Wingchunners and non wingchunners!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Originally posted by Ernie
… most JKD guys i have come across - though much more effective street fighters hands down , do not have the basics that are part of wing chun , but they make up for it in training and application under pressure as well as being in shape , i have trained with some that have a very deep understanding of the body and how to use it but most are just a mix of boxing, thai and bjj , still a very effective blend , since they train hard.
So you do think there is something to Wing Chun then? I’m inferring from your comment that “Factor-X” in Wing Chun offsets training hard in JKD.

Sometimes you write like there is nothing special in Wing Chun, and then sometimes like there is.

22

Originally posted by CFT
[B]So you do think there is something to Wing Chun then? I’m inferring from your comment that “Factor-X” in Wing Chun offsets training hard in JKD.

Sometimes you write like there is nothing special in Wing Chun, and then sometimes like there is. [/B]

The wing chun training system on paper is a very beautiful thing , through the knowledge I have gained from training in it and now even more so from teaching it ,I can see how all other arts work , why ? simple it’s based on maximizing the human body and understanding the mind . from a combative point of view , so the text book is a very good tool .
That being said I don’t personally feel the training methods are up to a modern standard , beyond the basics which can’t change the core process forms , dummy , chi sau , these are good at developing how to chi sau and creating a micro laboratory to look at body energy lines of attack and insert concepts to test and get familiar with wing chun theory

But this is were most wing chun stops sure they practice a few closing drills against this or that attack , perhaps investigate how the knife , dummy and pole footwork correlate to closing the gap , chasing , kicking stuff like that

But mainly most stay in the chi sau bubble and just get better at the chi sau game , this is were lineage and ego really mess things up , everybody wants to imitate there teachers signature style , there roll there energy , some teachers create step by step systems [ karate business plan ] to emulate there perception and thus the cookie cutter is born .

Wing chun in my eyes doesn’t even start to exist until you leave the safety of your training group and experiment with your personal application , until you gain exposure to the outside elements , on your own with no training wheels or anyone holding your hand then the real questions and answers will come out , only then your individual strengths and weakness will come to light and you can really start to build and get good and understand what wing chun is telling you .

People that are very good and follow the JKD matrix get good by putting in tons of flight time and by having a core style to use as a measuring stick for understanding and comparison , if they base it off there personal development and refine and adapt they get good , but this is a very hard road to follow a lot of pain and training time , since it’s a physically demanding approach most can not maintain the conditioning needed to pull it off , there are many holes when they do things but they train there attributes to a higher level then most [ if there good ] and even though they face a technically better martial artist they blow him out by shear speed endurance or the ability to be elusive and not play his game .

The guys that are not good [ most I have met ] are just a loose combination of mixed arts , they don’t even understand nor care to understand trapping range or body structure so there engine and body mechanics never gets that refinement , sure they can fight and some are real tough guys , but they tend to gravitate to there favorite art and just get good at that aspect , so there not really JKD guys in theory only in name .

The few really skilled wing chun guys I have come across had the same ballistic fighting ability that the higher level JKD guys had , there is an animal way about them a killer essence and they can pull it off under pressure with constancy yet they didn’t need the same degree of conditioning not flight time , this intrigued me about wing chun .

Then you have the guys that are skilled at wing Chun and are conditioned and go out and experience application this is a new group we shall see how they evolve =)

23

Thanks Ernie. It was a long read, but it answered all my questions.

In all seriousness, do you think you would ever get off the Wing Chun horse?

24

Good post Ernie that I totally agree with.

Ray

25

Originally posted by CFT
[B]Thanks Ernie. It was a long read, but it answered all my questions.

In all seriousness, do you think you would ever get off the Wing Chun horse? [/B]

I have no emotional commitment to wing chun , but when trained right [ no lineage , no business, no limitation trying to prove your way is better then the other guy , or my sifu said so stuff ]

It can have very good results

Now what I consider good results are only in combative effectiveness , don’t care about perfect forms or killer chi sau or representing the family name , secret hand shake or pretty shirt with the nice logo , that’s all fluff

So to answer your question until I find a training system that produces better results as a whole [ I have found drills and things others do that have faster results on specific parts ]

Then I will continue to further investigate the wing Chun training system

By sharing it and seeing how people develop
And by further testing it myself in sparring , and researching other systems to see how it stacks up ,

I enjoy research and development . I am very passionate about the process but not close minded to other approaches or material

So for the time being I am attempting to stay in the saddle :smiley:

But I will always hold my individuality and the individuality of those I coach far above any training system , people are more important then a non living thing

Sorry for being so long winded
:cool:

26

Originally posted by Ernie
Sorry for being so long winded :cool:
Not at all. I like your approach to Wing Chun training.

Ever hear of the writer apologising for not having enough time to write a short letter? Or people who are too busy to find ways to work more efficiently?

27

Originally posted by Ernie
[B]I have no emotional commitment to wing chun , but when trained right [ no lineage , no business, no limitation trying to prove your way is better then the other guy , or my sifu said so stuff ]

It can have very good results [/B]

Hi Ernie,

Why try and get Wing Chun to work as opposed to getting some other system, like Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Hsing I, SanDa etc. to work?

Ray

28

Originally posted by YongChun
[B]Hi Ernie,

Why try and get Wing Chun to work as opposed to getting some other system, like Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Hsing I, SanDa etc. to work?

Ray [/B]

The thread is desperatly going very serious but this is a very good question,promising to get a glimpse at Ernie’s actual love and emotional commitment to Wing Chun…
I know he secretly loves Wing Chun and spend many hours in her YGKYM!..:wink:

29

Originally posted by YongChun
[B]Hi Ernie,

Why try and get Wing Chun to work as opposed to getting some other system, like Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Hsing I, SanDa etc. to work?

