http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Qc2tho5N8&list=PLF871C0B72851D784
No centerline, no wing chun.
Looks a whole lot like the Chi Sao done in Pin Sun WCK!
[QUOTE=Eric_H;1252393]No centerline, no wing chun.[/QUOTE]
Center line is but only one concept/principle in wing chun, there are many others. Don’t be a slave to center line, flow is also important. and if you know what to look for there is a center line awareness in what they are doing, but not in the obvious way that most are used to.
[QUOTE=KPM;1252401]Looks a whole lot like the Chi Sao done in Pin Sun WCK![/QUOTE]
Yes i agree this chi sao platform is similar to the double circling hands chi sao cycle in many of the mainland wck linages including Pin sun wck.
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1252439]Center line is but only one concept/principle in wing chun, there are many others.[/QUOTE]
It is also but only the most central principle the rest of the system is based upon. Take that out and everything else ceases to function.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1252440]It is also but only the most central principle the rest of the system is based upon. Take that out and everything else ceases to function.[/QUOTE]
who said anything about taking it out? the problem is too many WCKpeople misunderstand what the center line principle is all about. As someone once said “don’t look at the finger pointing at the moon” the finger pointing is just the tool.
So what is it about in this vinh xuan?
[QUOTE=LFJ;1252451]So what is it about in this vinh xuan?[/QUOTE]
controlling the center line without being a restricted or bound by the centerline.
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1252452]controlling the center line without being a restricted or bound by the centerline.[/QUOTE]
When we talk about “centerline”, we have to talk about the Chinese spear technique. The spear is used to stab at your opponent’s heart (his center) more than any other weapon does.
The Chinese spear technique only has 3 major moves. the
- stab,
- clockwise circle,
- counter clockwise circle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY4azsuTzhM&feature=youtu.be
All WC systems have the stab. Does all WC system also have the clockwise circle and counter clockwise circle? Apparently some WC system have it.
If you can move both of your arms in circle with your
- left arm moving in a clockwise circle, and
- right arm moving in a counter clockwise circle,
you can seal your center line (the intersection of both circles) tightly that no incoming attack can go through.
To work off of what John is saying…there are two strategies when it comes to defending the centerline. You can occupy the centerline and defend it from the inside outward, or you can leave the centerline open and defend it from the outside inward. Southern Mantis uses the second strategy. Most Wing Chun uses the first strategy. Some Wing Chun also makes more use of the second strategy.
[QUOTE=KPM;1252401]Looks a whole lot like the Chi Sao done in Pin Sun WCK![/QUOTE]
Wah! All these labels 
Pin Sun Wing Chun as we all have seen through the years has a flavour of mainland interactive training, as does the Vietnamese clip here. Call it Chisau or whatever you like, it is a far stretch from the common Ip Man chisau we commonly see, and fwiw very few even do that justice.
2 arms against 2 arms has a set of variations which people here with basic experience should be able to share, and I would suggest if you don’t know what I am talking about then you need to revisit your Sifu and ask some hard and fast questions… Ip Man revised this type of mainland interaction to get to where we were at in the 1960s and then after the boom of the 70s everything changed.
There is value to everything if you understand the objectives.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1252453]All WC systems have the stab. Does all WC system also have the clockwise circle and counter clockwise circle? Apparently some WC system have it.[/QUOTE]
Yes, Biu and Huen
[QUOTE=KPM;1252460]To work off of what John is saying…there are two strategies when it comes to defending the center line. You can occupy the centerline and defend it from the inside outward, or you can leave the centerline open and defend it from the outside inward. Southern Mantis uses the second strategy. Most Wing Chun uses the first strategy. Some Wing Chun also makes more use of the second strategy.[/QUOTE]
most Mainland wck uses both strategies, where as yip man wck place more emphasis on the first strategy.
In my humble opinion, the first strategy is great for beginner to intermediate level students as it drills in the idea of the center line, but I find too man yip man WCK practioners get stuck at that level thinking that is the be all and end all in chi sao development. There ragid way of thinking does not allow there skill level to advance beyond the first level to the second strategy which develops flow. just my 2 cents based on my observation during my research into a few different mainland wck linages. Both strategies are equally as important.
[QUOTE=KPM;1252460]To work off of what John is saying…there are two strategies when it comes to defending the centerline. You can occupy the centerline and defend it from the inside outward, or you can leave the centerline open and defend it from the outside inward. Southern Mantis uses the second strategy. Most Wing Chun uses the first strategy. Some Wing Chun also makes more use of the second strategy.[/QUOTE]
Strategy 1 (straight line against circle): occupy the centerline and defend it from the inside outward,
Strategy 2 (circle against straight line): leave the centerline open and defend it from the outside inward.
In clinching, if you want to control the
- “upper” part of your opponent’s body, you use strategy 1. A double outward circles will put your arms “above” your opponent’s arms.
- “lower” part of your opponent’s body, you use strategy 2. A double inward circles will put your arms “under” your opponent’s arms.
