Sure Hendrik… but Leung Jan-Leung Bik-Ip mam winchun in it’s better versions has evolved beyond earlier roots.
joy[/QUOTE]
Everyone has their reason for evolution. Is it better? Depend.
Also, there is no proof of Ipman leong bik connection. But evidentially, Ipman is influence by Yks lineage. Even if leong bik exist his wing Chun will be like koo lo type. So, unless you can comes up with evidence of leong bik. Ipman wing Chun is yks influence evolution from chan wah wing Chun.
And now this type of evolution is facing the following type of issue which the older platform doesn’t.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1145565]If you look at the description Phil its says ‘Poon Sau’
But from my research this is how the whole of the mainland Yong Chun boys roll, influenced mainly by Pang Nam I think. Also what others would call ‘wristing’ :eek: and many Taichi groups have exactly the same rotation.[/QUOTE]
Some WC people use the term Poon Sao.
The modern day WCK chi sau type is an invention of yks and ip man.
All older WCK lineages using the white crane type of chi sau platform…[/QUOTE]
If that is what older WCK lineages do than Ip Man, Leung Bik, whomever, didn’t just evolve the system, but revolutionized it. There are more violations of good WC principles in that clip than I even care to point out…
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1145595]Everyone has their reason for evolution. Is it better? Depend.
Also, there is no proof of Ipman leong bik connection. But evidentially, Ipman is influence by Yks lineage. Even if leong bik exist his wing Chun will be like koo lo type. So, unless you can comes up with evidence of leong bik. Ipman wing Chun is yks influence evolution from chan wah wing Chun.
And now this type of evolution is facing the following type of issue which the older platform doesn’t.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1145813]----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow Hendrik. So you are calling Ip Man a consistent liar. Amazing!!l
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Come on Joy, you cant be surprised really.
He’s slagged of all and sundry to suit his argument, i remember having a great slanging match with him over TST who apparently (in Hendricks mind) doesnt know what he is doing.
He gets personal, he lies, he doesnt answer straight questions, he speaks down to people and (in my mind) hints at racism from time to time.
If he had anything to offer that would be fine… but IMO he offers nothing
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1145813]----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow Hendrik. So you are calling Ip Man a consistent liar. Amazing!!l
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Joy,
I am simply stating what is happening in mainland china.
Kulo Master Fung already mentioned it in a interview
Weng Chun Master Tam already mentioned it in a interview
Master Kwok fu in fatshan also mentioned it in a recorded interview
Kulo Master Leung who teaches the 22 san sik, mentions Leung Bik in many of his articles.
Ip man descendants, Ip Chun and Ip Ching and students majorly tell you their father, Sifu told them
“Big Mountain Shu” was a teacher of Chu Cheung Man and Chu told this story to New martial hero about what his teacher told him! For a short time Shu studied under Leung Jan when he was there so was Chan wah and LEUNG BIK!!! So here we have a lineage not related to Ip Man at all who mention Leung Bik
The Books in Ip Man Tong was passed down by Leung Jan- Leung Bik- Ip Man- Ip Ching, already proven by the goverment (you dont think the chinese just start a museum without verifying the information, I mean seriously they can find dinosaur fossils, buddhas from silk road etc…)
In Poon Sao, its a controlling circular movement. The circles can be forward, backward, horizontally clockwise or horizontally anti clockwise. In fact, I was asked by a student who did mainland red boat wing chun did we specially add circular circling to Ip man Wing Chun teaching- No we did not. Ip Ching teaches this poon sao, as Sifu Kwok does as well.
In Lok Sao, we have been able to structually show why the elbow positions of tan bong fok uses natural body structure and angles to neutralise force.
But in sharing, going for proper training is still the best way to understand this.
I personally prefer this method of doing chi sao over the luk sao platform, even though they are circling, if done correctly i can assure you that they would still have centerline intent, the center isn't as open as some of you might think. Im my humble opinion, this chi sao platform is a very efficient training tool which develops more skills/ attributes compared to the luk sao platform. But the luk sao platform is a better training tool to develop correct structure.
And I agree with Hendrik, it’s not from Pan Nam linage, but it’s found in all the older linages of wing chun such as Cho Ga, yuen Kay San, Kulo pien san, Vietnamese, and possibly Pao Fa Lien
Does anyone know which linage of Fujian white crane this is? it looks almost like another linage of wing chun
1, The following clip, starts 4.58/10.00 is exactly the type of old red boat Wing Chun Chi Sau which found in older Wing Chun family such as the Cho family and YKS.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1145594]1. Pan nam can do what they like on their line of wing Chun.[/QUOTE]
I was only suggesting what I have seen and heard about the modern Wushu developments of Yong Chun Quan in the mainland. My comment was not meant to be negative in any way.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1145594]2. To the contrary, because looking at the DNA. Hung kuen doesn’t have the center line theory as white crane . Taiji doesn’t either. Thus, white crane is called one of the major seed of tcma in the Chinese history.[/QUOTE]
Ok. I see. You have looked at the ‘DNA’ of Hung Kuen and Taichi. All variations and families of course? Through a microscope? lol!!
Hendrik, if you could tell me you have learnt or exchanged with a decent HK or TC Sifu I would see your point. But have you?? Because it doesn’t sound like it…
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1145594]3. Reality doesn’t need to fit anyone’s believe.[/QUOTE]
Reality?? Who’s reality?? It is you who have said YKS and Ip Man invented the interactive platform we all see today in modern Wing Chun. I disagree completely.
Everything has always been there in the system, and perhaps they brought better practises to the forefront of training, but that’s all imho. My Sigung learnt his mainland Wing Chun long before he exchanged with Ip Man in HK, and his ‘rotation’ had always been taught in the same manner as it is today.
I was also taught a similar method of interacting as the clips you post, but there are subtle differences in intent and seed rotation fme. The term poonsau gives it away actually, but I prefer Yoshis term ‘Jaosau’ for this particular clip.
I hope this helps to clear any misunderstandings you, or others may have concluded from my previous post.
Hendrik, if you could tell me you have learnt or exchanged with a decent HK or TC Sifu I would see your point. But have you?? Because it doesn’t sound like it…:[/QUOTE]
My taichi push hand sifu Pan yi rou is the champion of Taiwan push hand competition. My siheng who study wing with me and explain hk to me is a famous hk grandmaster. my martial brother Gm Robert Chu of WCK is also a hk expert.
