Wong Long

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
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Recently, I have started to reinvestigate the traditional histories of past masters of 7* PM–in particular Wong Long. Through out my training I have keep this interest in the back of my mind, focusing instead on the PM itself, only remembering superficially my lineage’s stories. This has change, in large part, due to posts on this forum and others. So (and here the point) I would like to compare stories of PM founder Wong Long.

I would like to open this disscussion to all PM lineages. I find it very interesting to explore the subtle differences between families whose style sprung from one originator. Also, I would like to avoid the question of authenticity between these histories, since histories in martial arts are hard to confirm and because of the sincerity in which they were undoubtedly related to all of us.

Oh, and if you have a web site that tells a fairly accurate account of your story, just post that. Save your fingers for mantis hooks.

The common feature that I have seen in my search is, of course, Wong Long looking to a mantis for martial guidance after lossing challenge matches to successively more adept monks. Other than that the date, ranging from the Song to the Qing; his socio-economic status; his level of indoctrination into the Shoalin temple; if the developed PM in the temple or after it was burned; and whether he existed at all are different.

Anyway, thank you for your input. I have to go now and see if I am still able to mantis hook.:frowning:

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A different prespective

The following are a few points through my own research on the origin of Tanglangquan. They are my views only.

  1. There is a temple in Lao Shan ( a famous mountain in the region) that is said to be “Wang Lang” Hau Yin temple which has the “biography” of Wang Lang (1609 - 1702).

2)There are 2 types/versions of Wang Lang’s life story: Romantic and Ordinary. Romantized version has Wang being a patriot of Ming dynasty ( Hau Yin temple tales) and was rescued by Shaolin monk; therefore, received teaching of the Shaolin temple. The only problem with this “theory” is that if he did why didn’t he repaid the favor of the monk(s) who saved his life with his new knowledge of a Kung Fu system. There is no PM system originated and practiced in Henan provinces where Shaolin temple is situated. Shandong provinces, however, has record of Tanglangquan since Ming dynasty. The Ordinary version of Wang’s story is that he was exposed to many styles of Kung Fu since his father was rich and was able to hire martial artists to tutor Wang since Wang didn’t like reading and writting that much. He could have went on a quest under his father or his teach’s suggestion. I suspect he went to a temple (Ling Yen temple) under the recommendation of his teacher Wong Gar Chung, who was a Taizu Men stylist (a common Changquan style in Shandong back then). The abbot and him had a friendly match. The result was that the strong armed style (Bai Yuan Tong Bei?) of the abbot was too strong for Wang to over come. Then came the mantis story and then Tanglangquan was born WITH the help of the abbot. That means that Tanglangquan is more than Wang Lang’s effort but Wang got all the credit as the creator. One thing of note is that this ordinary version is quite credible because the setting (Ming dynasty, Shandong province, Temple etc…), the characters ( Father, teacher, Abbot, etc..) and the plot (matches, losts, creation, etc…), but most of all it gave clues to the connection between Taizu Changquan, Tong Bei (if these style techniques were indeed within the Tanglangquan) and Tanglangquan.

  1. There seems to be a mixed up on the tale of Wang Lang and the tale of Hsing Xiao Dao Ren (Li Bing Xiao?). Hsing Xiao had been reportedly visited the Hau Yin Temple many times. His purpose there was not clear. Hsing Xiao had a collection of Quanpu (Kung Fu manual) which was titled as “Shaolin Authentics”. May be he was researching MA there? It is believe that this collection might have very little to do with PM. That is to say only “certain” material (theories and/or concepts) from this collection was adopted as PM theories and/or concepts. He was said to be the one who was “ignored” by the monks who were “practicing” Tanglangquan. He made a scene by challenging the younger monks and finally was granted an “audience” with the abbot.

  2. Wang Lang was said to have married and have children. His wife was said to have inspired or help created the form Lan Jie or other form(s). Her middle name was Lan (orchard) or something to that effect. The older title of the Lan Jie form was written as Lan (orchard) Jeet (section/holiday). This is unverified however.

Mantis108

3

mantis108

Thank you for your feed back.

You have brought to light yet more variation in the Wong Long story that I was unaware. I had always imagine WL as unwed. According to my lineage, he was an unshaven monk, which I assumed meant he never married. My understanding, or perhaps my misunderstanding, of his position within the Shoalin Temple simply made that leap. Very interesting!

