Yang Cheng fu

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

One thing that a lineage holder should do and that most don’t is FIRST, preserve the system. This means that the absolute first priority is to make sure that none of the original system is lost.

Just how many students of ANY school try to do that? Personally, I consider it a great compliment when someone says that they can TELL that I learned a long time from my teacher…(Now, of course, I might not feel that way if my teacher were not quite well known and respected…who knows…)

After preserving the system, then the lineage holder or anyone else for that matter can add to things or do things any which way they want… This allows the art to grow…

The trick here is that they should teach the original lineage first and then the new stuff… Sort of a “Do it this way, beginner or intermediate person…” Then with an advanced student, “Let me show you a slightly different approach or a different routine, application, etc…”

Then, if a student does not learn to the advanced levels, they at least have the original stuff that they do to a standard level.

For Yang Style, Fu Zhongwen was of this mind set. His goal was to preserve and pass on the Yang style that he learned from Yang Chengfu as close to how YCF did it… In earlier years, many insulted him for staying so close to his teacher’s methods and for looking too much like YCF in flavor and approach. In later years, many applauded him for this because even the family members did not get this due to their age when YCF died.

Now, you can dislike Yang Chengfu for modifying the art…but at least what he did was preserved. The pity is that his father’s, uncle’s , and grandfather’s methods are essentially lost. Many claim to have systems from each of them but none of those claims can be truly substantiated. It is even worse because many who make the claims to having those methods are sources where applying logic to the likelihood of thim truly having what they claim produces a VERY low probability of truth…not impossible but unlikely.

Question:
how many people first try to get what they are being taught before they move on to being ‘creative’?

22

wouldn’t the combo of internal and external be better than one or the other? Forgive me if I’m ignorant.

23

“The same one your Sigung became so skillful in. He didn’t train in the “watered” down art he’s passing down”

Like many others you mistake types and quantity of movement for quality.

Be careful about the watered down TC you speak of, if you can’t swim, it may drown you.

24

The arts are all abstract. If you are trying to acumulate the physical movements instead of the essence of the art(I am not just talking physical principles) your journey will end in ruin(deep huh). Chasing original movements or worring about the politics of lineage or treating KUngfu like a preservation act may help the physical movements of the art BUT it won’t help you in your total development. Comments like those shows me what Bruce Lee meant byt people bcoming slaves to the traditional arts. If your passion is preservation fine but don’t down others for following the path and rising to a higher realm of understanding. On the other hand some change arts now just to be cool but that’s off topic from this thread.

25

Royal D.,

I practice Dr. Yang’s long Yang form. Sort of going along with what ShaolinDynasty said, if you’re looking for a “historically authentic” form, then Dr. Yang probably wouldn’t be the teacher for you. Don’t quote me on this, but I believe Dr. Yang has said he’s changed about 15% of the form from what he was taught, based on his evolving understanding and preference. He also mixes in aspects of White Crane in the apps and qigong when he feels the principles are compatible with Taiji principles. The form in his latest book looks different than the one in his first book, and he’s assured us that it will probably look slightly different again in 20 years :).

26

"Chasing original movements or worring about the politics of lineage or treating KUngfu like a preservation act may help the physical movements of the art BUT it won’t help you in your total development. "

OK…but preservation of things CAN be important if you are in a position of preserving the lineage for your style or teacher. That is one of the reasons a teacher picks a student or certain students to carry on the lineage…the teacher trusts that the chosen student gets the details, knows the history, FULLY comprehends the core theory and concepts of the art…and will remember where it came from and how it came down BEFORE making the modifications that are part of normal evolution.

How many people do you know who have changed things in what they learned…not because the old way did not work but because they either couldn’t do it the right way, couldn’t remember the right way, or didn’t understand the right way…?

From my experience, 90% of them do this. The 10% who truly get it are rare finds. This is why the sayings in Chinese about years to find a teacher and a teacher spending years testing a student for worthiness came about.

“Comments like those shows me what Bruce Lee meant byt people bcoming slaves to the traditional arts.”

Learning takes on the same stages for everyone…there is learning to do what you are taught, then comes analysis…then finally comes synthesis…the act of putting together many things, finding how they work together, and then taking it to a new level.

