And what I said on the first post of this thread is how I’m going about making my wing chun mma functional. It’s not theory, it’s exactly what I’ve been working on with my students for a good 7-8 years now, step-by-step. The fact that the small group I have at the moment hasn’t yet resulted in one of them entering an mma event doesn’t change anything.
It still is what it is.
And when I said that I believe this kind of road for wing chun will happen, I’m not just talking about myself. If you’ve been reading the Rick Spain thread, you can easily come away with some very similar conclusions, ie.- what I posted is very similar to what he’s been working on, it would seem.
And knowing Keith Mazza as well as I do, those guys coming out of his school (and don’t forget that Phil Redmond has been teaching at Keith’s school for the last 4-5 years or so - with a NYC class being something he just started within the last year or so)…
I believe those guys within Keith and Phil’s domain are heading down a path that will ultimately lead to something very similar to what I mentioned on that post as well.
I see it coming. They might perhaps disagree with me at the moment, but I see it coming.
And it’s not necessarily only TWC people who might travel such a road either, imo.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1012376]And what I said on the first post of this thread is how I’m going about making my wing chun mma functional. It’s not theory, it’s exactly what I’ve been working on with my students for a good 7-8 years now, step-by-step. The fact that the small group I have at the moment hasn’t yet resulted in one of them entering an mma event doesn’t change anything.
It still is what it is.
And when I said that I believe this kind of road for wing chun will happen, I’m not just talking about myself. If you’ve been reading the Rick Spain thread, you can easily come away with some very similar conclusions, ie.- what I posted is very similar to what he’s been working on, it would seem.
And knowing Keith Mazza as well as I do, those guys coming out of his school (and don’t forget that Phil Redmond has been teaching at Keith’s school for the last 4-5 years or so - with a NYC class being something he just started within the last year or so)…
I believe those guys within Keith and Phil’s domain are heading down a path that will ultimately lead to something very similar to what I mentioned on that post as well.
I see it coming. They might perhaps disagree with me at the moment, but I see it coming.
And it’s not necessarily only TWC people who might travel such a road either, imo.[/QUOTE]
you have been working on it for a good 8 years and you still can’t get it to a point where 1 student… just 1… is good enough to enter a local amature event…if i was you i would seriously consider changing the way you teach and your overall approach you must be doing something seriously wrong
From my perspective. The reason you see more karate, BJJ, Kick Boxers, sambo in MMA over Wing Chun is that there is sporting events for these styles where people want to compete and the natural thing to do is up the challenge and go into MMA to make more money.
Honestly, the only thing that Wing Chun will bring to MMA is blocking.
Do we really need to prove ourselves to the MA community and compete in MMA??? Are we really that insecure about our techniques and ability to fight???
[QUOTE=Frost;1012402]you have been working on it for a good 8 years and you still can’t get it to a point where 1 student… just 1… is good enough to enter a local amature event…if i was you i would seriously consider changing the way you teach and your overall approach you must be doing something seriously wrong[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Niersun;1012409]How is this comment constructive?[/QUOTE]
Well criticism can be constructive…I think we should all look at our training from time to time don’t you?
what I am saying that if he has been following a certain path for 8 years and training what he calls an MMA way and yet not one of his students is ready to compete at any level then maybe he should stop telling people what the future of MMA will look like and how wing chun will fit in with it and look at his own training system
[QUOTE=Frost;1012402]you have been working on it for a good 8 years and you still can’t get it to a point where 1 student… just 1… is good enough to enter a local amature event…if i was you i would seriously consider changing the way you teach and your overall approach you must be doing something seriously wrong[/QUOTE]
Some of it has to do with being able to get good athletes. A lot of the good athletes want to fight. Assuming that his training principles are otherwise sound, he probably should try a different recruitment strategy. Give out some scholarships to some athletic poor kids or something.
When I came into WC, my whole deal was that I fully intended to, “stomp some a$$,” because I had a serious need to defend myself. I don’t know that people get into it for the same reasons anymore.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1012418]Some of it has to do with being able to get good athletes. A lot of the good athletes want to fight. Assuming that his training principles are otherwise sound, he probably should try a different recruitment strategy. Give out some scholarships to some athletic poor kids or something.
When I came into WC, my whole deal was that I fully intended to, “stomp some a$$,” because I had a serious need to defend myself. I don’t know that people get into it for the same reasons anymore.[/QUOTE]
some of it is down to the students, but if they have been with him for years during the MMA evolution he is going through why did they stay if they were not interested in MMA?
don’t you think its a bit odd that he has been taking an MMA approach to training for 8 years with his students, doing wing chun boxing grappling etc and he is telling people this is the way of the future and how boxing can help wing chun against a good fighter, how catch is a great MMA grappling style and how wing chun will be the future of MMA but he has yet to field 1 fighter in MMA, kickboxing, boxing a smoker or any other format?