If I may inquire, what are your sources? Are they mostly oral in tradition (i.e. related to you by your sifu/other masters.) Or do you have some scholastic sources that I may be able to access with permission?

Also, Is the information given about WL’s father and his teacher found within your branch of PM? The reason that I ask is through browsing the internet and communicating with other 7* players I have never happened across this info. Although, one reason for this may be my historical knowledge of PM is still a bit shallow.

Anyway, thanks again. Your post was very informative.

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Wang Lang History

Hi, here’s the version I have taken from ‘The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu’ by Wong Kiew Kit:

–

Praying Mantis Kung Fu is derived from Shaolin Kung Fu. Wang Lang, a shaolin disciple, practised Lohan Kung Fu in the Shaolin Monastery during the Ming Dynasty, however, could never beat his class mates partly due to a small physique.

One day, after being beaten by his seniors in sparring, Wang Lang was resting under a tree and heard a loud noise. On further investigation he saw a praying mantis fighting with a much larger circada, the mantis defeat the circada even though much smaller using its long limbs. Inspired, Wang Lang captured a few praying mantises and and studied their fighting movements which he incorporated into his Shaolin Kung Fu. Although he could still not match the best monks, his improvement was tremendous.

His master suggested that he took leave from the Monastery and travelled the country to study diffent martial arts. During his travels, Wang Lang selected the best points from 17 other Kung Fu styles such as Monkey style footwork and the palm strike and incorporated these into his Lohan Kung Fu with Praying Mantis Techniques and thus formed Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

On his return to the Shaolin Monastery Wang Lang taught his Praying Mantis Kung Fu to the monks, which becme very popular - even replacing Shaolin Lohn Kung Fu as the main style taught in the Monastery.

Sheng Xiao, a taoist master, visited the monastery and was surprised to find the monks practicing this ‘odd’ style of Kung Fu, and was even more surprised when he could not match it with his Wudang Kung Fu. On finding out more about Praying Mantis he asked the monks, “Aren’t you ashamed that the famous Shaolin Monks are studying Praying Mantis Kung Fu? Shaolin Lohan Kung Fu has been the hallmark of Shaolin throughout the ages.” It was thus decided by the Shaolin Abbot that they would teach Sheng Xiao Praying Mantis and in return he would preserve and spread the art.

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Hi Mantis9

"Thank you for your feed back. "

You are most welcome, my friend. :slight_smile:

“You have brought to light yet more variation in the Wong Long story that I was unaware. I had always imagine WL as unwed. According to my lineage, he was an unshaven monk, which I assumed meant he never married. My understanding, or perhaps my misunderstanding, of his position within the Shoalin Temple simply made that leap. Very interesting!”

In Taosit even Buddhist traditions (in China), there are those who are devoted to the religious believe or spiritual life without actually joining the Sangha or whatever insititution. In Taoist case, which Wang Lang was in quite a few version, Doren or Xiaosi as a title would be a big hint that he was but wasn’t a monk per se. It is kind of a paradox that Chinese thought patterns are like. One can still live in the secular world doing the “normal” daily things yet you declair that you are devote to the spirituality until you are ready to live in the monastery. Of interesting note is that 7 stars lineages often protraited him as Buddhist monk of Shaolin Temple. Personally, I am more inclined to believe that he was actually a Taoist (Hau Yin is a Taoist Temple) or his spirituality was more inclined as Taoist. This we can see from Meihua lineage Quanpu (Boxing Manual) that there is an abscence of Buddhist terminology and concepts. But there are lots of Taoist concepts (Ying Yang being the most obvious) including Qigong. There might be some reasons that the 7 Stars lineages pushed for the Shaolin identity. One of which is that Wang Yongshan , who was the Grandmaster of GM Luo Guangyu, was well versed in some Shaolin long fist systems as well. It is believe that he created what are considered to be the “pure” forms of 7 Stars. We have to remember that Taoism in Ching dynasty was regarded kind of lowly by the grass root folks because of supposed “employment” by the Ching Emperor as well.

“If I may inquire, what are your sources? Are they mostly oral in tradition (i.e. related to you by your sifu/other masters.) Or do you have some scholastic sources that I may be able to access with permission?”

