This a sequence WSL showed to avoid, why I mentioned angles wrong and following punch…
[QUOTE=GlennR;1207620]Yep… utter nonsense!!
What he should be doing is showing his unmatched chi-sao skills, with compliant students, on endless youtube clips!!
Oh, too late… someone has already done that[/QUOTE]
Where’s this animosity coming from? We’ve never met and I’ve done nothing to you. In all my years in the martial arts I’ve never badmouthed, trash talked, insulted, etc., another martial artist. Even when I see something I disagree with. I like to keep peace in our diverse Wing Chun family and follow Mo Duk. But that’s me. 
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1207774]This a sequence WSL showed to avoid, why I mentioned angles wrong and following punch…[/QUOTE]
He’s using centerline principles which is all good. I was using central line. There’s a difference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdOmnxmnfv8
[QUOTE=LFJ;1207647]Let’s do some image snapping. 
Is this not the image in the Wing Chun Dictionary entry for “Chasing Hands”?
I wouldn’t want to find myself in such a position, especially not intentionally thinking it is good and I’m gonna pull off a few more moves before the next hand comes.
[/QUOTE]
This is what I see. A guy stopping from hitting with the following hand. If he feints you to do this … Then what ?
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1207788]Where’s this animosity coming from? We’ve never met and I’ve done nothing to you. In all my years in the martial arts I’ve never badmouthed, trash talked, insulted, etc., another martial artist. Even when I see something I disagree with. I like to keep peace in our diverse Wing Chun family and follow Mo Duk. But that’s me. :-)[/QUOTE]
I like mo duk too. I also like mo chicken, mo turkey, and mo gravy. Seriously Phil it’s not animosity. We think what you showed violates some of the basic principles of wing chun and we’re saying so and saying why. Anyone who does any insulting or name calling is straight out the window but there’s nothing wrong with objectively dissecting what we consider very bad technique.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1207788]Where’s this animosity coming from? We’ve never met and I’ve done nothing to you. In all my years in the martial arts I’ve never badmouthed, trash talked, insulted, etc., another martial artist. Even when I see something I disagree with. I like to keep peace in our diverse Wing Chun family and follow Mo Duk. But that’s me. :-)[/QUOTE]
Phil, youve now replied to this twice and missed my reply.. it was a joke aimed at G and K
what does this demonstrate?
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1207774]This a sequence WSL showed to avoid, why I mentioned angles wrong and following punch…[/QUOTE]
I see three pics. The guy in the trunks does a left darn bo chin choi and the other guy does Hop Gar attack hands to the bridge. The guy in the trunks does a weak right sim bo chin choi and the other guy does a wiper to the bridge. The guy in the trunks does a kinda sorta chin choi/ chow choi and hits the guy. What is this suppose to demonstrate and how does it add to the discussion of Phil’s technique that he has graciously shared with us? Please detail your argument. Thank you. All the best.
SKM
[QUOTE=LFJ;1207723]That’s what I asked Phil. Of course I would never do this technique. Even if they weren’t charging forward, I wouldn’t cross myself and jat on the wrong side. It’s just asking for the second punch.
The round punch never laterally crossed his center line. It was coming from the outside and Phil crossed himself to chase and catch the hand on the opposite/wrong side to move it and get to the opponent’s blind side. It’s trying too hard to get outside, doing something that puts him in a bad position at least, and at worst would be disastrous.[/QUOTE]
As Phil explained, this is a demonstration to his students from a static position. Imagine his student stepped laterally with the left foot as he struck Phil. That is a totally different set of values. Then of course Phil will need to go from the inside to the outside to solution that because the next step is coming in and with it a punch(es). The only thing his opponent can do after Phil has gone to the outside is retreat and reset, otherwise Phil is going to chase him and impale him.
Insofar as the technique being to slow, it looks like snapping a paperclip. It is an open-snap-close that is insectine in it’s application. It is very tight and imperceptible until done and by that time the opponent realizes they better bail out or face the consequences. So please understand that when I talk about lateral, I am not referring to the fist technique. I am referring to the footwork, which is actually the key to performing the move correctly. For more information on this, please reference the second video that Phil posted about “central line”. Hope this helps. All the best.
SKM
We have a similar technique in our dummy form. I don’t see anything wrong with the idea of the application.
The structure doesn’t pass to HFY spec, nor does the stance or footwork, but Phil doesn’t do HFY - so what can I really say about it other than i disagree based on lineage?
One bigger difference spatially is when we will pull the arm out to the wrist before circling the bridge - we tend to move more laterally than front to back as Phil does here. Gets you further away from that other arm and leaves you in a better position for striking IMO.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1207788]Where’s this animosity coming from? We’ve never met and I’ve done nothing to you. In all my years in the martial arts I’ve never badmouthed, trash talked, insulted, etc., another martial artist. Even when I see something I disagree with. I like to keep peace in our diverse Wing Chun family and follow Mo Duk. But that’s me. :-)[/QUOTE]
Phil, think you might owe Glen an apology, you clearly didn’t read his post properly before posting. He was actually having a dig at others and in effect fighting your corner by defending your post. Go back and read what he wrote, then read his next post and I think you will agree.
[QUOTE=SKM;1207719]Now insofar as “four techniques”, tell that to any Pa Kua or Hsing I practitioner who utilizes an-chi-lo-fan. Ask them if they are doing four techniques. They will tell you it is one technique. In similar vein, Phil does one technique. It can be broken down into different parts for teaching purposes but when it comes to application, it is one technique. And of course he would want to get to the outside with a CLF practitioner because the opponent has just laterally crossed his center line setting him up for a checkmate. Phil solutions that brilliantly and I applaud him for engaging with strangers who do not fight his style.
