I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.
Me and my friend practice together yesterday.
My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.
The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.
I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.
Any ideas?
[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1151605]I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.[/QUOTE]
A simple Jab is easy to deal with using Pak Sau or Tan Sau… but how would you know the opponent is throwing a simple Jab?
The Jab can be a feint, followed by combos, followed by a kick, turn into an elbow, turn into a hook, followed by a take down etc etc etc… or it can really be a Jab!
So, how effective is the Pak Sau and the Tan Sau against the changes? Something to think about 
i use Pak Sau, wu sau from the outside and or chain punch depending on skill level of the boxer who is throwing the jab. AS for the Tan Sau turning horse that is a slower motion. an the jab may be more than just one…
When i jab i do so to find openings. I will jab two three to five times before throwing a left cross or hook. If you turn your tan to intercept my jab I will quickly switch to few hooks. Because now you have turned your center away. ne way just my opinion!
[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1151605]I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.
Me and my friend practice together yesterday.
My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.
The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.
I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.
Any ideas?
Nunchuck Guy[/QUOTE]
The Kulo “Tiger Tail Hammer” and “Double Dragon” looks a bit like the 52 Blocks “Skull and Cross Bones”, with more emphasis on controlling the opponent’s elbows and more offensive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38uVH9-DCdk
I don’t have a clip of the actual application, but the Sansik/Sansau complete set is here (re-post)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM
An easier to see version (repost):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=2QJHBkyB9fc
i just posted in your other thread about bong sau in boxing an made mention of 52 blocks…wow thats a conicidence you now speaking about it…
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1151621]The Kulo “Tiger Tail Hammer” and “Double Dragon” looks a bit like the 52 Blocks “Skull and Cross Bones”, with more emphasis on controlling the opponent’s elbows and more offensive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38uVH9-DCdk
I don’t have a clip of the actual application, but the Sansik/Sansau complete set is here (re-post)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM
An easier to see version (repost):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=2QJHBkyB9fc[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1151625]i just posted in your other thread about bong sau in boxing an made mention of 52 blocks…wow thats a conicidence you now speaking about it…[/QUOTE]
Haha, great minds think alike 
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1151628]Haha, great minds think alike [/QUOTE]
Yes i just commented on another Post you made…interesting…Yes yes…good to have things in common with people…Yea this elbow block is common you will find 52 blocks being displayed in some black movies!!!
[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1151605]I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.
Me and my friend practice together yesterday.
My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.
The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.
I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.
Any ideas?
Nunchuck Guy[/QUOTE]
Use your feet.
The jab is a range finder, if you stay on the end of it you will get hit with the following shots. If he steps in and out of range you can use kicks to the lead leg to break the rythmn, but whether you intercept with kicks or arms you should be looking to close the gap stepping in on angles. As a previous poster pointed out, in reality you don’t know its going to be a jab so your response has to be multifunctional. I find angling and driving forward have the highest % success rate for me, but you need to really work the footwork and be able to change direction rapidly (especially when you train with people who do MMA and use the jab to set up the shoot / change in level). Only my 10 cents
[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1151605]I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.
Me and my friend practice together yesterday.
My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.
The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.
I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.
Any ideas?
Nunchuck Guy[/QUOTE]
My opinion…
Tan sau is NOT designed for blocking hooks as commonly thought in Wing Chun. The reason why most people struggle to make it work only proves this. Certain guys, because they have been taught that it IS for blocking hooks, start to add other stuff in which only moves even further from the original idea.
In many WC schools you see the same old BS. People throwing slow controlled hooks and the WC student pivoting and using Tan Sau to block the inside and a simultaneous punch to the center line. I think I saw this again in a video from a regular poster on here.
There are too many problems with using a Tan Sau against a hook punch. You would have to throw this action perfectly to make it work because of the oppoents elbow joint puts you in danger of still being hit. Other problems are the speed in which arcing punches are thrown and the subsequent punches that may follow. As most people just try and charge up the center or move to the outside 9 times out of 10 you will eventually get hit.
I was originally taught to use a Tan Sau to block hooks so I know the ideas. In a nutshell it’s stupid thing to do! There is no time in a real fight to pivot from side to side swinging tan sau’s around trying to block hooks.
Because this idea is flawed many WC sifu starting adding other centerlines and all different types of footwork to try and give this technique some effectiveness. Truth is that if you come up against anybody that can fight then you will get hit! As soon as you are put under pressure and realise that your tan sau’s are not working then you will resort back to what all humans do in a time of danger and resort back to our natural behaviour. Faliling, swinging uncontrolled punches and wildly grabbing to try and not get hurt.
Wing Chun deserves bad press for these ideas amongest many other things! In my opinion most of you chaps are only adding fuel to the fire!
I havent used a Tan Sau for silly hook blocking in 5 years but do I use it all the time as, for me, its a punching idea!
Back to lurk mode! mwah
GH
I 100% agree with graham regarding a taan defense against a hook - bad bad idea. Not enough distance between you and the arm when facing the hook with a taan as the attacker’s arm can still snap/bend at the elbow and hit you.
Another issue is range to your opponent. With your shorter range taan sau (bent elbow) against the shorter range hook (bent elbow) you are a lot closer to your opponent’s other hand - even if you ‘step offline’. It’s just simple geometry.
From a strictly technique POV, biu sau works much better against the hook.
For taan vs. jab. This works fine - as long as you are not just going for taan vs. jab 
In WC, we don’t match technique for technique (at least not in WC I train). That would be relying completely on speed and luck to win out. And since our opponent is leading the action by throwing the jab first, we will always be a step behind unless we are much much faster, which is something we can’t guarantee. I say luck for reasons mentioned early - you would have to know exactly what type of attack is coming to simply taan a jab.
Besides, taan isn’t a block. My understanding is you don’t just ‘use’ taan, our jong sau turns into taan after contact is made and we feel/read the energy. Then, our shape turns into taan to disapate or spread the energy, which is what ‘taan’ means. It’s a secondary action, which can happen very fast after that initial contact is made, which then gives us the time to absorb and redirect the attack on touch (minor footwork and facing changes might apply at this point). Matching taan vs. jab as a blocking technique relies almost completely on sight and speed alone, and our reaction times will be much slower this way than vs. reacting by touch.
Again, this is speaking mainly from a technique POV. From my lineage, HFY’s box and gate theories would apply, and will change the way taan sau is used based on facing, distance and contact/leverage points.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1151660]My opinion…
Tan sau is NOT designed for blocking hooks as commonly thought in Wing Chun. The reason why most people struggle to make it work only proves this. Certain guys, because they have been taught that it IS for blocking hooks, start to add other stuff in which only moves even further from the original idea.
Agree- !!
Neither can a tan sau by itself stop a fast jab. Lots of folks don’t doa good tan and don’t know when to do a tan.
joy
Sorry buddy the thread is not about blocking Hooks but its about defending against the jab!!!
[QUOTE=Graham H;1151660]My opinion…
Tan sau is NOT designed for blocking hooks as commonly thought in Wing Chun. The reason why most people struggle to make it work only proves this. Certain guys, because they have been taught that it IS for blocking hooks, start to add other stuff in which only moves even further from the original idea.
In many WC schools you see the same old BS. People throwing slow controlled hooks and the WC student pivoting and using Tan Sau to block the inside and a simultaneous punch to the center line. I think I saw this again in a video from a regular poster on here.
There are too many problems with using a Tan Sau against a hook punch. You would have to throw this action perfectly to make it work because of the oppoents elbow joint puts you in danger of still being hit. Other problems are the speed in which arcing punches are thrown and the subsequent punches that may follow. As most people just try and charge up the center or move to the outside 9 times out of 10 you will eventually get hit.
I was originally taught to use a Tan Sau to block hooks so I know the ideas. In a nutshell it’s stupid thing to do! There is no time in a real fight to pivot from side to side swinging tan sau’s around trying to block hooks.
Because this idea is flawed many WC sifu starting adding other centerlines and all different types of footwork to try and give this technique some effectiveness. Truth is that if you come up against anybody that can fight then you will get hit! As soon as you are put under pressure and realise that your tan sau’s are not working then you will resort back to what all humans do in a time of danger and resort back to our natural behaviour. Faliling, swinging uncontrolled punches and wildly grabbing to try and not get hurt.
Wing Chun deserves bad press for these ideas amongest many other things! In my opinion most of you chaps are only adding fuel to the fire!
I havent used a Tan Sau for silly hook blocking in 5 years but do I use it all the time as, for me, its a punching idea!
Back to lurk mode! mwah
GH[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1151692]Sorry buddy the thread is not about blocking Hooks but its about defending against the jab!!![/QUOTE]
The TCMA “(Gua) - comb hair” should be the best defense to be used againt the jab. In boxing, it’s called “crazy monkey”. After a left Gua to deflect a right jab, and a right Gua to deflect a left jab, both of your arms are inside of your opponnet’s arms. You can then enter your opponent’s front door (centerline).
[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1151605]I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.
Me and my friend practice together yesterday.
My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.
The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.
I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.
Any ideas?