Problem is most people want to go to synthesis before they did learning and analysis… To truly free yourself of the rules, you have to know what they are and why they are first…then you will know which ones can be broken or how to break them in advantageous ways…

"If your passion is preservation fine but don’t down others for following the path and rising to a higher realm of understanding. "

Not downing others…the point of the post was WHAT a lineage holder is expected to do…If you don’t want to take on the mantel of lineage successor…then don’t claim to be one is my point. Many make this claim but then change things…and don’t remember what it was first and why they changed it…Often they fall into the category in the last quote below…

“On the other hand some change arts now just to be cool but that’s off topic from this thread.”

Although I think that Lee has been quoted to death…to use one of his “Before I learned, a punch was just a punch, a kick just a kick. Before I understood, a punch was a series of moves - a kick was a series of moves. When I understood, a punch became just a punch, a kick just a kick” I may have messed up the EXACT quote…but then again, I am not claiming to be the preserver of his material…:slight_smile:

27

I agree with you on alot of points GLW, alot of people do change things cause of lack of understanding or because they may not physically be able to do things but I feel Yang Chengfu may have been in that other 10%.

Lineage holders present an interesting challenge as far as the actual duties for me since I am not really sure the full extent of this responseability. From what I do know though and my understanding of MA a lineage holder is NOT nessacary and causes more problems than it solves(I am going to get in trouble now!). I guess what I mean is that if a Sifu trains 5 people and oks them to teach then they should all be qualified to carry on the art right? At this point I don’t really feel there should be a “leader or boss” over them. Any body who is “qualified” as an instructor by his sifu should be trusted to make his own desions on what direction he should take his personal philosophies and teaching. So if 5 are qualified to teach by their instructor then there should be 5 lineage heads(of their own schools). Appointing a lineage head does more to hold back and is the cause of more styles deaths than just about anything I can think of. I am personally against this particular tradition.

p.s. Bruce quotes are tired but somtimes they fit so well;)

28

Hey boys…

Black jack,
Yup, I’m ALWAYS in th R&D mode. I’m the type that continually tries to discredit everything, always looking for the one thing I can’t discredit. Haven’t found it yet though, but when I do, I’ll let Ya know. Research never stops with me. I thinki I **** people off because I keep asking the same questions over and over again, from as many people as I can. I’ve actually had people tell me ’ Hey!! if you were’nt going to listen to my answer, why did you ask te question of me?". They never got it.

Shaolin Dynasty,

As far as preservation goes, I think it is important to do. For me, “I” want the original style, movements, pricipals, mechanics, techinques EVERYTHING just as the creator of the style did and practiced and taught. Why you ask? Because I recognise the creator of a style as an exceptionally gifted individual, and I want to know and understand “His” way of doing things BEFORE I start adding, subtracting, modifying or changing things. I will also TEACH that way as well. My students will learn as close to the original system as possisble. Then once they have THAT Mastered, I will teach adaptations I have learned or figured out myself AND I will encourage them to do so as well. After all, THAT is the final step towards true mastery.

I think too many people are trying too hard to reinvent the wheel in today’s Martial world. Often they don’t have the know how or the experiance and understanding to actualy beable to do it and come up with a functional adaptation on the original or even a new system. I think many are under trained, and then “Claim” to have invented or refined or “Fixed” or improved things just to cover for thier own lack of experiance and knowledge. My modifacations of Don F Dreggars Louhan form (From his book ) are a perfect example. I have no teaching or training in this system, all I did was work the form out of the book. there are things in there that DON’T make sense, so I reworked them so they do make sense. But “I” don’t have any foudation in that style, and what “I” see as flaws may very well be in there for a reason. A practitoner of the Louhan style may see what I have done and just laugh at me saying “this idiot ovbiously has no clue”.

To me I improved it, and to him I may have ruined it. Now “If” I have the same level of knowedge as he, I would understand. But only learning the “Correct” and “Authentic” style would qualify me to judge either way.

Don’t be so quick to pitch the baby with the bathwater!!

Royal Dragon

29

Wow.

People move to synthesis before getting their art?

What a bizarre concept to me. I mean, I wrestled, right? But I would NEVER think of using wrestling ground work in my BJJ. Some of the takedowns yeah, but not the ground work. It’s different enough that I wouldn’t do it.

Why would anybody move to synthesis before they’ve figured out exactly what they are DOING?!

How simply strange

30

Don’t know

I used to know this bruce lee quoting dude, he spent time in like six different arts in three years, and was always mixing and matching trying to find his “Tao”. Last I saw, he was doing JKD because it was a syntasis of all the best stuff. I have talked online with a number of others of that mindset over the years, and it always amazes me how people can just leearn a bunch of techniques from different sources, never fully understand them, yet act like experts in all systems. I especially love the guy that 'Fixes" all the traditional arts, as if they all had majior flaws and needed to be updated for modern times by “him”.

