would your wing chun work if..

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=guy b.;1246286]..it was common knowledge in the way that styles of boxing are?

I know a lot of wing chun really doesn’t work at all, but a minority do make it effective. How much of this is the element of surprise though? Do you think your wing chun would be easy to work out and counter if it was well known?[/QUOTE]

I would think so, that’s basically what happens from sparring anyways (imo) if you have partners that you train w/ regularly. Assuming they’re competent, they’ll always figure out something to exploit over time, and when they do, you’ll become aware of it and work to fix it, and then the cycle repeats itself.

that said, i dont even think boxing is “common knowledge.” It seems like it because there’s so much talking one could do on the topic without ever actually doing it, but then again, thats why we have those embarrassing youtube vids of people saying they can deal with hooks and having their students throw nearly locked arm haymakers :o

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[QUOTE=dlcox;1246760]in some lines there is a great emphasis on clinch work. WC can be effective if it is deconstructed, sticking hand principles and bridge work relate very well to grappling.[/QUOTE]

I have always believed that

  • WC sticky hand,
  • Taiji push hand, and
  • SC grip fight,

should all be integrated together. If you have added this training into your body, you should experience it fully instead of just partially.

It’s not hard to add “arm wrap” into your sticky hand as showing at 1.22-1.24 and 2.10-2.13 in the following clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zIJCpUqeb4

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I’ve been in WC for nearly 25 years. And can say that yes, in some lines there is a great emphasis on clinch work. WC can be effective if it is deconstructed, sticking hand principles and bridge work relate very well to grappling.

I’ve been in WC for about the same time as you, and in BJJ for about 14 years. I strongly disagree.

There is no set application for any movement in WC just the principles and how these principles can be applied.

Theoretically, perhaps. But I’ve yet to see or meet a WC instructor who could match a decent grappler in grappling worth a ****, other than Andreas Hoffman (who is a BJJ black belt under Flavio Behring, IIRC), or local practitioners of my acquaintance who cross train in grappling arts.

I use grappling concepts and techniques when I grapple, not WC. They work MUCH better. I used to try and look at grappling through Wing Chun coloured glasses until I had been a blue belt for about a year, then I stopped because trying to use WC concepts was a hindrance rather than a help.

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[QUOTE=anerlich;1247050]I used to try and look at grappling through Wing Chun coloured glasses …[/QUOTE]

Many longfist guys also tried to look at SC through longfist colored glasses. Their SC tournament record were not very good either. I have seen a group of 15 longfist guys competed in a SC tournament. Every single one lose in their 1st match. After that day, that ground no longer bothered trying to dig out wrestling skill from their longfist system.

There is big difference between one tries to dig out wrestling skill from his solo form than just wrestles on the mat with proper instruction.

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[QUOTE=anerlich;1247050]I’ve been in WC for about the same time as you, and in BJJ for about 14 years. I strongly disagree.[/QUOTE]

I think most know that wing chun is a hitting art, not a clinching/grappling art. The chances of wing chun principles being useful in grappling is pretty low.

Theoretically, perhaps. But I’ve yet to see or meet a WC instructor who could match a decent grappler in grappling worth a ****, other than Andreas Hoffman (who is a BJJ black belt under Flavio Behring, IIRC), or local practitioners of my acquaintance who cross train in grappling arts.

Why would they be any good at grappling, unless they trained in it?

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Quote:
I’ve been in WC for nearly 25 years. And can say that yes, in some lines there is a great emphasis on clinch work. WC can be effective if it is deconstructed, sticking hand principles and bridge work relate very well to grappling.

I’ve been in WC for about the same time as you, and in BJJ for about 14 years. I strongly disagree.

I respect your opinion, but don’t necessarily believe it to be 100% true.

There is no set application for any movement in WC just the principles and how these principles can be applied.

Theoretically, perhaps. But I’ve yet to see or meet a WC instructor who could match a decent grappler in grappling worth a ****, other than Andreas Hoffman (who is a BJJ black belt under Flavio Behring, IIRC), or local practitioners of my acquaintance who cross train in grappling arts.

