Recently, There was a mysteriously vanishing thread featuring an interview where, an idea of keeping wu sau off side as a neutral or default position was presented as standard to the course. Meaning, that the wu sau and possibly mun sau are typically on one side of the line…‘drawing’ or encouraging attackes to come in through available gates. Narrowing access and response. Giving one an advantage of ‘drawing’. Is this standard VT???
[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1206897]Recently, There was a mysteriously vanishing thread featuring an interview where, an idea of keeping wu sau off side as a neutral or default position was presented as standard to the course. Meaning, that the wu sau and possibly mun sau are typically on one side of the line…‘drawing’ or encouraging attackes to come in through available gates. Narrowing access and response. Giving one an advantage of ‘drawing’. Is this standard VT???[/QUOTE]
The question is not quite clear.
Lots of terms above can vary in meaning - depending on user and context-- such as
offside, neutral, drawing and standard VT.
FWIW IMO–wu saus are often used in man sau- but depending on context other motions when properly done can also be man sau- asking hands,
When you and your shadow are in squared up position wu is usually right at the center as in slt.
In attack it usually attacks the center line from different angles..when used defensively or as a back up for bong sao in lop sao it can appear superficially to be off center-but it always should protect your axis.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1206900]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The question is not quite clear.
Lots of terms above can vary in meaning - depending on user and context-- such as
offside, neutral, drawing and standard VT.
FWIW IMO–wu saus are often used in man sau- but depending on context other motions when properly done can also be man sau- asking hands,
When you and your shadow are in squared up position wu is usually right at the center as in slt.
In attack it usually attacks the center line from different angles..when used defensively or as a back up for bong sao in lop sao it can appear superficially to be off center-but it always should protect your axis.[/QUOTE]
Wu Sau: Defending hand
Mun Sau: Asking hand
Off Side: Residing arbitrarily on one side or the other
[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1206901]Wu Sau: Defending hand
Mun Sau: Asking hand
Off Side: Residing arbitrarily on one side or the other[/QUOTE]
Yes, I know what wu sao is in simple definition- but then there are details–the fingers, the bridge and the elbow.
Mun sai can also be a function-the asking.
Arbitrarily? No comprende!!
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1206904]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I know what wu sao is in simple definition- but then there are details–the fingers, the bridge and the elbow.
Mun sai can also be a function-the asking.
Arbitrarily? No comprende!![/QUOTE]
I know you know… No details like that. The idea is ’ from neutral position. reside one side so attackes come through the other one side…thus giving the ‘feeder’ the advantage. Didn’t you see the video?
[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1206906]I know you know… No details like that. The idea is ’ from neutral position. reside one side so attackes come through the other one side…thus giving the ‘feeder’ the advantage. Didn’t you see the video?[/QUOTE]
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I guess that I did nit see the video that you are referring to-I just saw your post.
Yes as a driil you can sometimes deliberately appear to be off center, provided you are prepared
for what may come..
The clips no longer worked and got re-edited into a longer single one…
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1206900]
When you and your shadow are in squared up position wu is usually right at the center as in slt.
In attack it usually attacks the center line from different angles..when used defensively or as a back up for bong sao in lop sao it can appear superficially to be off center-but it always should protect your axis.[/QUOTE]
Mmmmmmm:confused:
SLT is not a fighting form. Its an exercise and one dimensional. The whole form is abstract and made up of lots of elements to develop and improve the usage of the elbow fundamental to all VT actions. In SLT we do not pivot or step and Wu Sau is held on center so as not to confuse the student to early. We are not fighting anybody in SLT. Its for training only.
In Chum Kiu we do pivot and step so Wu Sau is not held on the centerline as it is in SLT any longer. It’s a common problem that most VT systems have.
With Wu Sau held in the correct position we can protect our center, intercept a linear attack (to clear the way for the punch) and turn the opponent away in one action. With Wu Sau on center this is not possible and people will shift to the outside to make it work. If Wu Sau is correct we can also cut the opponents line of attack and the step actually goes inside…into punching distance so we do not usually have to make two steps.
Easily shown but hard to explain in text although it is easy to say that Wu Sau from SLT is not for fighting. In CK it is but there is a slight shift in thinking between the two forms.
If you stand in YJKYM with wu-sau right on the center as in SNT, then shift and throw up a bong-sau as in CK, your wu-sau shouldn’t change position and is still on the central line between you and your opponent. Two things are identical between those two postures, your head and your wu-sau.
What’s this about the SNT wu-sau not for fighting? Drawing a wu-sau in guides the incoming attack on the outside of your arm down and off to the side, with or without a shift, same action.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1206931]If you stand in YJKYM with wu-sau right on the center as in SNT, then shift and throw up a bong-sau as in CK, your wu-sau shouldn’t change position and is still on the central line between you and your opponent. Two things are identical between those two postures, your head and your wu-sau.
What’s this about the SNT wu-sau not for fighting? Drawing a wu-sau in guides the incoming attack on the outside of your arm down and off to the side, with or without a shift, same action.[/QUOTE]
Sorry I don’t agree. If you pivot your body is facing at an angle which means if you hold Wu Sau the same as in SLT it will also be facing in that direction. Wu Sau changes position because of this and is relative to your opponent.
I used to think the same way as you but my thinking has changed and it can be clearly seen and explained by somebody that has a that idea.
Wu Sau does not draw in an incoming attack. :eek:
That is another useless idea and method created by a lot of WC systems. Wu Sau in SLT is for position and training.
You can imagine my surprise when I had it explained differently after years and years and thinking I knew it all. I also used to think it was for drawing attacks etc etc etc. I later found out the error of my ways and came back down to Earth with a bang.
If somebody had said to me 6 years ago SLT was not for fighting I would have told them to f&&k off. Much like you will do now I expect 
Better just to say we have different ideas…I like the WSLPB way 
[QUOTE=Graham H;1206934]Sorry I don’t agree. If you pivot your body is facing at an angle which means if you hold Wu Sau the same as in SLT it will also be facing in that direction. Wu Sau changes position because of this and is relative to your opponent.[/quote]
That’s moving your wu-sau with your shifting, not holding wu-sau in space and shifting your body around it.
Hold wu-sau as in SNT and shift everything but the wu-sau. Lift up your bong-sau and you’re in the exact position as found in CK or MYJ, with wu-sau on the central line. The wu-sau is in the same position relative to your opponent, whether in SNT, CK, or MYJ. It’s not ever held to the side off that line.
Wu Sau does not draw in an incoming attack. :eek:
Didn’t say it does. Wu-sau can do a number of things. One of those is drawing in as in SNT, yet with forward energy. That doesn’t draw in the incoming attack. It guides it down and off to the side as I said. It works with or without a shift, depending on what is advantageous for the situation, and of course in cooperation with the other hand.
Wu Sau in SLT is for position and training.
According to you, it’s not a position applicable to fighting. So what position and training? Why train a position you’re not going to use?
Hold wu-sau as in SNT and shift everything but the wu-sau. Lift up your bong-sau and you’re in the exact position as found in CK or MYJ, with wu-sau on the central line. The wu-sau is in the same position relative to your opponent, whether in SNT, CK, or MYJ. It’s not ever held to the side off that line.
I’m not in the same position in Chum Kiu. We are different. No problem
Didn’t say it does. Wu-sau can do a number of things. One of those is drawing in as in SNT, yet with forward energy. That doesn’t draw in the incoming attack. It guides it down and off to the side as I said. It works with or without a shift, depending on what is advantageous for the situation, and of course in cooperation with the other hand.
Wu Sau has to come back in SLT otherwise we cannot train another Fook Sau properly!
According to you, it’s not a position applicable to fighting. So what position and training? Why train a position you’re not going to use?
I didn’t say it was not applicable to fighting. I said that in SLT it is not the finished article. We are different. No problem.
Did I mention that we were different?? No problem :D:D:D
[QUOTE=Graham H;1206938]I’m not in the same position in Chum Kiu. We are different. No problem[/quote]
Your wu-sau in CK is not on the central line between yourself and your opponent? That’s the same point in space whether you are shifted or standing square in YJKYM. Philipp Bayer’s is. Why is yours not if you follow him?
I didn’t say it was not applicable to fighting. I said that in SLT it is not the finished article.
That wasn’t you that said this? “Wu Sau from SLT is not for fighting.”
[QUOTE=LFJ;1206940]Your wu-sau in CK is not on the central line between yourself and your opponent? That’s the same point in space whether you are shifted or standing square in YJKYM. Philipp Bayer’s is. Why is yours not if you follow him?