If you look at it, nothing really new has happened in the fight scene in a thousand years or so. Violent conferntations are still pretty much the same now as they were then, only the chances of facing a gun are more real, and if you do, no amount of Kung Fu is going to stop a bullet anyway. So what’s the point of reinventing the wheel? the Traditional stuff wrks today, just as it did in ancient times, fighting is fighting. Things are no more brutal now then they were then, in fact they are generally less so if no gun is involved. Back in the day everyone had a blade of some kind. anything from short daggars to fulll blown swords. Now, if your NOT getting shot you’re just facing a small knife.

Not that I feel a knife is no threat mind you, but you can only do so may things with them and I’m sure the ancient knife fighters were doing alll the same stuff with knifes then, as the knife fighters today do, only they had more time to practice where as we work 40+ hours a week and just do this stuff on the side.

The Empty hand is empty hand. Fighting is ever changeing and in constant flux. the old systems knew this and flexibility is built into thoses ancient systems. So I don’t see the need to invent new systems by going around and taking bits and peices of different arts and combining and “Fixing” them in the name of “evolution” and “modernasation”. When I see someone say they teach a system that has been updated for modern times I always chuckle, becaue fighting is fighting, and To me it just says the practitioner that does this stuff just does not understand the nature of fighting and the MA’s in general.

RD

31

Some people still dont understand. Who’s to decide if the modified version of an art is better than the original if that’s all you trained in. The essence of an art is in it’s original form. Improvements are not bad at all and i dont even consider adding a few moves as bad as deleting parts of an entire form. Would you consider Yang Cheng fu more skilled than Yang Lu Chan? He was 300+ pounds. Of course he couldn’t do the movements like they were originally made. Not with all the Fa-jing, low stances, kicks and changes in tempo. What could Yang Cheng Fu had thought of that his Grandfather didn’t. Why would you consider the original form lower in quality, and as for being a slave to traditonal martial arts. Every hybrid style created today is based on older arts. Even Bruce Lee couldn’t escape it. he couldn’t just pulled a bunch of techniques out of his a$$. Even he had to ask for “traditional” training. Like someone mentioned earlier. The way people fight hasn’t changed at all, punches are thrown the same way they were the first time a man violently attacked another. On the issue of Lineage holders. If they are qualified to teach a specific art then thats what they should teach. If they want to make improvements they should show some respect and get approved from their teachers. If that teacher is dead, then teach the improvements to advanced students. Many great arts have been destroyed because people take it upon themselve to make changes and then it looks nothing like it originally did. Then the cycle continnues and the new students say “hey if he did it, so can i” and they even take credit for a “new art”. Just because you are qualified doesn’t mean your a master. Unless you truly master something you wont fully understand it’s limitations. Thats like not following the instructions to build say a boat, then when it finally sinks you call it a peice of junk and you get angry at the manufacturer. Even though your not an expert you call them a bunch of idiots and you build what you think is an improvement in their design. But how would you know? I have nothing against the new Yang form. But come on dont you think it would be great to learn what Yang Lu Chan taught:cool:

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No, what he taught is not actually what people learned.

You keep talking about some type ORG. TC. So please what is the org TC.

33

You guys are missing MY point. I am not talking about low class unexperienced people creating systems cause they style jumped around. I am talking about somone speding some good quality trainig time and maybe making some changes here and there, I don’t see a problem with that. Like I said before it is a matter of choice after all it is up to you what you learn. I am sure Yang Cheng Fu didn’t force his teaching on anyone, so obviously sombody found use in it.

34

True

true, but I bet his students would have wanted to learn the same as he was originally taugt, and then decide for themselves what changes, “if” any were needed for themselves.

That is really the mind sett of most “Traditionalists” We just want nthe original art as it was developed and perfected by it’s founders. any changes that are made should be done by US a we see fit for ourselves. Then, we STILL teach as we learned and only pass our “improvements” as an accessory to the original.

I don’t want to learn genrations of forms added by sucessive practitoners or worse modifacations of existing forms due to the needs of current conditions, just the core system as it was taught at it’s time of perfection. For Tai Tzu, probually around the Ming dynasty.

