stuartm,
I agree that the Biu can be used and is very effective against a hook. I wanted to also address the issue with what alot of people qualify as a hook. I come from a family that has quite a few boxers in it. I must agree a close, tight hook with the body behind it is a very different hook then those that I have seen. That being said the use of tan sao must have the positon and foowork behind it or simply isn’t going to be there. It seems that if used a recovery must follow and the energy would have to clash. So I personally think you give something up when using a Tan in this manner. The question is a interesting one in my opinion.
FWIW, against a close tight hook (like a scraping hook from the clench) tan sao and biu sao probably won’t work. More than likely you should duck or side step or just plain get out of the way. That is ofcourse assuming that you actually saw the hook coming.
Wing chun has a hook punch in it as well. Many systems will use a hook punch when in tight, and it is effective. When in the clench or even trapping range a hook can swing around obstructing limbs and still hit the side or back of its target. This is not only limited to the boxer’s hook. Look at the giant hook-like motions white crane kung fu and Choy Lay Fut use. A tan sao nor a biu sao would work against one of those strikes. The idea behind them are that their arms are chains and their fists are rocks or iron balls. What does a chain do when it hits a pole? It wraps around the pole and still does damage to it. The same idea is behind these strikes and can be used with a hook punch as well. It uses the same theory that the ball and chain (morning star) uses against opponets with shields. They can also be chum techniques, or crashing techniques. CLF is known for its crashing bridges technique, and its effective to use against wing chun itself.
That being said there are many answers for a hook. However, I must give credit to the hook when used properly. A lot of times when in close range you can’t see a hook coming until its too late. You could indeed to a tan + bon sao or a qwan sao against a hook. However, if you are not set perfectly structure wise, or do not have the physical strength to use force against it, it will hurt you either way. I tried many wing chun techniques against hooks while sparring. I found foot work and positioning to be the best answer. Constantly move and when an attack comes in that you can see step to the weak side and attack. That is just my experience though, so results may vary…
Oh also btw I do see your logic behind this statement:
train the “wrong” techniques and you will be ready for anything, that is the nature of kung fu, train
technique A against attack B, then you are doing karate, not that, that is a bad thing… just a difference in training method. Besides, what is the “wrong” technique?
I also agree with you to some extend in a certain point of view. However, I believe you are in the wrong mindset of this idea. It is good and very constructive to go out and spar other martial artists, boxers, etc. This will give you a dymanic which you can compare your training and techniques to. You may have to adpat your wing chun here and there to compensate for fighting different people, situations, and circumstances. However, it is IMHO that training the wrong thing is nothing but counter-productive to your training. We can also agree to disagree on this as well.
Originally posted by Savi I am not familiar with the sequence you have been taught in the MYJ (in the version I was taught, Biu Sau is done in section 8, whereas Po Pai section 5…oh well :)), but your explanation of the Biu seems definitely appropriate in order to address the upper gate against the attack. Just how I see it…
Hi Savi,
In our Mook Yan Jong ( I assume you too are training the Yip Man Line) the sections starts with jut, then an outward biu on the dummys right arm followed by huen on the left and dai jeung, then the po pai section starts with kwun, straighten up and po pai etc etc
Anyway, I agree that tere will be occasions where the biu will not work, but imho, biu is more appropriate than tan any day of the week. A boxer is clever, and will be lining you up for the hook by moving around your centre. They also have good footowrk and so to say just shift with the tan is not a sufficient answer.
We also train to move into the hook by using biu ma, cover the head and the hook with a high pak sau, with a straight punch underneath the pak. This can work really well and can also be trained by just using Juen ma.
Sorry guys, Im just not a fan of tan sau in this situation.
But we are talking hand technique when we need to talk about fundamental Wing Chun v. Any kind of energy. In this case hooking.
What is the best way to.
Intercept the attack
Attack the attackers structure
move toward a more favorable position
Then really play with it…
Is the boxer throwing one hook or three,
Is it at the beginning of a combination or at the end
Did he step in and hook or is his hook a response to a bridge or attack I tried to create.
on and on and on…
This technique or that is a tired subject, the real meat is in the function. Does it matter if we use Go Bong or Biu or Tan?
Or does it matter what we accomplish and what are options are at the end of that initial action.
I practice a modified Fuk because the forearm shape provides a wedge that can absorb and deflect the attack, at the same time I use a palm or punch with my opposite hand.
With an eye to the above, I train stepping in and breaking the plane of the opponent’s body while using equal pressure with bridge arm and striking arm to drive the opponent back.
Finally, I see the hook as causing a slight change in my opponent’s center of gravity so instead of attacking his centerline directly I treat the center of rotation as the new center and attack that with my structure.
So many opinions and so many differences! The funny thing about this thread as i read through it is every one is talking there own talk. Some times a biu is good, and some times a tan is good. From my experience of the MYS the taun is used with footwork and not stationary, but are you ever going to get caught in front of a boxer at such a range were they can use a close body hook? If yes, then you should of kicked that knee because you just let them in your space. If someone put together the info given in stead of rejecting, one could build some decent KF. Peace out!:rolleyes:
That is how fighting is. Its never the same so you can never have the exact same answer to a fight. Biu and Tan work well in certain situations. Against a good hook whether it be boxing, Muay Thai, White crane, CLF, etc is not going to really work.
You mentioned footwork, and I totally agree that foot work and positioning are very important in a fight. Wing chun is a trapping art and its practitioners usually like to be in close range to ideally put the system to work. This will make you vulnerable to close range attacks, including hooks. A lot of times you will not see the hook coming, or have time to do a biu sao which could take too much time to execute. Boxing techniques work well against boxers. Bobbing weaving, ducking, side stepping, etc. You could also redirect the hook punch with a pak sao I suppose.
but are you ever going to get caught in front of a boxer at such a range were they can use a close body hook? If yes, then you should of kicked that knee because you just let them in your space.
What if your kick is ineffective, or your opponet is keen to it and rolls it off their leg like it was just a mesquito bite? Since wing chun is a trapping art a lot of times you will find your opponet in close, or in your space as you put it. That is one of the major concepts of WC, to keep in close to your opponet to stick to them. Make them feel uncomfortable where you feel most comfortable. So there will never be a definate answer and a good answer will never always work. Sometimes you will take that hook right in your grill, just hope it doesn’t hurt or knock you out. Or you could train taking hits so when you get hit at least you know what to expect.
U going to stand nose to nose with a boxer. You’ll probable take a flanking position.
Wing chun is a trapping art and its practitioners usually like to be in close range to ideally put the system to work.
Yes, I do study wing chun. If you are standing that close you should already being control or have an advantages position, yes?
What if your kick is ineffective, or your opponent is keen to it and rolls it off their leg like it was just a mosquito bite?
Dude, Its a boxer. if it has no affect then your training sucks, because the knee will be there, unless of course you use sloppy tecs. Note; you is not directly pointing to you, you know, finger at moon and all! Any ways, it sounds as if your mind is open to a lot! Good luck to you, seriously!
Last call!!!
I was making a point that against any kind of fighter, like a street fighter or whatever your knee kick will not always work, reguardless of your training. I don’t care if you are bruce lee, it will not always work.
Look at a professional boxer versus your professional martial artist. I bet you can’t always control where you are. I also think that the martial artist would have a hard time controlling the boxer while standing up.
Yes, I do study wing chun. If you are standing that close you should already being control or have an advantages position, yes?
The key word here is should. Ever try to control a good boxer? Its hard, especially if they are keen to trapping. They will mad dog you and bum rush you once you think you have them trapped.
Dude, Its a boxer. if it has no affect then your training sucks, because the knee will be there, unless of course you use sloppy tecs. Note; you is not directly pointing to you, you know, finger at moon and all! Any ways, it sounds as if your mind is open to a lot! Good luck to you, seriously!
Last call!!!
Again not always true. You can train to roll attacks off your body as a last ditch effort. Sometimes its called glass body techniques. So, no a knee kick or groin shot will never be an absolute as you are making it sound to be. If that is not your intention, then its how you sound on the forum. Though it is hard to sometimes comprehend what someone is exactly saying online. So this is no personal attack towards you, just clarifying a few points. I know people that a knee kick would not really affect them, becuase they know how to move their body against it.
The thing is you are already in that range. Boxers use live and fast foot work you will be flanked before you know it if you are not on guard. So, since you are already in trapping range and boxers move quickly, you could be nose to nose in a split second.
O.K. I see you, but I don’t think you see through my eyes. I understand your semantics. If one lives in techniques then one is always having to react with defense or constantly moving with lucky strikes like a boxer. " if it doesn’t get in thats o.k. I’ll just through another one, two, three…I’ll go here and do this or that with this and then… Whatever!