That wasn’t you that said this? “Wu Sau from SLT is not for fighting.”[/QUOTE]
Dude I’m not about to start doing you diagrams :rolleyes:
Wu Sau in Chum Kiu is on the centerline between you and your opponent but as you are pivoted an your shoulders are no longer square facing forward, the wu sau moves slightly. It has to otherwise it will be facing the wrong way. In SLT it is adjacent to your shoulders but if your shoulders are no longer facing forward an adjacent wu sau will be incorrect.
This discussion is pointless as I could show you in one second and then all will become clear. No point in continuing.
My Wu sau is in the same place for the same reasons as PB. I should know. He taught me it and it was different to any other lineage I had been involved in. Keeping it in the correct position during sparring is another story
Wu Sau should not been seen as a fighting application in SLT. In Chum Kiu yes but in SLT no!
Game over 
How do you know about PB’s Wu sau?? Are you a student?
I think you’re just not getting what “same point in space means”. No one is suggesting you keep your wu-sau at the center of your chest when you shift, which would be moving the wu-sau along with the rest of your body as a unit. Holding it in the “same point in space” while your body shifts around it ends up with it being closer to one shoulder, remaining on the central line between yourself and your opponent, and not too close or extended.
Wu-sau as done in SNT used in application of course doesn’t draw all the way back to the chest. It stops sooner, but draws in nonetheless which guides the incoming attack on the outside of the arm down and off to the side. There’s nothing wrong with such an application. There are of course many other things wu-sau does as well, but as far as I know that’s pretty standard, simple SNT understanding in WSLVT.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1206949]I think you’re just not getting what “same point in space means”. No one is suggesting you keep your wu-sau at the center of your chest when you shift, which would be moving the wu-sau along with the rest of your body as a unit. Holding it in the “same point in space” while your body shifts around it ends up with it being closer to one shoulder, remaining on the central line between yourself and your opponent, and not too close or extended.
Wu-sau as done in SNT used in application of course doesn’t draw all the way back to the chest. It stops sooner, but draws in nonetheless which guides the incoming attack on the outside of the arm down and off to the side. There’s nothing wrong with such an application. There are of course many other things wu-sau does as well, but as far as I know that’s pretty standard, simple SNT understanding in WSLVT.[/QUOTE]
Ok so we agree or disagree or a agree to disagree?
In my system the action you are referring to that draws the arm off to one side is Lan Sau (as shown in Chum Kiu) not Wu Sau. I’m not even comfortable with describing it like that because that particular action has Jut Sau inside but this is a forum and full of problems.
Wu Sau is for protection and your next hit position. No more. That is simple and enough for me otherwise we can create many things and call them many names.
Wing Tsun is a good example of that
2 old clips as one new longer clip… http://youtu.be/ODmA3MsS9kU
[QUOTE=Graham H;1206955]Ok so we agree or disagree or a agree to disagree? :D[/quote]
I don’t know. Everyone I’ve seen in WSLVT does this the same way, at least in form. The wu-sau is always on the central line between yourself and your opponent, whether squared in SNT or shifted in CK or MYJ. It is never anywhere off to the side of that line.
In my system the action you are referring to that draws the arm off to one side is Lan Sau (as shown in Chum Kiu) not Wu Sau. I’m not even comfortable with describing it like that because that particular action has Jut Sau inside but this is a forum and full of problems.
Wu Sau is for protection and your next hit position. No more. That is simple and enough for me otherwise we can create many things and call them many names.
That particular laan-sau starts from being caught with your arm up, where ideally you’d want your elbow down in wu-sau, but if you drop the elbow at that point the attacker can get in. So you maintain that slight angle and shift to the side, drawing the attack off.
The same concept works with wu-sau when your arm is extended and there is contact on the outside. You keep it level and draw it back half way and that guides the attack off to the side.
I don’t know any clips on youtube demonstrating this without some digging, but David Peterson clearly explains it in his SNT dvd you can see, and I know other WSLVT instructors teach it as well.
The wu-sau in CK follows the yi-bong or paau-bong as a backup hand, as you say. But the wu-sau in SNT also has a function directly applicable to fighting, only it draws all the way back in the form to practice a long fuk-sau, whereas in application it would stop much further out.