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1252485]the first strategy is great for beginner to intermediate level students as it drills in the idea of the center line, but I find too man yip man WCK practioners get stuck at that level thinking that is the be all and end all in chi sao development. There ragid way of thinking does not allow there skill level to advance beyond the first level to the second strategy which develops flow. just my 2 cents based on my observation during my research into a few different mainland wck linages. Both strategies are equally as important.[/QUOTE]
If you over emphasize “straight line”, you will totally ignore the circular punches such as
- hook (haymaker),
- uppercut,
- hammer fist,
- back fist,
- side punch (XingYi Heng Chuan),
- Ha Chuan (start circular but end with straight),
- …
It’s OK to start your striking skill development from jab and cross. But there are more after that. The moment that you start to train strategy 2, you have just open a new door right in front of you.
This is just my opinion about “general TCMA training path”. It has nothing to do with any particular style.
Wah! All these labels
—But labels are important! How would we know what someone else is talking about without being able to categorize or label it?
Pin Sun Wing Chun as we all have seen through the years has a flavour of mainland interactive training,
—Yes. Because it IS “mainland”!
Call it Chisau or whatever you like, it is a far stretch from the common Ip Man chisau we commonly see, and fwiw very few even do that justice.
—I invite anyone to go back and look at that clip again. The Chi Sao they are doing is not simply “Huen Chi Sao” circling wrists. It is more like the Pin Sun Chi Sao that uses a coiling action. In Pin Sun it is often described as “two snakes seeking an opening.” If you watch closely you will see some Bong Sao’s naturally resulting in the action. If you’ve done both this kind of Chi Sao and the Yip Man Luk Sao Chi Sao it is easy to see how the Yip Man/Yuen Kay San version evolved from this older rolling platform. This also supports the idea that the Luk Sao roll was developed by either Yuen Kay San or Yip Man and shared. Vietnamese Wing Chun comes from Yuen Kay San’s brother. The brother learned from the same source as YKS, but likely didn’t learn the Luk Sao roll because it doesn’t show up in the lineage he established in Viet Nam. Yip Man WCK and Yuen Kay San WCK seem to be the only lineages with the Luk Sao rolling platform. When we see it in other lineages, its likely because they have picked it up fairly recently.
Ip Man revised this type of mainland interaction to get to where we were at in the 1960s and then after the boom of the 70s everything changed.
—The story told by Sum Nung was that Yuen Kay San was the one that came up with the Luk Sao rolling in association with Sum Nung himself and Yip Man. Hard to know one way or the other. But given that YKS was older and more senior than Yip Man…
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1252439] if you know what to look for there is a center line awareness in what they are doing, but not in the obvious way that most are used to.
[/QUOTE]
I know what I’m looking for, it’s not present. Body structure doesn’t lie.
[QUOTE=Eric_H;1252534]I know what I’m looking for, it’s not present. Body structure doesn’t lie.[/QUOTE]
Body structure is one level, there are other higher levels
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1252536]Body structure is one level, there are other higher levels[/QUOTE]
A few random complaints…
I get so tired of these kinds of snooty-sounding remarks. Translation: “I know more secret, higher level stuff, therefore what you say is poo”.
Another thing… all this stuff about mainland WC. What’s up with that? I mean after all GM Yip Man learned and taught his art on the mainland too. Sure he became famous during his exile to Hong Kong. The stuff on the mainland was isolated behind what used to be called the “Bamboo Curtain” for about forty years, but that doesn’t make it older, better, or more authentic. It just makes it different.
Finally everybody is so quick to generalize and judge. I don’t see how you can judge anything very well from just a short videoclip. Really, to know anything for certain it’s best to cross bridges.
Oh and about that hand-circling chi-sau. We do something very similar in the Yip Man branch I train with. That’s in addition to the standard Luk-Sau rolling. Perhaps my old Sifu picked it up on his early trips back to the mainland way back in the 80s. Or perhaps Yip Man showed it to him. I don’t know. But I believe it’s useful training.
BTW, Eric, when we do that kind of drill, we do maintain an awareness of classic WC structure and centerline.
Ignoring the snarky ‘I have higher level WC than you do’ BS comments, I agree with those that say you can engage from the inside or outside. It really depends on where your hands are during Bai Jong. There are times when you won’t even have time to bring up your guard before a punch is thrown and there are WC mechanics, body methods and tools that allow us to protect the centerline from out to in (as well as the obvious inside methods)
In HFY, one example that comes to mind is part of our Cheurn Kiu Sau long bridge methods. Loi Lap Sau application can be used for engaging on center and going from in to out (in a simple sense), and Noi Gwa Sau to bridge out to in and bringing an attack from outside the box to inside the box while establishing WC centerline.
[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1252539]BTW, Eric, when we do that kind of drill, we do maintain an awareness of classic WC structure and centerline.[/QUOTE]
Not trying to answer for Eric, but I see the same thing he does in this clip. And I don’t doubt you or someone else can do something similar and still have an awareness of WC structure - it’s simply not being demonstrated in the clip that was linked
And as a general comment, I don’t see centerline either in this clip - ‘higher level’ or otherwise :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1252536]Body structure is one level, there are other higher levels[/QUOTE]
Not in that clip! 
Here’s the Pin Sun version. And Jim does have good body structure. I’ve felt it. Because I have “crossed bridges” with him as Grumblegeezer suggests.