This is because it is looked at from a striking art by the general populace. WC blew up so quickly I believe that the majority of it out there is very watered down, which is true with many arts not just WC.

I use grappling concepts and techniques when I grapple, not WC. They work MUCH better. I used to try and look at grappling through Wing Chun coloured glasses until I had been a blue belt for about a year, then I stopped because trying to use WC concepts was a hindrance rather than a help.

Yes I will agree methods developed for one purpose work better than one used for another, this goes without saying. But there are some useful strategies and skill sets IMO found in WC that lend themselves nicely to grappling. I have years of experience in grappling as well and personally think that many of the movements in WC are verbatim to grappling techniques, albeit the principles are clearly different. Instead of looking at grappling through WC look at the positions found in WC, Lay on your back and assume a WC postures, then compare to positions found in grappling and instead of WC classical application think grappling. There are only so many ways a person can move their body. One of the basic fundamental strategies of WC is Position, Bridge, Control, Apply, Return this is a useful strategy for many methods of martial arts. Sticking hands strategy and the swimming techniques, arm wrapping and grip fighting of grappling go hand in hand, in it’s most simplistic form they are trying to accomplish the same thing it just can not be approached from a Rolling Hands platform. I can see where you are coming from and you do pose a valid point, but I do believe there may be room for further investigation. All the best in your training.

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[QUOTE=dlcox;1247068]I respect your opinion, but don’t necessarily believe it to be 100% true.

There is no set application for any movement in WC just the principles and how these principles can be applied.[/QUOTE]

Which principle do you apply to grappling?

This is because it is looked at from a striking art by the general populace. WC blew up so quickly I believe that the majority of it out there is very watered down, which is true with many arts not just WC.

You don’t think WC is a striking art?

Yes I will agree methods developed for one purpose work better than one used for another, this goes without saying. But there are some useful strategies and skill sets IMO found in WC that lend themselves nicely to grappling. I have years of experience in grappling as well and personally think that many of the movements in WC are verbatim to grappling techniques, albeit the principles are clearly different. Instead of looking at grappling through WC look at the positions found in WC

Didn’t you just say there were no positions and that it was “just the principles and how these principles can be applied”?

Lay on your back and assume a WC postures, then compare to positions found in grappling and instead of WC classical application think grappling. There are only so many ways a person can move their body. One of the basic fundamental strategies of WC is Position, Bridge, Control, Apply, Return this is a useful strategy for many methods of martial arts. Sticking hands strategy and the swimming techniques, arm wrapping and grip fighting of grappling go hand in hand, in it’s most simplistic form they are trying to accomplish the same thing it just can not be approached from a Rolling Hands platform. I can see where you are coming from and you do pose a valid point, but I do believe there may be room for further investigation. All the best in your training.

Think grappling? Lol. How?

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Which principle do you apply to grappling?

Chum Kiu, Ding Sau, Fuk Sau, Lop Sau etc. they are all based on the principle of suppress.

You don’t think WC is a striking art?

Your taking this out of context, obviously WC has striking, but the way I learned it also contained locking, throwing and pressure points.

Didn’t you just say there were no positions and that it was “just the principles and how these principles can be applied”?

There are no fixed positions, I should have been more clear on that.

Think grappling? Lol. How?

Figure it out for yourself, I couldn’t realistically explain it to you via a chat room conversation without it turning into a confusing, convoluted mess. It was simply a suggestion. If you don’t think it valid or feasible that’s fine. Just trying to convey a thought and help you look outside the box. If you have a suggestion on how WC theory can be applied to grappling or why you feel it is counter productive, I’m all ears.

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Instead of looking at grappling through WC look at the positions found in WC, Lay on your back and assume a WC postures, then compare to positions found in grappling and instead of WC classical application think grappling. There are only so many ways a person can move their body. One of the basic fundamental strategies of WC is Position, Bridge, Control, Apply, Return this is a useful strategy for many methods of martial arts.