Looking at any engagement, if the time says kick you kick not ask should I or what if. I have seen some stuff that I thought was unreal and found that it has the same answer every time. You telling me that I cant brake/tear/pop/dislocate that knee! Talk about taking to many hits to the dome! …This is pointless to describe, due to difference in opinions.
Dude lets start a web site that has video feed that can be posted along with ones post!Any takers???
“Well my KF’s not that good so I don’t think I will.” That s o.k. to, its all about the learning, right? Not you GF some other dude.
Any how, later!
i agree that tan sao can be used against hooks, and by the way, grados is very good, he can throw down.i have never trained with him, but know people who have.i disagree that he now calls himself the top wc fighter on the east coast, but yhe is good.
as far as the tan, it really wouldnt work against a tight boxing hook because its too tight, but neither would a biu gee, when we are close enough for a boxer to use a hook we should already be headbutting,etc moving him back. ata short range we can use a tan vs hook if we use foootwork, kinda like a recieving energy like aikido,a matter of fact is that a tan and headgrab to throw has worked for me with this energy. as far as a stright tan without the footwork vs a close range hook, it wouldnt work. in reality we should be the strike to his face before his hook can get use(centerline principle) but theres a difference between a boxers hook, and a close range hook. i doubt you will fight many boxers on the street, usually a street hook is close, but not real tight. the kuen kut says to face the silhouette, so you must frace the hook to block it, hence you need shifting and footwok.but remember that we use our tools vs a boxer, use knees head, elbows, etc, dont box him.in my opinion the highest level is interrupted timing, beat him to the shot, take the line away with your own offense,this is hard, but what i strive for in training,emin boztepe like him or not, has this skill down very well, as do many others, but i have seen emin use this.
I got a question about Moy Yat Ving Tsun. I have seen pictures and videos of Moy Yat practitioners doing chi sao, and they are leaning into each other and drilling into each other pretty strong. The leaning is very forward.
Why is it practiced that way?
This is just an honest question, I am curious why its practiced that way.
Originally posted by Gangsterfist
[B]I got a question about Moy Yat Ving Tsun. I have seen pictures and videos of Moy Yat practitioners doing chi sao, and they are leaning into each other and drilling into each other pretty strong. The leaning is very forward.
Why is it practiced that way?
This is just an honest question, I am curious why its practiced that way. [/B]
Though I have not seen the photos/videos you have seen, Chi Sau has not been taught that way to me or my sihingdai (leaning forward), who have trained in MYVTK… we always keep the back straight and learn to use forward energy through elbows/hips/horse relationships within Luk Sau (developing properly balanced forward energy in the hands) and Tsui Ma (pushing/pulling horse) training.
By keeping the back straight, should the bridge give way, we would not fall forward but maintain our center instead.
Why you make fun of Keng Geng when he try to point out something important? Maybe he not pay his $3000 I dont know but he do Moy Yat wing chun for a very long time. Longer than you I think.
You should be asking what weakness in Moy Yat wing chun did he find to become so bitter about it.
Originally posted by horserider You should be asking what weakness in Moy Yat wing chun did he find to become so bitter about it.
It doesn’t seem that asking that question would solve anything.
Different strokes for different folks. My Sisukgung Tom seems quite happy with the Kung Fu he has and is getting from the Moy Yat lineage. I am very pleased with mine. Parlati Sifu was inspired to look elsewhere after a while, and so was (apparently) Gangsterfist.
If I like Ham and someone else likes Bologna, so what? Let each person decide for themselves. I think the issue is when there are relentless instigations and attacks that serve no useful purpose than to incite bickering.
And FWIW, I concur wholeheartedly with my Sidai Savi. I was never taught to lean out of my root when doing ANYTHING. Even the Saam Bai Faat in Biu Ji is done controlled and mindfully.
I was wrong. I watched the clips again and they are actually mislabled. I downloaded them off some random website probably years ago. They are actually Leung Ting lineage people, but for some reason the file is labled Moy Yat.
That is why I was confused, mainly because I have been exposed to some sonny tang stuff. My first sifu studied w/ one of sunny tangs students for several years. I have no idea how much Sunny Tang changed from Moy Yat, if any.
Sorry for any confusion that may have cause, I mysefl was confused as well.
Also, I have never formally trained any lineage outside my own. I have been exposed to some different lineages, and have been shown some differences, but never studied under a different sifu.