Nunchuck Guy[/QUOTE]
tbh, I’d take everything that’s said with a grain of salt. I believe there’s really no way to get good answers unless you just keep at least sparring with someone else. There’s just too many variables that can be added to a jab. A jab can really mean anything. Is it a quick jab for the purpose of opening your guard? A stronger jab meant to set the way for a cross? A pivoting jab which will change your opponents position? A jab while retreating (which would make a pak sao useless unless you can move in really well) A jab at strange unorthodox angles? Several jabs thrown with varying speed and power?
outside pak is good, i def wouldn’t deny that, but it wouldn’t be good in all the situations i mentioned above + others that may arise. personally, i find that the best thing to train when sparring a kickboxer or boxer is using strong footwork. Being able to advance, retreat, pivot, etc will put you in places where you’ll figure out which defense to use. Sometimes, you can deal with punches coming your way just by keeping jong sao up. In regards to pak, from my own experience I find that pak alone merely blocks a punch and sets up nothing. a pak-tan or pak-jong, or pak-pak+da clears the way pretty well, but that’s just for me.
just my 2c
If you’re just looking for tools, Gahn sao works reasonably well from the outside, Tiu Sao from the inside. There’s a lot of variables in footwork, strategy and engagement though which makes it very difficult to give you a “Just do X” type of answer. I’m with the other folks in saying that you should keep sparring an experimenting and you’ll eventually figure it out.
I should also say these type of questions are what HFY Kiu Sao answers -“how do you form a proper engagement based on changing circumstances?” It shortcuts the “figuring out” stage significantly.
I agree with just about everything EternalSpring said above. There are a lot of different ways to jab, and WC has many ways to deal with them. Sparring will help you figure this out for sure! My previous post was just in regards to using only taan sau against a jab. There are many more ‘tools’ that can be used
IMO, one of the best deffences against most punches is to start with a jong sau, as ES mention. If the jong works (with or without footwork as needed), then you don’t need anything else. If it needs to ‘change’ to something else, at least you have your major gate & reference point/leverage established to work from.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1151608]A simple Jab is easy to deal with using Pak Sau or Tan Sau… but how would you know the opponent is throwing a simple Jab?
The Jab can be a feint, followed by combos, followed by a kick, turn into an elbow, turn into a hook, followed by a take down etc etc etc… or it can really be a Jab!
So, how effective is the Pak Sau and the Tan Sau against the changes? Something to think about ;)[/QUOTE] You have a valid point. But you can train to determine the line of attack of the jab.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1151660]My opinion…
Tan sau is NOT designed for blocking hooks as commonly thought in Wing Chun. The reason why most people struggle to make it work only proves this. Certain guys, because they have been taught that it IS for blocking hooks, start to add other stuff in which only moves even further from the original idea.
In many WC schools you see the same old BS. People throwing slow controlled hooks and the WC student pivoting and using Tan Sau to block the inside and a simultaneous punch to the center line. I think I saw this again in a video from a regular poster on here.
There are too many problems with using a Tan Sau against a hook punch. You would have to throw this action perfectly to make it work because of the oppoents elbow joint puts you in danger of still being hit. Other problems are the speed in which arcing punches are thrown and the subsequent punches that may follow. As most people just try and charge up the center or move to the outside 9 times out of 10 you will eventually get hit.
I was originally taught to use a Tan Sau to block hooks so I know the ideas. In a nutshell it’s stupid thing to do! There is no time in a real fight to pivot from side to side swinging tan sau’s around trying to block hooks.
Because this idea is flawed many WC sifu starting adding other centerlines and all different types of footwork to try and give this technique some effectiveness. Truth is that if you come up against anybody that can fight then you will get hit! As soon as you are put under pressure and realise that your tan sau’s are not working then you will resort back to what all humans do in a time of danger and resort back to our natural behaviour. Faliling, swinging uncontrolled punches and wildly grabbing to try and not get hurt.
Wing Chun deserves bad press for these ideas amongest many other things! In my opinion most of you chaps are only adding fuel to the fire!
I havent used a Tan Sau for silly hook blocking in 5 years but do I use it all the time as, for me, its a punching idea!
Back to lurk mode! mwah
GH[/QUOTE]
A hook is too tight to block anyway. Especially with a Tan.
Pak Sau and Wu Sau are best for fast Jabs!
[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1151605]I want to train myself to fight against kickboxers with Wing Chun.
Me and my friend practice together yesterday.
My theory is to first train to counter long range attacks and then slowly move into close range where Chi Sao moves are applicable.
The first problem I face is the fast jabs of a boxer.
I found outside Pak Sao really effective. But while using inside Tan Sao, it only works when I turn horse or else I need to use a lot of force to deflect that punch.
Any ideas?
Nunchuck Guy[/QUOTE]
I really like Steve Lee Swift’s Wing Chun Fighter III for this scenario.