[/QUOTE]
Your post above illustrates well that you don’t do or for that matter understand wing chin. Compound movements or strings of moves however you wish to describe them are in violation of the wing chun principles of taking the most direct route to the centre and the principle of economy of motion. Why use multiple stages when one will do. Not commenting on what Phil was doing in his clip merely high lighting why your analogies of other arts are flawed.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1207829]Phil, think you might owe Glen an apology, you clearly didn’t read his post properly before posting. He was actually having a dig at others and in effect fighting your corner by defending your post. Go back and read what he wrote, then read his next post and I think you will agree.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Ian, you got it in one.
On re reading what i wrote i can see how Phil thought i was having a dig at him but i thought my explanation would have sorted that
Not to worry… im actually a big fan of Phils
Apology to Glenn R
I’ve been away from here for a while and was wondering how my brothers and sisters here were doing. I wanted to share the clip with my family. Yes, I consider us a family no matter how dysfunctional. I guess I felt like I was attacked. I’m in Cali but I still have the NYC comeback. I jumped the gun Glenn and I apologize.
understanding wing chin (sp?)
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1207831]Your post above illustrates well that you don’t do or for that matter understand wing chin. Compound movements or strings of moves however you wish to describe them are in violation of the wing chun principles of taking the most direct route to the centre and the principle of economy of motion. Why use multiple stages when one will do. Not commenting on what Phil was doing in his clip merely high lighting why your analogies of other arts are flawed.[/QUOTE]
Assuming you are talking to me about Wing Chun, I respect your statement and you appear as an intelligent person. That being said, I can use the same logic on you and tell you that because you do not do the training I do, you do not do or for that matter understand what I do or for that mater what Phil is doing. I understand what he is doing and admire it. I do not study or train Wing Chun. I have explored training in Wing Chun and decided what I do is best for me. To say there is no cross-over in understanding is to say you do not understand what water is because you live by a river and not on the seashore or visa versa.
I understand what Phil is doing because it is a principle of motion that I understand. I know what it is and the reason he developed it. Phil knows the how, why, and more important, the what of his Wing Chun. Does it violate the Wing Chun principle of the Golden Mean? Prove it to me beyond a shadow of doubt and I will say, “Right on brother, you understand.” All the best. Thank you.
SKM
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1207561]The angles you use are wrong, you are getting away with it because the guy stops and doesn’t follow in …[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t so much concerned with my upper hand.I made the clip for another Wing Chun Sifu who wanted to know how we used the Fook/Fuhk. I was mostly concerned to show him why the elbow concept (Mo Yul Jiang), immovable elbow was important.
In NYC I’ve fought some CLF guys. They’ll strike and hope you block so they can use a corkscrew punch and fall into a Sei Ping Mah and strike you with a Ginger Fist in the rib cage. Yes, my high block was not “on point”. I wanted to show the other guy that you can apply a Fook even when attacked to the upper gate. I was using 0:27 in the following clip except I was apply it from the Central (not center), line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcwwzgIwaLE
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1207845]I’ve been away from here for a while and was wondering how my brothers and sisters here were doing. I wanted to share the clip with my family. Yes, I consider us a family no matter how dysfunctional. I guess I felt like I was attacked. I’m in Cali but I still have the NYC comeback. I jumped the gun Glenn and I apologize.[/QUOTE]
No problem Phil, it can be hard to decipher some of the comments here and mine was in that group..
Hope youre well and training hard
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1207794]This is what I see. A guy stopping from hitting with the following hand. If he feints you to do this … Then what ?[/QUOTE]
This was a demo to show the use of the fook. I wasn’t in “combat” mode.
What do I do if someone flips the script? I interrupt and do something else like we all do in Chi Sao.
[QUOTE=GlennR;1207848]No problem Phil, it can be hard to decipher some of the comments here and mine was in that group..
Hope youre well and training hard[/QUOTE]
So far so good. Thx,
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1207847]I wasn’t so much concerned with my upper hand.I made the clip for another Wing Chun Sifu who wanted to know how we used the Fook/Fuhk. I was mostly concerned to show him why the elbow concept (Mo Yul Jiang), immovable elbow was important.
In NYC I’ve fought some CLF guys. They’ll strike and hope you block so they can use a corkscrew punch and fall into a Sei Ping Mah and strike you with a Ginger Fist in the rib cage. Yes, my high block was not “on point”. I wanted to show the other guy that you can apply a Fook even when attacked to the upper gate. I was using 0:27 in the following clip except I was apply it from the Central (not center), line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcwwzgIwaLE[/QUOTE]
I use the huen sao against inside low strikes against boxers. I cant turn at all like you are doing or Im toast. I rely on a tight elbow with cutting line, as slt.
WSL had some ideas I can share when we meet. I know you’re past lineage wars ; )
[QUOTE=SKM;1207821]I see three pics. The guy in the trunks does a left darn bo chin choi and the other guy does Hop Gar attack hands to the bridge. The guy in the trunks does a weak right sim bo chin choi and the other guy does a wiper to the bridge. The guy in the trunks does a kinda sorta chin choi/ chow choi and hits the guy. What is this suppose to demonstrate and how does it add to the discussion of Phil’s technique that he has graciously shared with us? Please detail your argument. Thank you. All the best.
SKM[/QUOTE]
The “other guy” on the right is Wong Shun Leung, ever heard of him ? 