6.5 Point Pole/ Baat Jaam Dao.
How do you incorporate them into your training? How do you see the practice of the weapons in the greater context of the system as a whole?
At Gary Lam’s The pole is used for conditioning a coordination. as far as the knives go (I personally) have found nothing but ambiance. But many will tell you that it helps your double hand techniques like quan sau.
there are bucket loads of uses for weapons training in WC, not least learning to fight with the weapons in question (or similar). In addition they help increase power by adding weight and also challenging the practitioner to power the weapon (making the blades sing / pole hum), and just as importantly they hold a magnifying glass to your positions and control of your body by virtue of their length which causes small almost imperceptible differences in hand position look like huge movements when viewed at the tip of the weapon.
Weapons are for killing.
Each kills at a different range and method.
The pole uses kinetic ballistic energy, like Newtons cradle, to displace an object but mantain center alignment.
The mass of the pole combined with body mass in motion and equal arm extension is timed so all available force hits with fatal focus at 1" surface area of the pole tip. Accuracy is amazing , a throat strike…
Now think about our striking arms/hands as two alternating poles, bodies in motion…unity of actions, 3 things at once…throat.
Knives are sharp and kill or maim with ease, so any available arm, body cut or stab is made in a wide evasive exchange , awareness of death or to kill, develops intent…
Tactics show that it is safer to fight on the blindside than like pirate in a movie.
tactics for bare hands but distances, methods, change.
I never learned the pole or butterfly knives. No real need as my Wing Chun was to be a functional tool, and I would not be carrying a pole or knives on me. The razor, brass knuckles, spring blade knife, blackjack, things like that are far more practical since you can stuff them into a pocket.
Tools of the trade.
I just practice them every now and then and don’t agonise over all this “why” sh*t.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1153956]I never learned the pole or butterfly knives. No real need as my Wing Chun was to be a functional tool, and I would not be carrying a pole or knives on me. The razor, brass knuckles, spring blade knife, blackjack, things like that are far more practical since you can stuff them into a pocket.
Tools of the trade.[/QUOTE]
Depends how good you want your “functional tool” to be. Then again if you’re going out carrying dusters and flick knives you don’t need wing chun (and IMO you shouldn’t be taught it)
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1153974]Depends how good you want your “functional tool” to be. Then again if you’re going out carrying dusters and flick knives you don’t need wing chun (and IMO you shouldn’t be taught it)[/QUOTE]
Well, same can be said for the pole and butterfly knives. If you are going to pack a long stick and a pair of short swords why would you need Wing Chun? The only difference here is the choice of weapons. It was understood that I would find occasion to use Wing Chun to fight, and sometimes it simply isn’t going to be enough. Thus the small pocket weapons. Carrying a long stick or a couple of big knives would certainly attract attention, so that was pretty much out of the question. I could have put them to use on several occasions, but the smaller pocket weapons were so much easier to hide.
I am assuming that you practice Wing Chun and the weapons simply for the traditional feel of it all. Cultural or whatever. For me, it is just another weapon that I could hide from public view. Nothing to do with Honor or anything else except to be able to take your lunch money.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1154019]Well, same can be said for the pole and butterfly knives. If you are going to pack a long stick and a pair of short swords why would you need Wing Chun? The only difference here is the choice of weapons. It was understood that I would find occasion to use Wing Chun to fight, and sometimes it simply isn’t going to be enough. Thus the small pocket weapons. Carrying a long stick or a couple of big knives would certainly attract attention, so that was pretty much out of the question. I could have put them to use on several occasions, but the smaller pocket weapons were so much easier to hide.
I am assuming that you practice Wing Chun and the weapons simply for the traditional feel of it all. Cultural or whatever. For me, it is just another weapon that I could hide from public view. Nothing to do with Honor or anything else except to be able to take your lunch money.[/QUOTE]
I train the weapons for two reasons, in case the need and opportunity arises to pick up and utilise an improvised weapon, and to improve my empty hand tools. As you live in Texas and don’t have an issue with carrying / using a weapon, why not simply carry a gun and have done with it?
[QUOTE=WingChunABQ;1153791]6.5 Point Pole/ Baat Jaam Dao.
How do you incorporate them into your training? How do you see the practice of the weapons in the greater context of the system as a whole?[/QUOTE]
I personally feel that I would not know the Wing Chun I know without having learnt the weapons and I was lucky really to have exposure to them quite early on (after about 3 years)
My training is totally interactive too, not just copying the forms. I learnt that our weaponry is ‘paired’ and without a strong stick man your knife will only progress so far and vice versa.
A key reason for the introduction of another systems pole and stick work imho because the knife men had to train with somebody!! 
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1154033]I train the weapons for two reasons, in case the need and opportunity arises to pick up and utilise an improvised weapon, and to improve my empty hand tools. As you live in Texas and don’t have an issue with carrying / using a weapon, why not simply carry a gun and have done with it?[/QUOTE]
I do carry a gun. However, there are still quite a number of establishments that do not allow guns. One I remember right off hand was a Lubby’s restaurant where a man drove his truck through the front door to block exit and walked through shooting everyone. A single gun might have made a big difference, but they had a big red gun on a sign with a slash through it. In fact, I think it might have been the main reason they went ahead and passed that law. I think it was when they finally realized that the law or the police can simply not protect you.
I would rather ask for forgiveness than permission. I carry as well and will carry in any and all restaurants. Bars are different and I would never carry in a bar.
