cannot win on our own terms. Life is bigger than we are and it makes the rules. By learning to conform to the rules we gain happiness, we cease to bang our heads against the wall of life. When I was much younger I took a junior lifeguard course. One of the things we learned was how to make river rescues. The first thing you learn is to not swim against the current. You relax and flow with the current, but at an angle towards the shore. You follow the path of least resistance. This is practicing “wu-wei†(not-efforting) of Taoism. This principle seems obvious when swimming in a river. But is not so obvious in life.
All serious religions have at their core this attitude of submission, conforming to the Tao. In Christianity in modern times it is commonly termed, â€Let go and let Godâ€, “Islam†itself means, “to submit†and by extension to Allah’s will.
Our egos have a tendency to want to control the world and the funny thing is our egos are transitory. Your ego can be equated to your self-concept, your self-identity, who you believe yourself to be. Who you believe yourself to be today is not who you believed yourself to be last year, 5 years ago or 10 years ago. Who you are is as transitory as everything else in life. We are able to live life under these transitory conditions, because there is a slow process of change over time between who you are now and who you were 10 years ago. It is the process of growth. If your identity instantly changed between who you were 10 years ago into who you are now it would destabilize your personality and we would call that a psychotic crisis. So the transition of our identity occurs slowly over time to give us the impression that we are the same person. Who we are at the core of our being is unchanging, but our personal identity in the world-system changes constantly. Our core being is like a leaf in a stream, it floats on the surface of the stream observing the changing countryside as it rides the current, itself remaining the same as the countryside changes around it. Our world-system personality is the stream twisting and turning constantly changing directions meandering aimlessly sometimes, sometimes rushing fast and furious. We must transcend this world-system identity if we wish to follow the Tao, reach nirvana, find bliss, know God, etc.
Sincerely,
Scott
You guys are well taught
I am happy this forum has much wise people visiting.
Scott..
Well said scott, but if this progress of removing the envelope of the ego was done slowly and changes were expected to come in terms of years, what was the purposes of etheogens (halluciogenic drugs) and the 3-awakenings purposes?
Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres