one is not to use tan sao, the way that he {GRa–} is useing it.
the hook punch will come in and knock him out.
I don;t know how good or bad, he is but one thing for sure he is
not doing the tan sao, as it should be done. MUST PUT BODY,AND
ELBOW INTO IT.
huh?
who’se not doing the tan sao right? gracie?
in what context?
i think you lost us.
oh ok,
this is a thread that was supposed to be a post on the grados thread but you clicked new thread by mistake?
ok i see sorry!
Hi,
Tan Sau is useless against a hook - a proper tight boxing hook or jab, and not these drunken haymakers you see being drilled at soo many classes.
It has to be biu against a hook / jab / cross - it covers a much wider range, is structurally stronger and there is little chance of leakage over the elbow like in tan sau.
Test it in sparring - I gurantee whenthe pressure is on the biu wil come out !!!
Stu
Wrong time and space?
Although I have not seen what it is Cheito Ito is talking about, from what I understand of Tan Sau and hooked-punches, Tan Sau is not compatible with those attacks due to space coverage.
Tan Sau:
I agree with using the Biu Sau as a very simple and effective way to secure the head area against a hook, rather than a Tan Sau. The shape of the Biu Sau is more complimentary to that of hooked-punches.
Tan Sau, as I know it (gotta have a qualifier!), is used to redirect a direct/forward challenge against your centerline - like from a WC Punch where the elbow is down, shearing its attack to the side as it passes using a corkscrew motion in the forearm.
Biu Sau:
What type of Biu Sau are you using? I am aware of two types:
-
a biu sau that thrusts forward from center (a forward nature).
-
a biu sau that thrusts towards the shoulder (a sideways nature).
Is yours used to intercept (offensive) the punch or redirect (defensive) it? Is the elbow of the biu sau locked out, angled down, slight flex in it? How high is it, nose heigth, shoulder heigth, forehead heigth?
Structure:
The Biu Sau I train has a slight flex at the elbow, with the elbow angled down (slightly sunken) so that my body position can support the arm structure (from a geometric standpoint). The knife-edge of the arm should be facing outward to be used for contact surface and steering.
Energy:
I have also trained that the Biu Sau should have “Loi Lau Hoi Sung” (retain what comes, escort what goes) aspect to it. Reason one, to connect their energies to yours. Reason two, to transfer energy from you to them. In a word, harmonizing. Stiff-arming and over-extending a Biu Sau is counter-productive to maintaining your time and space. Rather, utilize an accelerated burst; a spontaneous energy pulse, to disable the incoming attack. This is akin to attacking the attack with a whipping quality to it.
Of course, Biu Sau may not be the only answer, but I thought it would be nice to add in my take about the Biu Sau.
Cheers.
Hi Savi,
The biu against a hook comes from the dummy before you go into po pai section. The biu starts from a wu sau and projects out at 45 degree with biu shape being quite rounded.
The last time my Sifu, Master SamKwok did a seminar for me, we tested this in detail with my srudent Mark ( 6ft 2 , 16 stone, ex-boxer) throwing full tight hooks and jabs at Sifu kwok - the biu worked every time.
Tan is pretty worthless in this situation.
Regards, Stu
Not sure if I agree with you guys on this one. I have been able to use Tan to defend against a hook punch while sparring.
I think it all depends on you body positioning when you execute the Tan in correlation with your opponents positioning.
You aren’t just puting your arm out to stop the strike you are turning and using your body behind the motion. We normally use this in conjunction with a similtaneous strike.
I am not on about using this technique against scrubs. My main training partners are all experienced MA’ists. We all have some form of Muay Thai and boxing background too. So we aren’t just throwing wild haymakers.
At the end of the day though, each to their own. Use what works for you!
if we are gonna start making bold claims and such about certain things not working and blah blah blah. then let’s look at a few things:
Shifting tan sau? as the hook puncher (classic right angle boxer hook) twists his trunk for the strike the hook punchee shifts the line and matching the angle of the strike…
is it a biu against a hook? or is it a go bong sau? Think about it.
why not step outside and cover, why not kick? why not…? because every situation is different and if you limit your kung fu because of something that someone said on the internet, then it’s just going to be weak.
Why not train the “wrong” technique? Your kung fu should be able to work at all levels and that means training the “wrong” stuff as well.
and don’t forget the easiest, if somone even a trained boxer uses a hook punch, step to center with a solid horse and put them off balance, their fist will end behind your head while you have a big opening to go through. Basic tsui ma-- step through the center.
Savi: it is my understanding, for what it is worth, that the biu sau you describe is Go bong sau, because it is the same as the one i use. benny may change it up and give new names but it’s still Moy Yat Kung Fu. To most everyone else it would look like a biu sau but the difference is the energy applied. go bong sau as the name implies has bon sau energy. Biu sau has a hard nature like the lan sau.
Originally posted by Vyvial
Savi: it is my understanding, for what it is worth, that the biu sau you describe is Go bong sau, because it is the same as the one i use. benny may change it up and give new names but it’s still Moy Yat Kung Fu. To most everyone else it would look like a biu sau but the difference is the energy applied. go bong sau as the name implies has bon sau energy. Biu sau has a hard nature like the lan sau.
Sound like a Go Bong sau to me as well. We use it in TWC
Uh, no.
I’m sorry I don’t have too much time at the moment to discuss in detail my thoughts, but what I have trained in Biu Sau and Go Bong Sau are two completely different “techniques” in structure, nature and energies.
I’ll have to reply back in more detail when I have more time… sorry.
Originally posted by Vyvial
Savi:benny may change it up and give new names but…
FWIW, I just read an article in IKF magazine about a guy (forgot his name already) who combined a few things from some philipino system w/ his wing chun and dubbed it: Extreme Wing Chun (seriously thats what he calls it). Now, when reading his article some things he adapted from this philipino system is using the guarding hand (the wu sao) as extra support to the more extended hand. So if someone were to throw a right hook at you, you could step in and shift + tan sao + support your tan sao with your wu sao, and block the hook with the left arm. I have never tried it, nor do I think I would comitt that much to a hook punch. Its also probably not centerline theory either, but I have not seen pictures on read how it was described. When I get home I can pick up the magazine and post this guys name and maybe a weblink if I can find one.
However, I think footwork and positioning is key to avoiding hooks, and going for the weak side.
Originally posted by Vyvial
Why not train the “wrong” technique? Your kung fu should be able to work at all levels and that means training the “wrong” stuff as well.
I’d rather not waste my time. Better to use that time to better the techniques.
if somone even a trained boxer uses a hook punch, step to center with a solid horse and put them off balance, their fist will end behind your head while you have a big opening to go through.
Behind your head where he can hit the back of your skull. Yes, easy thing to do - very risky too.
Problem with Moy Yat kung fu: Very dangerous - but not to the opponent. Maybe too much training of the wrong stuff.
So, Went did Tan Sau stop? Stop by itself? stop by the coming force? stop by… Hmmmm
when did your tan sau stop in you SLT and in real life? Hmmm
Originally posted by Phenix
[B]So, Went did Tan Sau stop? Stop by itself? stop by the coming force? stop by… Hmmmm
when did your tan sau stop in you SLT and in real life? Hmmm [/B]
My tan sau stopped when my girlfriend dumped me.
OK…
Tan Sau
While Tan Sau may be a viable tool against a hook punch if done with Kwan Ma (bracing), it still creates a loss of Deui Ying (facing).
I see an advantage of using Tan Sau with bracing is that:
1. It does allow a simultaneous offense and defense. (If it doesn’t work, prepare to grapple.)
I also see the disadvantages of it:
[i]1. The hook punch may still snake behind the forearm of the Tan Sau
-
The Tan Sau elbow position is not proper for engagement, or energy control and bridge control; Tan Sau becomes a block rather than a dispersion
-
If successful, it still requires more effort for a Fahn Sau (following hand). By bracing to face the hooked punch, the range of the “Tan Sau” hand increases the further it goes from the attacker, thus creating a “long arm-short arm” problem. This is not in accord with Deui Ying Concept or Centerline Theory. On top of that, this type of application against the hook punch exposes your backside.[/i]
I see the use of bracing as an extremely high risk maneuver considering the proximity of the attacker WITHOUT the bridges under your control. I say it is best to step outside the central space, unless they give you no other choice. Keep it simple and unleash hell from the side, yo.
Originally posted by Vvyial
Savi: it is my understanding, for what it is worth, that the biu sau you describe is Go bong sau, because it is the same as the one i use. benny may change it up and give new names but it’s still Moy Yat Kung Fu.
I have trained in the Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kuen, and even in MYVTK, Biu Sau and Bong Sau have distinctly different purposes and structure. I am quite familiar with how they are used, and they are not the same. BTW, your comment/assumption about my Sigung are unfounded and far from the truth. Try and stick to the topic.
Biu Sau and Bong Sau
A Biu Sau has the wrist higher than the elbow, while a Bong Sau has the wrist lower than the elbow.
[i]- Biu Sau spears into attacks to “expand space” using the knife-edge of the arm. Your wrist also ends up above the bridgepoint. Biu Sau is used to destroy (more “chum” in nature) the attacker’s center of gravity by use of forward energy or sideways energy.
- Bong Sau is used to deflect/bump space and “close off space”, initially using the top side of the forearm - and if necessary rotating contact to the knife-edge. Your wrist will end up at or underneath the bridgepoint. Bong Sau is used to steer (Hoi Sung) by lifting or sinking the incoming force across the body to gain the flank of the attacker.[/i]
Parallel engagement…right with left or left with right…
I think bridging with Go Bong Sau against a hooked punch is the wrong time and space. If your intent is to bridge underneath the punch, consider whether or not you have even challenged the energy of the punch. Could you have kept it outside your space? Was it a fake or a knock-out type punch? How would you know? Will an immediate steering of the punch tell you the energy type? Or would a structure more closely resembling a Jong Sau tell you more?
If you are using the Go Bong Sau to bring the punch downwards…(don’t know?) I’d like to read why and how that is possible considering the scenario.
If your Bong Sau is being used head-on into the punch, knife-edge to knife-edge… is it really a Bong Sau anymore?
It is a waste of time to operate in the same plane in space as the attack itself (sideways with sideways). Even to uplift the hook punch with Bong Sau (which in any case, a Kwan Sau seems more logical if one would go this route) causes a loss in Deui Ying; proper facing. You have to brace in order to clear your space.
Either that, or you are crossing your own center with the Go Bong Sau. And forget about cross-arm bridge with these two techniques, cuz I don’t see how that is remotely logical. But hey, it may happen…
Originally posted by stuartm
[B]Hi Savi,
The biu against a hook comes from the dummy before you go into po pai section. The biu starts from a wu sau and projects out at 45 degree with biu shape being quite rounded.
The last time my Sifu, Master SamKwok did a seminar for me, we tested this in detail with my srudent Mark ( 6ft 2 , 16 stone, ex-boxer) throwing full tight hooks and jabs at Sifu kwok - the biu worked every time.
Tan is pretty worthless in this situation.
Regards, Stu [/B]
I am not familiar with the sequence you have been taught in the MYJ (in the version I was taught, Biu Sau is done in section 8, whereas Po Pai section 5…oh well :)), but your explanation of the Biu seems definitely appropriate in order to address the upper gate against the attack. Just how I see it…
The question of facing… it’s hard to put into words. when shifting the line do not put your Siu Nim Tao Centerline/ mother-line past the opponent’s shoulder, this now allows an attack down your 45 degree centerline / chum kiu line. So the tan sau is now facing the point of contact but the counter attack as in Tan Dar shoots down the 45 degree to the opponent, this works because of the weight shift to sidling stance, when weight is shifted to the back leg my center is now down that back leg at the 45 degree, it’s all in Chum Kiu.
when to use go bong sau? one example because i am not a fan of defining techniques and when to use them… opponent’s punch comes out, i don’t know what is coming i just see or feel his shoulder move. I throw out a man sau or a punch with man sau energy/intent when it makes contact with the attacker’s arm i will only then know what to throw out, maybe a tan sau. if the arm hooks around then my body will follow with a small shift and if the punch still slides around my elbow will rotate up sticking to the inside if the attacker’s elbow into a go bong sau. maybe with shoulder control so that they cannot generate another punch with that hand. If the punch goes through my structure then as an emergency i may have to let the hook come over the go bong sau and even over the head (mostly when the attacker is taller) while you attack under his arm to the floating ribs, kidney or whatever you end up on the outside gate…
ok maybe none of that made sense, it’s not easy to put into words.
So Savi what is go bong sau and dai bong sau or even the man sau which belongs to Bong Sau? Are they a shape an energy or a structure? It’s easy to try and define but the variables are so different.
I’m glad that you know your kung fu and can defend your point but i think as you get deeper in the system, same goes for me, you’ll understand what I am saying better.
Savi-- “BTW, your comment/assumption about my Sigung are unfounded and far from the truth.” Uncle Benny can do what he wants, it wasn’t an insult, I’m glad to see him teaching advanced Moy Yat Kung Fu and Sigung’s details even if he does mix it with HFY, more power to him and it’s good to see the kung fu coming out. You wanna talk about the truth, some of were there when the Chops were taken back, some of us saw the letter from Sigung. Out of politeness it’s not really brought up. I really don’t wanna stir things up so this will be my last post on this subject, you or anyone can talk to me in private by phone or email or in person. I am readily available and enjoy the discussion.
Phenix-- rabbit punches can’t really generate force if their body is not behind it, the math doesn’t work. sorry, i’ll trade a slap in the back head for multiple shots to the face, it’s their risk not mine, this is even more so when applying forward pressure from the horse and stepping to center (tsui ma). If you mean that someone who walks up behind me and hits me in the head can hurt me well, yeah.
train the “wrong” techniques and you will be ready for anything, that is the nature of kung fu, train
technique A against attack B, then you are doing karate, not that, that is a bad thing… just a difference in training method. Besides, what is the “wrong” technique?
Personally I’d rather be ready for anything and make make my weakest points be my strongest.
Meaning that I’ll train Chi Sau w/ poor positions and no centerline so that I can work on my defense and getting my hand back to center, I train my Chi Sau leaning forward or leaning backwards, I train w/o my horse engaged. When training My Sang Jeang (full contact long distance) Chi Sau I’ll leave my hands down…
Why? Because that is how you train realistically, if i said “I’d rather not waste my time.” and just trained “perfect” kung fu then i could have the best chi sau in class but i couldn’t do much outside of that. But that is just my opinion and i have been wrong before.
Any questions please feel free to email me and then maybe i can explain what i am talking about better than i am now. or IM aol.
You have no Idea!
Uncle Benny can do what he wants, it wasn’t an insult, I’m glad to see him teaching advanced Moy Yat Kung Fu and Sigung’s details even if he does mix it with HFY, more power to him and it’s good to see the kung fu coming out.
You really shouldn’t speak on what you do not know. HFY and Moy Yat systems cannot “mix”. You are not qualified to make such a statement. You are doing both systems a dis-service by your statments. Of course you only have one piece of the puzzle in front of you (the Moy Yat system) I personally know that the Moy Yat system is a great system in it’s vast depth of knowlege. The signature teaching method of GM Moy Yat of “Kung fu life” really drives each concept of the Moy yat system home. so I’ll give you the benifit of the doubt. From your I assume you have a credible knowlege of the Moy Yat system. However from your statememt you lack an understanding of the logic flow found at the core of Hung Fa Yi . As Savi and myself have finished the Moy Yat system forms, Jong, Pole etc… both having personal experiences with the late Grand Master himself. We are current members of the Hung Fa Yi family and have a working grasp of Hung Fa Yi and it’s function. I will say it for the last time these systems do not mix.
You wanna talk about the truth, some of were there when the Chops were taken back, some of us saw the letter from Sigung. Out of politeness it’s not really brought up. I really don’t wanna stir things up so this will be my last post on this subject, you or anyone can talk to me in private by phone or email or in person. I am readily available and enjoy the discussion.
More things you are not qualified to talk about. As a third party I’m glad you are being polite and not bringing this up!LOL! uuhhemm… Houston we have a problem… LOL! I don’t see any point in any of us contacting you on this subject it seems you have your mind already made up for you. Third party to third party the limitations of that conversation has aready been set. If you are interested in productive conversation (kung fu related) I will be the first to e-mail or call you or see you in person. I value my time and I see no point in going back and fourth about these issues. Life’s to short to be bothered with gossip and the “my style is better then yours” act. I have never in my years ever seen anyone covert or move to a different lineage under those conditions. As a matter of fact it does not look good for either side of what ever issue it may be. But of course it hasn’t stopped others in the past. So I will look for your next post.