Wong Long

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
21

source material

Paul Lin,
May I ask what is your source material for the stories of Wang Lang?

To my knowledge the oldest available material is Sheng Xiao Dao Ren’s 1762 and 1794 books.
Very little is mentioned of Wang Lang in this material.

GM Wei has admitted to my teacher that the published book (Shr Yung Tang Lang Chuen)was compiled from many sources by Su Yuzhang. When reading this book it is very obvious that the info is from many sources and is somewhat conflicting.

GM Wei himself had no manuscripts and there is not recorded the name Feng Huanyi, except in his book.

Any help in locating dependable source material would be much appreciated.

22

sources

TainanMantis,

The WL story are part on the book and also told by GM Wei as my father told me. The lineage is listed on the very 1st edition in which Su didn’t edit that one. Not the later green cover book, it is a brown cover one. It was much thiner then the green one.

The 18 total skills was described in the poem/song listed in the book. GM Wei do not know how to make a poem so he must learned it form his master.

All my father and I ever known about 8 steps are form GM Wei. We didn’t research on the history outside. We just don’t care much about those history since there is never a official record made on it. All the stories on books are told by folks. We only care about the materials in the art itself–such as practicing, application, and philosophy. The ShangChin Taoist longboxing we do not know. The rest 16 other skills we can show you in actual moves where in the 8 step forms that they were at and how they were applied. The last mantis way is obvious.

any more you would like to know what I have known?

23

different covers

Paul Lin,
Every several years this book is republished with a new cover.
My book has 143 pages. 10 Chapters each of which is broken into several sections.

Does that sound like your book?

24

books

There are 3 books I have. The brown one is the very 1st one, date I think back in 1960’s. The second one is a light green one, about 1970. And last one is the hard cover deep green one.

The 1st one is most loyal to what GM Wei’s words. It has not been add any other’s words in it.

The 2nd book is added with some thing.

The 3rd book is sure to have Su and others add words.

I don’t know any republished editions exist.

When I get home, I can sent you some pictures of the 1st book.

Where do I sent you in e-mail?

25

The Three books of GM Wei

Paul Lin,
No need for e-mail just yet. First, let’s make sure we are talking about the same books.

For the first one I listed some details to help us decide if it is the same book.

The names of the three books

-Shryung Tanglang Quan
This is the one that I listed some details to above. As far as I know it is the only one published.

-Shryung Tanglang Quan Miji

-Shryung Tanglang Quan Xuji

26

The book

Tainan mantis:

I think the book you described as ShrYungTangLangChuan sond like the first book. The one I have is published in Sep. 1968, with 143 pages and 10 chapters.

The other one is ShrYungTangLaungChuanXuJi, published in May 1972, with 20 chapters and 127 pages. This one has Su edited it already.

The last one is the hard cover one, still titled ShrYungTangLangChuanXuJi. It has 27 chapters and 179 pages. Published in Feb. 10, 1977. That one is also edited by Su and my father’s picture is in it.

Other sources of what I have known came form my father’s talk about how GM Wei have told him.

If you sent me the index of the book, then I can asure if that is exactly that book, for now, it sound like that one.

Su didn’t edit the lineage tree, he mostly edited on adding extra forms, weapons. GM Wei found it out, but Su and the Wang(the publisher) said that it will make the book more pages and materials, that will help the book sale. So GM Wei let it go on like that. The lineage tree was re-layout by the publisher(for better looks) in the 1972 and 1977 books and lost its original postion, that made some confusion to the readers.

27

On behalf of Tainan Mantis

Due to the technical difficulty the forum was experiencing, Tainan Mantis was unable to post the following reponse. He asked me to cut and paste from the file which he sended me.

<<I am a little dissappointed to hear that the last 2 books have a lot of material added by Su Yuzhang. I had hoped that they were the most reliable on 8 Step.
As for the first one I think the book has good info, but it doesn’t list the sources which I have spent several years tracking down.

Most of this comes from Huang Hanhsun and Li Kunshan. Because of the way it is mixed up in the book makes the parts that come from GM Wei unreliable sources. Because I don’t know if it is really from him, another student or another unknown book.

I will list some examples below.

