[…] good WCK involves using our whole body ‘the WCK way.’ And the basis for that is YJKYM which teaches us certain, specific body mechanics that permits, among other things, the instant generation of a whole-body, stationary power that can be exerted in any direction and that doesn’t depend on, and is in fact inhibited by, muscular exertion. TN
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But usually when we practice stationary punching drills (3-arrow, chain punching) we do so from the square stance, not YGKYM. In the wing chun I was taught. Your lineage may do differently.
If you’re talking about the heavy bag, I find it useless w/r/t WCK punching. I’m not very good nor that big (average height/build) but when I hit the heavy bag it flies horizontal to the ground (so I can never get a second punch, unless I want to keep it in the air) – and I’m not unique (I’ve seen more than a few others do the same). WCK uses a wall bag for a reason. TN
My understanding is that if you hit the bag correctly and tranfer the energy into the bag, it will fold, not fly upward. Usually when it moves more than a few inches, it means your mechanics are wrong and you are pushing. You ever see the tape of Foreman hitting the heavy bag before the Rumble in the Jungle fight? There was pratically a hole in the bag but it wasn’t moving much. Also, usually when someone talks about making the bag fly up it is with a sidekick or other kick, and it is due to a push which follows the main impact. Unless your bag is made of some kind of rubbery material it will not bounce off enough to send it horizontal by any means.
Originally posted by t_niehoff
IMO “torque” or shifting is not WCK’s fundamental power (there is no torque in YJKYM; and doesn’t it make sense that the first form would contain the fundamental means of power generation of WCK?). We must first develop stationary power because WCK specializes in in-fighting; when you are very close (where we want to be, and not with an outstretched arm like we see all the time) and in contact, you can’t often step and if you attempt to torque/shift you are giving your opponent an opening to “escort” your center (of gravity). TN
while “torque” isn’t WCK’s fundamental power, the fundamental power drives the torque. i think a big part of YGKYM is what’s done with the hips. you keep them forward. when you’re in a side stance, or a straight stance and the hips are back, pressing them forward into YGKYM can move the entire body forward, which generates a lot of power - especially because the motion is so small and can be done extremely quickly, if SLT is practiced well.
for torquing, one hip goes forward, the other goes back. the pressing of the legs together makes the motion almost like a snap of the fingers. when the strike hits, the structure goes through the leg with the hip forward. this is where it should go because a leg in the YGKYM can recieve as much energy as your bones can handle before breaking.
as to shifting giving your opponent the center, i think this statement is far off. a shift moves the centerline such that your opponent is no longer inside it, so now you own the center.
while “torque” isn’t WCK’s fundamental power, the fundamental power drives the torque. TjD
That’s true. I think that was my point. TN
as to shifting giving your opponent the center, i think this statement is far off. a shift moves the centerline such that your opponent is no longer inside it, so now you own the center. TjD
Anytime we move our body (center/weight), an opponent (if there is contact) can “escort” that movement and control our center – and if he controls our center, he controls the centerline regardless of position. TN
fa_jing writes:
My understanding is that if you hit the bag correctly and tranfer the energy into the bag, it will fold, not fly upward. Usually when it moves more than a few inches, it means your mechanics are wrong and you are pushing. F
Hit the bag with a truck and see if it doesn’t fly upwards. (It goes upward since the chain stops it from flying away when hit with force).The chinese had bags; other TCMAs use them. There is a reason our ancestors in WCK didn’t use them and chose the wallbag instead. BTW, I agree with you that we punch, not push. TN
Hi Terence. Are you saying that Wing Chun punching is more powerful than other TCMA styles? I don’t currently think so. I give it high marks for enabling you to throw a powerful and functional punch that actually lands and is effective in the context of the fight, but as far as stepping up to a bag and hitting it I don’t see why WCK would have any advantage over Taiji, Xing Yi, or most other martial arts. I’m sure your point about the wallbag is valid, however - that it is specifically tailored to the type of power that one should develop in WCK.
Anytime we move our body (center/weight), an opponent (if there is contact) can “escort” that movement and control our center – and if he controls our center, he controls the centerline regardless of position. TN
Hi Terence,
I agree with your statement above. My questions are:
If your opponent controls the mutual centerline, do you shift/move your body (center/weight), and create another mutual centerline?
If you opt to shift/move your body (center/weight), how can you prevent your opponent from “escorting” your movement?
I’m looking forward to your answer. I’ve been following this thread, and so far, the discussion has been very informative.
My understanding is that if you hit the bag correctly and tranfer the energy into the bag, it will fold, not fly upward. Usually when it moves more than a few inches, it means your mechanics are wrong and you are pushing. You ever see the tape of Foreman hitting the heavy bag before the Rumble in the Jungle fight? There was pratically a hole in the bag but it wasn’t moving much. Also, usually when someone talks about making the bag fly up it is with a sidekick or other kick, and it is due to a push which follows the main impact. Unless your bag is made of some kind of rubbery material it will not bounce off enough to send it horizontal by any means. [/B]
Yes, that is correct. If you run up to the bag and push it, it will fly off. Hence if the same is happening with your punches, then something is wrong with your punching action. The punch should have penetrating power that targets the small area of impact and bores into it. The reason Wing Chun did not traditionally use a boxing bag is becasue they did not exist in mainland China in the same form. But if you read accounts of Wing Chun practitioners on the wallbag, often after many months of practice there would be holes in the wall behind the wallbag, again due to penetrating power that goes through the target.
all about power hitting the bag is great. however, what happen when i am 80 year old or when i am sick. how to generate power? P
IMO, if our power comes from muscular exertion or waist twisting it will natuarally decline with age; if we use WCK mechanics, age will not matter IMO (as our ancestors have demonstrated). One of the problems is that since muscular power is so prevalent in WCK (because it is easy, among other things), folks think our power and our punch is the same as boxings or karate (that they should have the same effect, for instance). The WCK punch is different in kind, IMHO, than boxings or karates or whatever art; the power is different; the effect is different, etc. TN
Hi Wingman,
Wingman writes:
My questions:
If your opponent controls the mutual centerline, do you shift/move your body (center/weight), and create another mutual centerline? W
The trouble with answering your questions is that everything depends upon the conditions (range, are we linked or merely in contact, what my opponent is doing, etc.). Typically I follow the kuen kuet: lui lao hoi soong lut sao jik chung (stay as he comes, escort as he goes, rush in on loss of contact) – which recognizes that any movement creates opportunites for an opponent. Thus, small movement is better than big movement, and no movement better than slight movement (WCK “uses stillness to overcome movement”). So if conditions allow, I would break the centerline (there are many methods for this) to regain control as my first option. If that wasn’t possible, I would change the line as you mention, but with the smallest movement possible (maybe one degree) movement to create the smallest opportunity. BTW, I change the line not by turning myself but by turning the opponent. Once in contact, I turn only to break the opponent’s body structure. Make sense? TN
If you opt to shift/move your body (center/weight), how can you prevent your opponent from “escorting” your movement?
Again, if the conditions don’t allow me to shift (for example we’re close and our centers are linked) I can’t shift without creating that opportunity; but I can minimize it. However, this assumes that your opponent has sensitivity and skill (that may not be the case), and if he doesn’t you’ll be able to get away with it. Our application depends on judgment. TN
BTW, I change the line not by turning myself but by turning the opponent.
Great idea! Why haven’t I thought of that before?
Generally, I agree with your answers. This is also what I had in mind when I posted on this thread WC gives up their center? . Thank you for giving such a detailed answer.
BTW, I change the line not by turning myself but by turning the opponent.
I do both, as the situation dictates. If I can get control and break my opponent’s structure, it’s easy to turn them (among other things). If I’m not able to get that control but still need to change the line, I’ll turn myself, and use the (hopefully) more advantageous position to gain control, break the structure, etc.
BTW - I was report on Rorion Gracie’s inaugural IGJJF tournament. There’s a debate as to whether or not tournaments should allow slamming from the guard (picking the guy up who’s in guard, lifting him, and slamming him back down). Most ban the slam as it has led to injuries in the past (back/neck). Judo goes half-way by saying if you lift the opponent it shows you could slam, so they break you up and restart you standing. IGJJF allows it since they maintain its important to know how to break down an opponent’s posture (structure) so that they cannot slam you, before you put yourself in a position to get slammed (and they’ll let you learn this the hard way). This resonated in a WCK sense to me, since often I think, people will go for the touch (the hit they lust after), even if its speed or trick based, and not bother to properly control and break an opponent first. Sorry, droning on, just food for thought…
BTW, I change the line not by turning myself but by turning the opponent. TN
RR writes:
I do both, as the situation dictates. If I can get control and break my opponent’s structure, it’s easy to turn them (among other things). If I’m not able to get that control but still need to change the line, I’ll turn myself, and use the (hopefully) more advantageous position to gain control, break the structure, etc. RR
I was stating my ideal. As I said, it all depends on the moment (conditions); sometimes we can get away with shifting (ourselves) especially if we miminize our movement, haven’t linked centers, etc. Everything has strengths and weaknesses – the rub is recognizing those conditions where we can maximize its strengths and minimize its weaknesses. TN
This resonated in a WCK sense to me, since often I think, people will go for the touch (the hit they lust after), even if its speed or trick based, and not bother to properly control and break an opponent first. Sorry, droning on, just food for thought… RR
That’s because many folks in WCK use a “kickboxing” mindset (hit the other guy and try not to get hit) and have no idea of the WCK mindset (join, control, finish). TN
wingman writes:
Great idea! Why haven’t I thought of that before? W
LOL! Sorry, I was making no assumption about you personally . . . it’s just that so many just think of turning themselves rather than the opponent. Similarly, I don’t for the most part use turning as a “dodge” or “evasion”, and instead shift into an opponent rather than away from an opponent. TN
TN
TN