As I said, I tried that for a while and found it just got in the way where Jiu Jitsu was concerned.

I have years of experience in grappling as wel

So you cross-trained? Kind of refutes your argument if you did.

If not, how have your WC-based methods fared in grappling tournaments?

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would your wing chun work if

[QUOTE=guy b.;1246286]..it was common knowledge in the way that styles of boxing are?

I know a lot of wing chun really doesn’t work at all, but a minority do make it effective. How much of this is the element of surprise though? Do you think your wing chun would be easy to work out and counter if it was well known?[/QUOTE]

guy b. What styles of boxing are you talking about ? Western boxing or muay thai ? No matter what you say about wing chun , it is what it is , western boxing , you may have all your punching arsenal of your choice , but you can ’ t backfist , or use elbows , knees and kicking techniques , so it ’ s limited right there . Muay Thai can be competitive against WCK , depending on both people though ?

Example Look at Sifu Gary Lam although he got punched at one of his seminars . He was a Muay Thai fighter , before going into WCK . But look he ended up teaching WCK anyway . WCK in a fight , depends on how good both fighters are ?
Well , you know what they say only the best man win . If you say WCK does ’ nt really work for you ? Why does ’ nt it work for you ? Maybe you ’ re not doing it right ? You ’ ve got to experiment with the WCK techniques and figure out why it does ’ nt work for you . In WCK , the techniques are suppose to prevent you from getting hit , depending on the situations you ’ re in , other than that modify it to make it work for you , the last resort stick to the WCK techniques which really works for you . If you know about martial arts , then you know what I ’ m talking about ?

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[QUOTE=lance;1247106]guy b. What styles of boxing are you talking about ? Western boxing or muay thai ? No matter what you say about wing chun , it is what it is , western boxing , you may have all your punching arsenal of your choice , but you can ’ t backfist , or use elbows , knees and kicking techniques , so it ’ s limited right there . Muay Thai can be competitive against WCK , depending on both people though ?

Example Look at Sifu Gary Lam although he got punched at one of his seminars . He was a Muay Thai fighter , before going into WCK . But look he ended up teaching WCK anyway . WCK in a fight , depends on how good both fighters are ?
Well , you know what they say only the best man win . If you say WCK does ’ nt really work for you ? Why does ’ nt it work for you ? Maybe you ’ re not doing it right ? You ’ ve got to experiment with the WCK techniques and figure out why it does ’ nt work for you . In WCK , the techniques are suppose to prevent you from getting hit , depending on the situations you ’ re in , other than that modify it to make it work for you , the last resort stick to the WCK techniques which really works for you . If you know about martial arts , then you know what I ’ m talking about ?[/QUOTE]

I think Lance has a thing for you Guy

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There’s definitely something wrong with his keyboard.

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[QUOTE=LFJ;1247110]There’s definitely something wrong with his keyboard.[/QUOTE]

Bwahahahahaahha

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[QUOTE=GlennR;1247109]I think Lance has a thing for you Guy[/QUOTE]

I sure hope it’s not just me. I need to stop provoking him

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So you cross-trained? Kind of refutes your argument if you did.

Not really, more complimentary. In the branches of WC descending from Fung Siu Ching we have what is called Bamboo Section Training. Fung Siu Ching was known more for his throwing and locking than striking. Bamboo Section Training has positions nearly identical to guard, mount, side mount, knee on stomach, spider guard etc. The just have funny names like “Lazy Tiger Suns It’s Belly” and “Kneeling Horse Presents a Hoof”. It has transitions from position to position, locks, chokes and strangles done from an upright position and on the ground. Can I say that this is original to WC theory? No I can’t, but it has been around for awhile. It’s not nearly as involved as Koshen or BJJ, hence the cross training, but it does set a good foundation. Now I can honestly say that what I learned from the Yip Man line was not all that different from the Yuan family line, so, if this isn’t something that you learned, either you teacher did not know it or you hadn’t gotten that far in your training.