GM Wei’s Chapter 3 “Punching Method”

29 types of punches come from Huang Hanhsun’s(WHF for his Cantonese name Wong Hun Fun) book Random Writings on PM(RWPM).

In WHF’s book the punches are listed along with references to which forms they come from.

GM Wei’s “Palm Method”

Also from RWPM. This is quite a letdown. In GM Wei’s book lists a sonnet of palm techniques found in 8 Step, but then the explanation of the 15 palm techniques is from 7*.

GM Wei’s chapter 5 kicking method, a different preface, but the kicks are almost an exact quote from RWPM.

GM Wei’s chapter 9 “PM deals with the enemy” is mostly from WHF’s book “Explanation on the Mystery of PM” And his quotes are from his own copy of Sheng Hsiao Dao Ren’s 4 books.

Section 10 of this chapter talks about Secret Door PM. This is a name coined by Su Yuzhang himself and seems to imply he had a lot to do with what went into this book.

Also His Secret Door teacher, my Shr -ye Zhang Dekuei, had no manuscripts. The only book published on this style (by my teacher) has the manuscripts from Li Kunshan’s Meihwa PM.

[Of interesting note is recent research carried out by Ilya Profatilov connecting GM Zhang directly to the tradition of Taiji PM.]

This particular section is one of the most misleading. It uses definitions of the term “diao” to hook. This character I have not seen in any manuscripts of Meihua or the Secret Door published by my teacher. It belongs to 7* and yet here it has been mixed in with Secret Door. Actually this section of the book has mixed Li Kunshan and WHF material into the same chapter.

At the end of the chapter is 18 Lohan Gung from WHF book. It has the ancient manuscript from Sheng Hsiao Dao Ren. WHF only published less than half and that same half is printed here.

According to my research the original teacher of this form in Taiwan is my Shr-bo Wu Mutsun. His teacher learned in a temple in Guang Dong of the Dz Ran Men style.

These are a partial listing of where information in GM Wei’s book came from.

WHF started publishing books in 1946 and averaged 1 book a year until his death.

Tainan Mantis>>

28

Book

Hi, Thanks mantis108.

Tainanmantis,

It will not be a surprise to me that if you find 7* or BeMen mantis stuff in there. According to GM Wei told my father, and the way I remembered my father told me, 7* came form BeMen, and 8 steps came form 7*. GM Wei, my father, and I didn’t like to read or write in Martial art that much. We like to do and experience. GM Wei didn’t have very much to put on the book any ways. Su has add more onto the book. I will go ask my father and see what he can remember that was form GM Wei’s teaching and what is not. But before that, I will go home and look at the books and tell you about what I can make out in that aspect first.

Also, I would like to know the publish dates on any other books that if you have found the same materials listed on, if you have them.

29

the book

Tainanmantis,

I think I have some questions on that book too. As I remembered back as my 8 years old, GM Wei correct me on the 8 postures as I perform them to him. The picture of the first one is not as what we stand in training, the horse stance was practiced as listed at the end of 8 stance–with TsaiShou and KeShou. The 6th one–HuTolShe, the 60-40 weight distribution is not 60 in front, it is 60 in the rear leg instead.

In the chapter 3, ChuiFa, are not practiced like foundation drills. The foundation drills we practiced are 8 stances, 8 kicks, 8 steps, and 8 strikings. But I went through the 29 hammers and palms myself, I can recognize them in the forms–the 4 small boxing and the 6 ZhaiYao. They are all in there alright.

The first section on the chapter 5 is not foundation either, only the #8, #10, and #11 was not practiced nor in the forms at all. The second section on the same chapter is the 8 kicks foundation that we practiced regularly.

In the chapter 8, there are 14 missing moves, 3 missing words, and 2 wrong words.

In Chapter 9, the section 1 and 2 I am formiliar with. The section 3, I am not formiliar. the sections 4 to 10 I can recognize. section 11 to 15 not formiliar. Sectin 16 to 23 I can reconize.

At the chapter 10, section 9, the 18 kungfa, I can only reconize 5 of them. We didn’t include that 18 kungfa in the regular practice as the way it was listed, 2 of them was practiced in hte beginning of 8 stances, after horse, before bow. Well, that is so much I can tell you now, for more, I have to ask my father.

I think this book is not mixed with other people’s words, it is all from GM Wei. I do not know if GM Wei has that WHF book nor my father ever heard of it, I don’t know if that book was availible in Taiwan at the time or not.

30

Publish dates

Paul Lin,
WHF’s book Random Writings on PM is a compilation of his magazine articles. We will have to ask his student when it was published. He retired in 1970 and passed away in 1974. His artcles probably date from the late 50’s or early 60’s.

Explanation on the Mystery of PM was most likely published n 1947 and was his 2nd work. This info comes from Sheng Xiao Dao Ren’s book from the 1700"s which was in his possesion.

According to my teacher, Li Kunshan’s son Li Dengwu provided Su Yuzhang the secret meihua manuscripts. Li Dengwu’s manuscript matches what is in GM Wei’s book. This manuscript matches very closely if not identical to older versions in China. GM Wei has also told him this book was done by Su Yuzhang. I will ask him again.

The name 7* is over 100 years old while Mimen was made by Su Yuzhang probably in the 60’s. Zhang Dekuei said his PM is Gu Tang Lang or ancient PM.
He never said Mimen or bimen, nor does it exist in China.

Of interesting note is a Secret Door PM book that attributes the Beng Bu form to GM Zhang. My teacher took this book to GM Zhang. He was a little upset and said he doesn’t even know this form.
This book was published by a famous Japanese student of Su Yuzhang.

So it is apparent that some incorrect info has circulated about this style.

31

the book

Tainanmantis,

This book my father don’t think Su has edit it, or he didn’t know. Only Su knows now. Are you sure is this book? I am sure the other 2 books are edited by Su.

Mi men( the secrete door) is another way to call BeMen(closing door–the upper, middle, lower doors)(maybe only Su calls it Mi Men, he like to make things secreatized). Be Men was then called ShuaiShou. Just before the ChinDynasty end, it was called 7*. 8 steps based on 7*. This is also listed on the 1977 book page 3. That part I have heard of it form my father also, so I don’t think that is form Su.

The bung bu, ba jou, lang jie were obsolate by the 4 small boxing when 8 step was made, so they are not in 8 step system. The 8 step systems is very condenced. The 4 small boxing is for traning the foundation requirements, then after perfection, move to the ZhaiYao. The advanced student only practicing mostly the ZhaiYao, not the small boxing. The 6 chapter of ZhaiYao should be attempted to finish all at once(endurance train too) with all requirements met.

I have not read the WHF’s words, I can’t make any common on that part.

Do you know when did Su learn the Meihua manuscripts form Li?

32

Paul Lin,
When GM Wei told my teacher Su did the book it is possible he was talking about the 2nd or 3rd.

Ilya Profatilov has in his collection of rare manuscripts that he has posted a book called “Pictorial Manual on Plum Blossom Swinging Arms(shuai shou) Praying Mantis”
This book dates to the 1800’s. It is the only reference I know of to Shuai shou that is not post 1960’s.

Since most famous masters have written a book and passed it onto their disciple we would think that somewhere exists the term Bimen Tang Lang. I have not seen it anywhere. It can not be related to Zhang Dekuei according to his own admission. So who taught it and where is it mentioned?

In the book on Lan Jie that my teacher made with Zhang Dekuei he has written that the term mimen is sometimes called bimen. This is more proof that the term bimen is a modern one.

33

Thank you

I, personally, would like to thank you all for answering my post. This has been a fun and interesting thread.:slight_smile:

34

Shifu Wei Xiao Tang book

Just one comment,

>The last one is the hard cover one, still titled >ShrYungTangLangChuanXuJi. It has 27 chapters and 179 pages. >Published in Feb. 10, 1977. That one is also edited by Su and >my father’s picture is in it.

If the latest version of the book was edited by shifu Su Yu Zhang that had to have happened before 1976. In 1976 he moved to Venezuela, therefore it was not possible for him to publish a book in Taiwan from South America.

Thank you all for this interesting discussion.

Best regards

Fernando

35

the book, 1977

Argentino,

Su did travel out of country alot at that period. The book was writen before 1977, in fact, a lot of parts came form the 1972 book. So it is only published in 1977, but not wrote in 1977. Su edit it for sure.