With respect for The police, they cannot and many cases will not protect you. That is not their job. We have been brainwashed into thinking such things.
In many major cities, the police are unable to deal with the amount of calls they have to deal with.
the onus for one’s own self defense is one’s self.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1153956]I never learned the pole or butterfly knives. No real need as my Wing Chun was to be a functional tool, and I would not be carrying a pole or knives on me. The razor, brass knuckles, spring blade knife, blackjack, things like that are far more practical since you can stuff them into a pocket.
Tools of the trade.[/QUOTE]
Brass Knuckles, switchblades, and blackjacks in MA would get your a felony illegal weapons charge, as well as financial penalties and the forfeiture of any CCW permits.
Many Martial Arts systems have their own signature weapon/training tool; for example, WC we have 6.5P and BJD, Xing Yi the Spear, Tai Chi the whippy (not floppy) Jian, TSK the Iron Rings, and Bagua the Deer Horn/Yue, Silat the Karambit etc. The signature weapon represents the key to the Methods and Philosophy of the system, although sometimes not obvious. Understand the signature weapon and you will unlock a big part of the system.
Weapon training is not just about using that specific weapon.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1154166]I do carry a gun. However, there are still quite a number of establishments that do not allow guns. One I remember right off hand was a Lubby’s restaurant where a man drove his truck through the front door to block exit and walked through shooting everyone. A single gun might have made a big difference, but they had a big red gun on a sign with a slash through it. In fact, I think it might have been the main reason they went ahead and passed that law. I think it was when they finally realized that the law or the police can simply not protect you.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1154167]I would rather ask for forgiveness than permission. I carry as well and will carry in any and all restaurants. Bars are different and I would never carry in a bar.
With respect for The police, they cannot and many cases will not protect you. That is not their job. We have been brainwashed into thinking such things.
In many major cities, the police are unable to deal with the amount of calls they have to deal with.
the onus for one’s own self defense is one’s self.[/QUOTE]
You two want to try living in the UK where carrying any kind of concealed weaponry is illegal in the extreme.
[QUOTE=Treznor;1154189]You two want to try living in the UK where carrying any kind of concealed weaponry is illegal in the extreme.[/QUOTE]
I would not live in such a nation.
I feel for anyone who has to deal with not being able to defend themselves against criminals who care nothing for the law and use it to commit crimes.
Self defense is a human right.
[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1154264]I would not live in such a nation.
I feel for anyone who has to deal with not being able to defend themselves against criminals who care nothing for the law and use it to commit crimes.
Self defense is a human right.[/QUOTE]
Dunno. The UK has it’s problems. But on the whole except for political terrorism there appears to be less serious violence in the UK-truer in Canada than in urban centers in the US today. Still- I prefer and choose to be and am an American. Despite problems there is still sufficent
protections from the Bill of Rights and tolerance for diversity. Greatest dangers are from autos.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1154277]----------------------------------------
Dunno. The UK has it’s problems. But on the whole except for political terrorism there appears to be less serious violence in the UK-truer in Canada than in urban centers in the US today. Still- I prefer and choose to be and am an American. Despite problems there is still sufficent
protections from the Bill of Rights and tolerance for diversity. Greatest dangers are from autos.[/QUOTE]
Personally, i dont get the whole “allowed to carry a gun” thing. Im in Australia where its illegal, and nobody does, and our national homicide rate is around 60-80 a year
It works and i dont see an argument against it
[QUOTE=GlennR;1154285]Personally, i dont get the whole “allowed to carry a gun” thing. Im in Australia where its illegal, and nobody does, and our national homicide rate is around 60-80 a year
It works and i dont see an argument against it[/QUOTE]
Glenn- I agree but the National Rifle Association is one of the most powerful lobbyists on the planet.
And, American gun culture is very deeply embedded. In Arizona where I live- the Colt .45
is part of the state’s symbols including flowers etc.
In my neighborhood for over 26 years I know of no one who has had to use a gun against a criminal- but my teenaged lawn mowing guy was shot to death by a class mate with easy access to guns -a 100 yards from my house. An estranged girl friend was shot to death by her ex friend
50 yards from my house..he then shot himself a 100 yards from my house.And in Tucson where I used to live Congresswoman Gabby Gifford was shot and very badly injured by an unbalanced individual with easy access to guns.The gunman killed and injured several other people at the scene.
But- then as I quote ( in a manuscript) the late Rafael Sabbatini’s famous opening lines in his adventure novel Scaramouche.. “he was born witha gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad”!!
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1154277]----------------------------------------
Dunno. The UK has it’s problems. But on the whole except for political terrorism there appears to be less serious violence in the UK-truer in Canada than in urban centers in the US today. Still- I prefer and choose to be and am an American. Despite problems there is still sufficent
protections from the Bill of Rights and tolerance for diversity. Greatest dangers are from autos.[/QUOTE]
A good friend of mine, an American, went to graduate school in York. He admitted to me a certain stereotype of the British as being effete and delicate. He was shocked at the level of street violence he encountered. Street brawls and general acrimony were almost a daily occurance there, he said, owing to copious amounts of daily alcohol consumption and large groups of unemployed, bored youth.
Seems like a pretty good place to know Wing Chun.
On the other hand, the possibility that an opponent in an American street fight has a gun or knife hidden on his person or in his car nearby helps, I think, mitigate the frequency of fist fights, even if it does exacerbate the consequences.
Solution: carry a pair of butterfly swords on your hip. People will think you’re too insane to mess with.