Ray [/B]

Simple exposure and lasting impression

I grew up watching Bruce lee and other martial art movies , I never was impressed with fancy kicks but something about those hands ripping through a person ,
Then I trained in Korean and Japanese systems as a kid and got my butt kicked by boxers , so I knew there was something wrong with the whole KATA approach , sure I could do the splits and break boards but man when those guys moved I couldn’t hit them .

Then about 8 years ago I saw a little 130 pound guy drop a 200 pound big dude in the blink of an eye and I was like WOW at the time I was a 210 pound body builder and I asked the guy if I could play with him and he lit me up . asked what the hell he was using and he said he had 12 years of wing Chun and 6 years of kali

This dude was just a nobody and to this day I’m hoping to find him and thank him

So that lead me on the path to wing chun , by luck the very day I found a guy to teach me I met my JKD friend Robert and he offered to train me as well both guys didn’t charge a dime , just say how nuts I was and how much I wanted to learn

So exposure and personal experience lead me to wing Chun , during that time I investigated and trained in a list of arts ,

As for the traditional CMA well along the way I sparred people from many of those arts that talked a lot and really believed in there stuff , yet they were and still are the easiest to shut down . the guys that were always hard were the boxers , kick boxers , Thai , FMA and BJJ and still are . so by my personal experience it was a no brainier .

I went to many wing Chun seminars to meet other people and see what they had to offer as well as JKD , FMA
I noticed many of my wing chun brothers and sisters had a small curse , problems with heavy physical pressure and covering distance , and the other CMA guys were even worse couldn’t land anything , sure they were powerful if you just stood there but man get on your toes move around break timing and they were dead

So unless I see that there actually training with contact in a non systematic environment I don’t really have much respect for them in a combative sense , they might have great skills in there system but that doesn’t interest me really , if it takes X amount of years to develop a small amount of skill [ combative ] and this other approach does it in a far short time then I invest my time in the approach that cuts out the fat .

Even in wing Chun I seek the approach that is more calibrated towards combative effectiveness in a short period that has a proven track record ,

You see Ray I really don’t care what you call it or were it’s from as long as it works form me and fits my body and mind this filter allows me to not waste my time and not get into a lineage thing or even style thing .

30

Originally posted by old jong
The thread is desperatly going very serious but this is a very good question,promising to get a glimpse at Ernie’s actual love and emotional commitment to Wing Chun…
I know he secretly loves Wing Chun and spend many hours in her YGKYM!..:wink:

Jong ,
In the first few years I was the YGKYM devote , I would do my hour long stances and sit in room burn incense light a red candle and just focus on my breathing and all that corny stuff =)

I had my rule of 1000 every thing had to be individually broken down 1000 times a week , I did this for a long time all the while sparring and writing notes and searching for the essence of wing chun ,

I am a research junkie 100’s of video’s books you name it . I was training everyday in the ring 4 times a week for 2 years straight .

The Thai guys would make fun of my wing Chun kicking and leg defense the boxers of my wing Chun hands and footwork , and I would get dropped over and over again . then after a while and a lot of coaching from boxers . Robert and my wing chun teachers I think I was on my second or third by this time , the tables started to turn and I was the one hitting and making fun of them causing them to miss and shutting them down .

Then other coaches took notice and suddenly I was one of the boys and they helped me trained with me offered there advice and they are still my friends today , my old boxing coach wants me to teach him wing chun , life is funny that way

And if you must know the truth every morning before the sun came up I was out in Hawaii on my balcony doing my SLT until I saw sunrise , reminiscing on the journey that has lead to this point
:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

31

And if you must know the truth every morning before the sun came up I was out in Hawaii on my balcony doing my SLT until I saw sunrise , reminiscing on the journey that has lead to this point

Did you spot that bird catching the first sunlight on it’s wing?..This is part of the journey too!..
:wink: Good for you friend!..:slight_smile:

32

Originally posted by old jong
Did you spot that bird catching the first sunlight on it’s wing?..This is part of the journey too!..
:wink: Good for you friend!..:slight_smile:

The sea turtles were the first to wake up and greet the day with me :slight_smile:

33

Hey Old Jong,

Perhaps you’re the Non-wingchunner? Ever thought that?

Got it! Build a Delorean back to the fifties twelve hours of SLT..

Great!

34

There are strange blokes on this forum!..:wink: :smiley:

35

Thanks mate. British humour at its worst i’m afraid..

36

Really,I’m back from the future and I saw that the past was right!..But who cares!..We must live in the present!..
Good on you mate! (As they say in one of your colonnies!) :wink:

37

Originally posted by Ernie
And if you must know the truth every morning before the sun came up I was out in Hawaii on my balcony doing my SLT until I saw sunrise , reminiscing on the journey that has lead to this point
:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

[SIZE=3]Aha![/SIZE]

:D;)

Regards,

  • kj
38

Originally posted by kj
[B][SIZE=3]Aha![/SIZE]

:D;)

Regards,

  • kj [/B]

if i had a heavy bag i would have been working a few rounds on that so i had to make do:p

39

Originally posted by Ernie
if i had a heavy bag i would have been working a few rounds on that so i had to make do:p

Yes,we know!..:wink:
Witch brings my next question: [SIZE=3]Are you shy about Wing Chun?..Do you feel like a kid caught masturbating by his mother if you are seen doing SLT?..[/SIZE] :wink:

40

Nah,I love SLT as much as the next man and practice the forms a fair bit.

I think the questions should be:

DO YOU HARK BACK TO THE PAST AND NOT EVOLVE WITH TIME?

DO YOU IMPOSE CONSTRAINTS UPON YOURSELF OR ARE YOU PROGRESSIVE?

ARE YOU OPENMINDED?