Tainanmantis,

So form your info, I think that both 7* and Meihua were form ShuaiShou mantis. GM Wei didn’t have any book nor his own writings/notes with him when he flee to Taiwan. Most things he have to memberized it. Just like I can sit there and call out the names of the movements form the 4 small boxing forms and the 6 chapters of ZhaiYao(my father made me remember them) without performing them.

GM Wei thinks BeMen is more correct name, MiMen is nick name or print mistake of Be Men. He told us that Be men is one of the oldest style. MiMen, on the other hand is very new name.

36

Mimen or Bimen?

Hi guys,

In correct Mandarin Chinese, the character for SECRET Door Praying Mantis can be pronounced in two ways: MI, meaning secret/secretive, and BI which means constipation. It seems to me that Secret Style Praying Mantis should be pronounced Mimen Tanglangquan instead of Bimen Tanglang.

Here is a list of some Chinese books on Praying Mantis:

Tanglang Quanshu - Zhao Zhimin
Tanglang Bengbuquan - Su Kunming
Liuhe Tanglangquan - Zhang Xiangsan
Qixing Tanglangquan - Zhang Xiangsan
Shiyong Tanglangquan - Wei Xiaotang
Xu Shiyong Tanglangquan - Wei Xiaotang
Heihu Chudong Quan - Huang Wenhao

Hope this will help a bit, BYE!

37

Re: Mimen or Bimen?

Originally posted by Laviathan
[B]Hi guys,

In correct Mandarin Chinese, the character for SECRET Door Praying Mantis can be pronounced in two ways: MI, meaning secret/secretive, and BI which means constipation. It seems to me that Secret Style Praying Mantis should be pronounced Mimen Tanglangquan instead of Bimen Tanglang.
[/B]

I try to look up the word “constipation” up in dicsionary, all I can come up with is a sickness that give people a difficult time on top of the toilet:confused: (are you trying to say it means consealed or closed-up? Be means closed, and used as same as the foundational kick “Be Men Chiao” as close the doors of your body position, rather then close the door of the teaching system.) GM Wei’s book, the one published in 1977 with hard cover, chapter 1 section 2 says about that Mi Men is a misprint, Be Men should be a correct term. My father told me that MI Men was a newer nick name called by some practicers/students, it is not the proper/traditiional name for Be Men. That is what and how I know aobut this.

38

Different characters, same pronounciation?

Hi Paul Lin,

Like I said before, the character for secret “Mi” can also be pronounced “Bi” as in Bianbi (Constipation). However, there is another character which also pronounced “Bi” meaning close/closed. So, according to your information about the misprint, than the style’s original name was Bimen Tanglang (CLOSED Door Praying Mantis) but due to the misprint people got confused and started to call it Mimen Tanglang (Secret Door Praying Mantis). But strangely enough, Master Su Yu-Zhang’s school uses the character for Secret (Mi) but they pronounce Bimen Tanglang (Constipation Door Praying Mantis:confused: )…

Oh, by the way, do any of you guys know some good traditional kungfu schools (Praying Mantis or other styles) in Taipei, Taiwan?

39

mi/be

Well, the mi or be, pronounced like you said, but I don’t know what is the meaning of using the Be as in constipation. The book I told you is wrote in Chinese, it says very clear about what I have said. I am sure that part is not one of Su’s edited part.

PS.

usually traditional teach not fit for bussiness, so you mostlikely to looking for old way in parks and private teaching place.

40

Mi-secret

  1. The character for secret in Mandarin can be pronounced mi or bi. Both have the same meaning.

  2. Su Yuzhang is Taiwanese from Tainan country side. In Taiwanese secret is bi.

  3. the mi or bi in “bian mi”-constipation is the same character as the “mi” in secret like you said.

  4. Neither mi nor bi can mean constipation without being preceeded by “bian”

5.One of the meanings of bien is excrement.

  1. Unlike mi/bi when you change the pronunciation of bien you can also change its meaning.

Hi Laviathan,
I have two questions I hope you can answer.

  1. On your 18 Lohan Gung where did your Shr fu learn it?
  2. What forms from GM Zhang Dekuei does your Shr fu teach?