Believe it or not most of the materials (written) are provided by forum members here and their school sites plus oral traditions of my style (CCK TCPM). Late Sifu Eric Ishii (7stars), his Kung Fu brothers, his friend Bambooleaf (a member here) and Mantiscave, Sifu Carl Albright (7 Stars). Sifu Ilya Profatilov (TJPM & 6 Harmonies), my good friend Tainan Mantis, My Kung Fu brothers Shaolin Mantis and Taijimantis plus many others have been very helpful in providing great material and info. I am sure you will found the quality of the info on this forum is quite high as well. If there are certain material you are looking for and I have them, I don’t mind sharing with you or anyone. But most of the stuff that I have are TJPM material which may not be what you are looking for. Anyway, I am all for sharing. :slight_smile:

"Also, Is the information given about WL’s father and his teacher found within your branch of PM? The reason that I ask is through browsing the internet and communicating with other 7* players I have never happened across this info. Although, one reason for this may be my historical knowledge of PM is still a bit shallow. "

Yes, it was published in the New Martial Hero Magazine back in the 70s. It is now out of print. My Sigung, GM Chiu Chuk Kai did a series of TJPM Kung Fu for them back then. You can find the translation by me on my site.

Mantis108 Website

To be honest, the history of Praying Mantis (any other martial art for that matter) is like Kurosawa’s film Roshamen. Depending on the involvement of the story tellers, the same tale would have myraid versions. One thing I know for sure is that there are 2 main approaches to this quest for the truth: Creation or Evolution.

“Anyway, thanks again. Your post was very informative.”

You are welcome and I am glad that you enjoy my post. Good luck on your journey. :slight_smile:

Mantis108

6

NPMantis

I have read Wong Kiew Kit-- I believe while I was loitering at Borders. I didn’t read it terribly well, just skimmed. So, I didn’t catch the Wong’s mention of WL’s small physique. That’s interesting because the story compares WL with the diminutive PM. Hmm?

Any tale of a master’s size that I’ve heard (specifically Lo Gwan Yu and Fan Yuk Tong) tells that they were large men. I have heard it said that LGY was well over 200lbs due to his internal practices.

Thank you.

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Hmm…

That’s quite interesting, I guess the real truth is no one actually knows conclusively as stories change ever so slightly every time it is told - if you get a chance I think the story is on p.35 if you see the book again.

Take care bud,

NPMantis

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mantis108

I followed your link. Very informative. I am glad to find so many of PM players out there wish to preserve their histories by commiting it to paper (or in this case–the web).

It makes us newbies very happy!:smiley:

I going to read over it again and then, just like Winnie the Pooh, think, think, think about it. (Corny Alert! Beep, beep!) But I digress.

I like to see the common threads between 7* history and Taiji’s. Is there anyone else out there got something different? Or something you would like to interject into the conversation?

Thank you, once again.

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Re: Hi Mantis9

Originally posted by mantis108
[B]
In Taosit even Buddhist traditions (in China), there are those who are devoted to the religious believe or spiritual life without actually joining the Sangha or whatever insititution. In Taoist case, which Wang Lang was in quite a few version, Doren or Xiaosi as a title would be a big hint that he was but wasn’t a monk per se. It is kind of a paradox that Chinese thought patterns are like. One can still live in the secular world doing the “normal” daily things yet you declair that you are devote to the spirituality until you are ready to live in the monastery. Of interesting note is that 7 stars lineages often protraited him as Buddhist monk of Shaolin Temple. Personally, I am more inclined to believe that he was actually a Taoist (Hau Yin is a Taoist Temple) or his spirituality was more inclined as Taoist. This we can see from Meihua lineage Quanpu (Boxing Manual) that there is an abscence of Buddhist terminology and concepts. But there are lots of Taoist concepts (Ying Yang being the most obvious) including Qigong. There might be some reasons that the 7 Stars lineages pushed for the Shaolin identity. One of which is that Wang Yongshan , who was the Grandmaster of GM Luo Guangyu, was well versed in some Shaolin long fist systems as well. It is believe that he created what are considered to be the “pure” forms of 7 Stars. We have to remember that Taoism in Ching dynasty was regarded kind of lowly by the grass root folks because of supposed “employment” by the Ching Emperor as well.

Mantis108 [/B]

I agree. I know that Wang’s master is called Yu Hwa Tao Ren or Yu Hwa Zhen Ren. That is a moke’s calling. Wang himself is also called Yeh Shan Yo Ren. That name is a Taoist name but not a moke’s calling. So I guess Wang is only a Taoist but not a monk.

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Hi Mantis9,

Glad you like My site. :slight_smile: Thank you. Technology has made keeping records and sharing them much easier. That essentially empowered us as martial artists to do research. Glad that you are going deeper into the your study.

Although there are many styles of PM out there, we are all in fact within one big Mantis family.

Hi Paul,

Very interesting info. Thanks for sharing. :slight_smile:

Regards

Mantis108

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add-ons

Add on some explains:

Wang Long’s sifu is Yu (feather) Hwa (melt) Zhen(true) Ren (man) or TaoRen. He was in Shan (3) Chin (clear) Taoist tempole in Lo mountain. He practices TaiZhu longboxing form. Not to be mistake for the common known Tai Zhu as Tson dynasty’s founder. It is form the Founder of Taoist–ShanChin ZhenRen. It is Taoist longboxing form that Wang originally learned before he went off the Lo montain and visited the near providences. He later incroperated 16 other skills into his longboxing form before he met the ShiaoLin monks. After ShiaoLin monks, he added mantis skills in. So the final total comes to 18 different skills in the mantis style.

I think I have got the word order typed wrong, Wang’s taoist name was Yeh (leaf) Yo (have) Shan (mountain) Ren. Not a monk’s tittle.

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Sifu Tunks’ website…

exclaims that Wong Long is not actually a name, but a title. Something like “Young Lord.” (I have to check his site again to make sure my facts are right.:confused:)

PaulLin and Mantis108

TaoRen means “true man.” Is this the proper title (or is it a name) for a taoist monk? Is that the only telltale sign of his religious affiliation or is there also other indicators that point to it? How would you know if they are a monk or just have the religious devotion like you have said? Is that the title Xiaosi? Or does that mean the same thing as TaoRen?

I don’t speak any of China’s languages, so it is not that obvious to me.

I apologize for all the questions in advanced. I know both of you as well as many other in the forum are good sports when it comes to answering questions.

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monk title

Mantis9,

TaoRen means “The man of the way(Tao)” ZhenRen means “the True man”. They are all represent the people who dedicated their life in order of total harmonization of the Tao. They are like moke–no marry, etc.

ShanRen means “the mountain man.” It is not a monk. Just says a man who don’t live in city life and being with the nature.

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Taoist Titles

Hi Paul,

Great add on info. Thanks

Hi Mantis 9,

A name in Chinese is very important. Traditionally, you would have a family name (Sing), given name at birth (Ming), given name when come of age (Gi), Chosen name in public (Ho). You might also have family nick name, chosen name for your trade such as the spiritual discipline (kind of like Christian name) or pen name (if you are a scholar). So that’s why a person could have 4 or 5 names. By addressing the person with a certain name shows your relationship and status with him/her. Family name is your root so no one can change that except if you give it up (by choice or by circumstances) to adopt a different family name. Given name at birth is rearly use even in the household. It usually is form a long sonet or poem that tells the story of your family. The purpose of the birth name is basically to tell which generation you are from in the genology tree. You will mostly be called by your nake name that your family members gave you until you receive the given name for public use later. When you come of age (15 - 20), there would be a ceremony and you will adopt a name to use in public. You will go by that name till the end of time. If you become a scholar you are allowed to choose a pen name, which your friends and colleagues will call you by . If you become a Taoist or Buddhist you will be given a practice name also. In some cases, if you have a trade (i.e. martial arts.) your Sifu could give you a name as well. This is the trade name. In practice, you will mostly know to the world by your trade name (much like our names on the forum) :smiley: . Only those who are very close to you would know all your names. To address someone with their birth name or family nake name in public would be considered a degrading insult that is like saying you are but a child. That is the naming convention.

In Taoist case, ZhenRen (really/ture person) or SheungRen (upper/higher person) is a status of achievement. You seldom call yourself that. It is out of respect that people address you by those names. Like Cheng San Feng, the legendary Taijiquan founder, would be call Cheng ZhenRen by people. He would refer to himself as DaoRen (a person who follow the way). SheungRen usually goes with a proper title or Taoist name and is use in documents or books and is in some cases given to the Taoist person by the Emperor or high government officier. There is also a SanRen (loose/idle person) which can be use as pen name. ShanRen (mountain person) is a favorite pan name among the confucian scholars who enjoys the countryside as opposite to the big cities. Usually, scholars use ShanRen for writing fictions or non political/academic articles.

Regards,

Mantis108

15

mantis 9

mantis 9, i would like you to email me (your address is not available on this site). i have something i would like to communicate with you about.
thanks,
roc doc

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Mantis108 and Paul,

Thank you for the lesson.

I wonder if you have any clue why WL, in mantis108 history in particular, he lacks that revolutionary fervor presented in mine. I think it could go back to mantis108 idea of Wang Yongshan changing religious leaning to buddhist, not taoist. However, I would not assume that Taoist, who were Ming, where thrilled to come under the rule of the Manchurins. (I known this statement could well show through my ignorance of Chinese history, but you have to start somewhere.:slight_smile: )

Also, I would like to ask, if anyone out there, or perhaps you, mantis108 and Paul, has any information that points to the contrary? Something that might make you conclude that WL was a buddhist monk, a revolutionary, etc.? Obiviously, there are some branch and families that adhere more to this perspective on WL? Is it simply out of tradition or other factors?

Some sifus in the Lo Gwan Yu lineage offer up the idea that there may have been mutiple “Wong Long” persons that founded the PM style and were later represented in story as one person.

Let me add, when I ask these questions, that I am not looking for “proof”, but ideas, speculations, and circumstancial evidence. Though, if you have “proof” you can offer, please don’t hold that back. :smiley:

I’m just curious.:stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks guys.

PS Roc Doc. I activated the link to my email address, so you can contact me at your convenience.

Bye

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WangLong is Taoist

Wang Long is a Taoist. As you can see that the most tudi all the way till 7th generation didn’t move out of ShangTong provadence. That is where Taoism are common rooted and Buddhism not much there at all, at the time period. There are 2 possibilities that why WL was said to be Buddhist:

  1. As you already thought of, Manchuria (Chin dynasty) honors Buddhism and WL was fighting them at the time. There is a chance that he disguise as a Buddhist to escape the Chin’s search.

  2. Some Martial Artists form Shiao Lin branch can’t accepted the fact that a Taoist WL has defeated the Buddhist Shiao Lin, so they made up story that WL is actually a Shiao Lin Buddhist and therefor Shiao Lin was never beaten.

to 108,

That name system you talking about I think only the wealthy big family does that. There are many different rules if you go to different placese. There one you talked about are the most official one in Chinese culture of name rules. Usually you will see a much simpler rule applied individually. For example: my family have Last name(Sieng) and followed by generation word (20 of them one for each generation, so up on telling name, you know how to call the person–brother, uncle, etc.) and at last the personal word. The name system was lost by most people, the China has the cultural revolution and Taiwan has changed by Western cultrue to be modern. It is so nice to see some one knows such lost cultural treasure in detail. As you can see that I used my real English name any where, and it is my legal name. I don’t make up more names and will ever unless I was reborn(like being a monk).

I think ShengRen(Upper/high man) was title in Buddhism, like famous Chuer Yuane (feel far) ShengRen of Shiao Lin. In Taoist, title like ZhenChun (real gentalmen/honoriable man), ShianRen (supernatural man), BainShian (half-supernatural), LaoTzu (old ancestor) are what I have heard of, may be more, but I can’t think of it now.

18

PaulLin

Between you and mantis108, WL being a taoist, not a buddhist, is a very compelling argument. I asked for evidence to the contrary, not because I don’t believe you and mantis108 or that I think that your assertions are inaccurat, but in the interest of a lively conversation. The post had a two-fold purpose: to entice others beside you, me, and mantis108 to post on this thread and to, perhaps, learn something new that had not become apparent to me before.

You might not have been thinking this, but I wanted to make my intentions clear. I appreciate your posts.

Mantis09

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Hi Paul,

Just as I thought, you recognized it right away. :slight_smile: BTW, my name is formed the same way as yours. It feels good to meet similar cultural background folk on the net. Don’t you think? I think you may be right about the SheungRen title. I thought it is interchangeable but may be not. Thanks for the input.