Royal Dragon

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Royal Dragon’s got the point. No matter if it’s the Yang style or any style for that matter. Even though Yang Cheng fu told people he deleted moves it doesn’t make it right. He’s the styles owner yea, but what about the masters taught before he was even born. Those not even in the Yang family but are obviously older and more experienced than him. The example i gave before doesn’t just apply to unskilled people creating systems. Just look how much Yang Cheng fu’s form got modified even to present day. By for example, Cheng Man Ching and the many people who made offshoots after him. The form that Yang Cheng fu’s Grandfather made is probably lost forever. If it wasn’t changed in the first place then no one would of though it was ok. I’m sure no one here are just seeking forms. But people do want to learn a style the way it was meant no matter what it is. If you look at any part of this forum you’ll see pssng battles about what is legit and not. This was caused by people, master or not thinking they knew what’s best. Now according to what you say none of them are really wrong. No matter how absurd anyone thinks it is since they dont have to answer to any “boss”.

36

I myself have a lot of problems with YCF changing the art, but if the art can’t change, would it have been created in the first place? What I mean is, why aren’t people ragging on Yang Lu Chan for changing the Chen Family’s art?
Just a thought.

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He didn’t change the system he changed the intro. Since most people can’t even understand the intro, they think thats the system. The core of tai chi is the same. It involves way more stance training than most people beleive and at the higher levels has what appear to be external training methods.

Its not about peace and love its about breaking people.

Most tai chi teachers either don’t know or guard it with their life. If you want to learn tai chi…take up aikido. I’m not kidding many of the applications are identical.

38

I think your still confusing outer perspectives with achieving a type of inner realty

To speak of what was the org TC. Kind of implies that it was developed by one source.

Org could mean the first few movements that where called TC, the idea of TC or following as close as possible to one of the family styles known as Chen, Yang or Wu.

Training methods, it’s pointless to talk of secret methods or higher methods if you can’t meet some of the more basic common requirements of all or most TC styles. As Stacy said “common core”

Once you can, then it becomes a matter of preference. Any one of these styles can lead you to an understanding although it is recognized that some are much harder and have fewer people that actually achieve the standered.

Sounds like your still looking for the box or teacher and you have it before you.

people only get borken if they want to.

39

Listen, we can go on about this for days. None of us will change our minds on the subject. I’m not talking about the Original Tai Chi created by whoever. I was referring to Yang style created by Yang Lu Chan. It can also mean any style in general. I dont rag on Yang Lu Chan because he’s not the Lineage Holder for Chen Style Tai Chi. He admitted it was changed, but it wasn’t his responsibility to keep the tradition going. He just wanted to teach what he learned from the Chen family and his own experience. That’s why people made the difference. It’s up to the holder to keep what he was taught alive. I guess my rant is not with Yang Cheng fu alone(maybe it’s just with modern Tai Chi students) . But it’s possible that no one will ever practice what Yang Lu Chan created ever again. Give Yang family Tai Chi another hundred years and it may not even be a martial art anymore, but will be known as a health excercise. Yang Cheng fu himself said it shouldn’t be changed anymore but everyones taking artistic license. I realize his changes allow it to still be useful, but what good reason was there to change in the first place? I dont need to mention Yang Cheng fu’s weight again which makes me think their were other reasons for what he did. I’d rather have a thousand different styles than to change something that someone perfected their entire life. If it’s not worth anything let people decide. The only thing that may let Yang family Tai Chi survive is peoples knowledge of other styles. Anyway, these are my opinions and i guess it really has to do with responsibilty and what i think is respectful, of course you have your own…and Stacy what does Aikido have to do with this.

40

did’nt Yang Lu Shan create the Yang style because the Chen family would’nt teach him thier secrets? Or was it because he really did’nt like the Royal family so he watered it down for them?

In the end, I think it’s pretty easy to say Yang Lu Shan had a good system that needed no improvement as a whole. May argue Yang Chen fu’s “Improvements” were infact more watering down of the style. In this case, I think most of us want to learn the original, and then adjust it to suit OUR nees, NOT the needs of Yang Chen Fu.

Still, the original should be taught as the founder intended, then and only then should it be adjusted.

The way “I” see it, were lossing out on knowledge that can never be replaced when things are “removed, shortened and simplified”.

Now, if you remove, shorten and simplify, that’s all fine and dandy, but then once I’ve gone through “That” progression (stepping stones), give me the real thing, I’ll take the final steps to mastery myself by making my own modifacations or inventing new stuff based on MY needs.

RD