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[QUOTE=dlcox;1247147] Bamboo Section Training has positions nearly identical to guard, mount, side mount, knee on stomach, spider guard etc. The just have funny names like “Lazy Tiger Suns It’s Belly” and “Kneeling Horse Presents a Hoof”. It has transitions from position to position, locks, chokes and strangles done from an upright position and on the ground. .[/QUOTE]

Then maybe you could explain which WC principles are applicable to the different ground positions and which are not applicable to others.

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Then maybe you could explain which WC principles are applicable to the different ground positions and which are not applicable to others.

I will try, though just to be clear, I am no expert. IMO I see a lot of comparability between WC and grappling, but then again that’s just me. Maybe I’m seeing something others don’t or maybe I just need glasses.

The Five Ways of Neutralization

  1. Dissolve Down
  2. Dissolve Up
  3. Dissolve by Turning
  4. Side Push
  5. Follow the Limb

These are the main concepts of sticking hands in my method of WC. These are basic principles that can be applied in numerous situations that involve grabbing and wrapping up and are relative to groundwork. A whole book could be written on this subject so I’m not going to elaborate further. Those that understand these concepts will know what I am referring to.

Here are some of the Boxing Formula:

As my opponent comes, I receive him; as he leaves, I escort him; upon loss of contact, I press forward.

Use stillness to overcome movement; use softness to overcome hardness; use rest to overcome fatigue; strength is aware, it follows and changes with feeling.

These two formulas IMO are fundamental to how grappling is approached and utilized in my system, for others I can’t comment.

Techniques like Seung Lan Sau, Da Bong, Seung Chum Kiu, Gai Jau etc. directly translate into locks and chokes.

Individuals like Andreas Hoffman, though studying BJJ, have been able to seamlessly blend their WC with grappling. This would not be possible if the two were not compatible. It is a rising trend now with many TCMA schools. I’ll be the first to admit that the grappling in WC is not very profound or comprehensive, but it is there is some branches. WC like anything else is just a tool, how you decide to use that tool is up to you.

These are the basic methods from which all systems of Kung Fu are built upon:

The Five Methods of Attack

  1. Jeet - Intercept
  2. Fan Sau - Trap
  3. Da - Strike
  4. Kum Na - Seize and Control
  5. Seut Gau - Throw

Some simply emphasize some more than others.

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[QUOTE=dlcox;1247182]The Five Ways of Neutralization

  1. Dissolve Down
  2. Dissolve Up
  3. Dissolve by Turning
  4. Side Push
  5. Follow the Limb

The Five Methods of Attack

  1. Jeet - Intercept
  2. Fan Sau - Trap
  3. Da - Strike
  4. Kum Na - Seize and Control
  5. Seut Gau - Throw

[/QUOTE]
Which principle/principles do you think that you will use to solve this problem?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nWjcGRF-7g&feature=youtu.be

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Actually, the move that Bas is using is more in line with what I’m talking about. I think that realistically it would be better employed from a grab, simply because most people never throw just one punch, and the chances of wrapping that arm are higher from a grab than a speeding punch. As for what your asking I believe you are referring to anti-grappling. So in the case of the other guy, he should of used his other hand to defend. There is an old adage ‘Box a grappler, Grapple a boxer’. Unfortunately no one has yet figured out the golden formula for that. The best suggestion I have is wrap up his arm, which would be dissolve by turning and follow the limb as applied with intercept and trap. Then bite his ear off and hang on for dear life, because Bas is going to maul you:-)

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[QUOTE=dlcox;1247257]Actually, the move that Bas is using is more in line with what I’m talking about. I think that realistically it would be better employed from a grab, simply because most people never throw just one punch, and the chances of wrapping that arm are higher from a grab than a speeding punch. [/QUOTE]

Seems the WC you are talking about doesn’t really have much emphasis on clinch work after all. Otherwise it would be readily apparent how to get the wrap from punching.