Hi Mantis 9

Thanks for such a great thread. Just would like you to know that there are other theories and perhaps even evidences that WL was not Ming dynasty but perhaps even older than Ming dynasty (try Northern Song dynasty) . Some suggest that he had “taught” Mantis at Shaolin during the Northern Song dynasty. But I don’t go for that theory for many reasons:

  1. Northern Song was too chaotic and too much emphasis to be civil. Shaolin at the time wasn’t like its glorious past. There weren’t much activities regarding martial practices at the temple except Sifu Ilya Profatilov believes that there are 2 documents said otherwise. Other sources point to the fact that Shaolin’s martial practice was rebuilt by Guo Yuen (feel far) Sheungren during Yuen dynasty.

  2. The strongest point for the Shaolin connection is that the Meihwa lineage has a unknow bandit, who is from south of China, where Henan province Shaolin temple is, could have moved from there to Shandong to avoid capture after WL taught him Mantis. But then bandit is somewhat of ambiqious term because virtually anyone who opposes the government could be dudded the term bandit. He could have been real bandit from other provinces of course. One way or the other we can go in circles with the revolutionist hypothesis.

  3. The main reason why I don’t “want” the Shaolin connection is that it opens doors for the modern Shaolin movie-fu-land, which is THE modern Wushu martial sports factory, to claim yet another authentic Kung Fu system as it’s very own system. To pocket the credit for financial gain that’s very sickening. As far as my understanding goes, even if there was a WL teaching some sort of mantis in the Shaolin temple, the forms that were taught there didn’t resemble any of the forms that we are practicing today. I would even be happy to know that there was a WL who taught Mantis at Shaolin temple, and quite possible to be a Buddhist but he has nothing to do with the Shandong Meihwa Taiji Tanglangquan. I am not a fan of creationism especially when I see all the different training methodolgies that are available in Mantis. I know the stuff that are in mantis are the effort of many true human beings who have sweated and bleeded to pass on their true knowledge. They do kung fu not movie fu fantasy. We need really lineages not legends that can be manipulated by establishments’ (government or otherwise) interests.

Sorry about the rant, but I would like to make myself clear why I am not keen on the Shaolin connection eventhough it might have influenced Mantis to a certain degree at certain point in the past. There are people who believe otherwise. I would love to hear their views as well.

Regards

Mantis108

20

WL story

From GM Wei, he said right after Wang Lang defeated the Shiao Lin monks, he was immediatly invited by the head of the temple (fang zhang) in the backroom for a private tea meeting.(the fang zhang is old, and he didn’t fight, just watched the fights.) After they cool down a little, fang zhang said “one tree don’t bloom with 2 different kind of flowers.” That talk sonds like a poem test, but it is acturally asking WL to see if that he was a competetor in getting #1 place in kung fu and being a enemy to Shiao Lin. WL replied with “all martial artists under the heaven are all brothers.” Which means he is only interested in arts and make friends, not care about being #1 or fame. To follow up his word, WL promise to teach the mantis way to Shiao Lin monks. After one years and a few months, WL left a note and left the temple.

There are differences between the mantis WL taught in ShiaoLin than he taught in ShanTong. The ShiaoLin branch mantis forms are based with ShiaoLin foundations, not Taoist ShanChin Chengchuan. The Taoist branch are make up with ShanChin Chengchuan+other 16 different skills+mantis way. The Shiao Lin should be ShiaoLin foundations(such as palmflower posts foundations and 6 harmony)+mantis way. That is how you can tell if the forms are form Taoist branch or ShiaoLin branch.

The 16 other skill’s include: HanTung’s TongBei, ZhenEn’s FenChan, WenYang’s ShortBoxing, MaChi’s DuanDa, SunHuen’s MonkeyBoxing, HuangZhan’s KaoShen, MainShe’s MeianZhang, JinShian’s GaiShouTongChuan, HuaiDe’s ShuaiJianEinBong, LiuShin’s GuoLuTsiShou, TanFong’s GuinLoGuanEr, YainChin’s NaDea, LinChung’s YuanYian kicks, MongSho’s 7SheLianChuan, TsuiaLian’s WoaLiBuChuei, and YangGuin’s GuinTsai.

According to GM Wei, WL is at the begining of ChinDynasty.

Those are wrote in his book too.