[QUOTE=Niersun;1012407]Do we really need to prove ourselves to the MA community and compete in MMA??? Are we really that insecure about our techniques and ability to fight???[/QUOTE]
i think largely yes thats why there is more talk about mma in this sub forum than there is in the mma sub forum lol
[QUOTE=Frost;1012420]some of it is down to the students, but if they have been with him for years during the MMA evolution he is going through why did they stay if they were not interested in MMA?
don’t you think its a bit odd that he has been taking an MMA approach to training for 8 years with his students, doing wing chun boxing grappling etc and he is telling people this is the way of the future and how boxing can help wing chun against a good fighter, how catch is a great MMA grappling style and how wing chun will be the future of MMA but he has yet to field 1 fighter in MMA, kickboxing, boxing a smoker or any other format?[/QUOTE]
That’s a good question. My whole thing is this. If a person does not compete (and make a decent showing) in something full-contact, they cannot become an instructor. If they want to do some points, forms, this that and the other, that’s all fine for the lower ranks, but you just can’t promote people who can’t do that. It’s the lack of this simple requirement that is the source of endless debate on this forum. If people want to LARP, theorize, and study culture, GREAT! But, my position has been and always will be that WC is a fighting art.
Think about this… If fighting at least one smoker and making a decent showing were a requirement, how many WCers, masters and grandmasters included, would be certified?
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1012425]That’s a good question. My whole thing is this. If a person does not compete (and make a decent showing) in something full-contact, they cannot become an instructor. If they want to do some points, forms, this that and the other, that’s all fine for the lower ranks, but you just can’t promote people who can’t do that. It’s the lack of this simple requirement that is the source of endless debate on this forum. If people want to LARP, theorize, and study culture, GREAT! But, my position has been and always will be that WC is a fighting art.[/QUOTE]
What is the standard in Judo for becoming an instructor level? How about BJJ?
I think a standard like that would be great, in fact I think a similar standard to what Judo does would also be great for all promotions. But how do you get any standards going?
I suppose one school could adopt this kind of standard and then it might proliferate…and become a new standard..
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1012425]That’s a good question. My whole thing is this. If a person does not compete (and make a decent showing) in something full-contact, they cannot become an instructor. If they want to do some points, forms, this that and the other, that’s all fine for the lower ranks, but you just can’t promote people who can’t do that. It’s the lack of this simple requirement that is the source of endless debate on this forum. If people want to LARP, theorize, and study culture, GREAT! But, my position has been and always will be that WC is a fighting art.
Think about this… If fighting at least one smoker and making a decent showing were a requirement, how many WCers, masters and grandmasters included, would be certified?[/QUOTE]
lol now you have done it all the “we fight on the street not the ring” guys will be after you and not dale or terrance:)
you raise a good point, my view is a bit different maybe you can become a good teacher and trainer of fighters without having fought that much (i said maybe!) but unless youare turning out fighters, boxers or grapplers you really should not be talking about what does and does not work in those enviroments and what will or will not be the next big thing in those sports
[QUOTE=YungChun;1012428]What is the standard in Judo for becoming an instructor level? How about BJJ?
I think a standard like that would be great, in fact I think a similar standard to what Judo does would also be great for all promotions. But how do you get any standards going?
I suppose one school could adopt this kind of standard and then it might proliferate…and become a new standard..[/QUOTE]
Anyone can teach BJJ and I think judo as well, but guys will not choose to train at a gym that does not compete or does not belong to a recognised body… or if it does compete they always ends up losing.
You first need a competition format people can enter before you standardize anything, when schools compete in any event it’s easy to see why are the good coaches and who are the bad ones…without such a competition it’s too easy for bad instructors to set up shop
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1012431]My judo buddy makes his students go to a tournament before each rank. I don’t know if that is a judo association requirement or not.[/QUOTE]
two ways to get promoted in judo I believe, you have to either have a certain number of tournaments under your belt, or have been in the art for a certain amount of time, but the first way is the usual way people get promoted, and as I said since judo has a nationally recognised format for competing it’s easy for people to see who are the good coaches
[QUOTE=Frost;1012435]lol now you have done it all the “we fight on the street not the ring” guys will be after you and not dale or terrance:)
[/QUOTE]
LOL…
[QUOTE=Frost;1012435]
you raise a good point, my view is a bit different maybe you can become a good teacher and trainer of fighters without having fought that much (i said maybe!) but unless youare turning out fighters, boxers or grapplers you really should not be talking about what does and does not work in those enviroments and what will or will not be the next big thing in those sports[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Frost;1012435]lol now you have done it all the “we fight on the street not the ring” guys will be after you and not dale or terrance:)
[/QUOTE]
LOL…
[QUOTE=Frost;1012435]
you raise a good point, my view is a bit different maybe you can become a good teacher and trainer of fighters without having fought that much (i said maybe!) but unless youare turning out fighters, boxers or grapplers you really should not be talking about what does and does not work in those enviroments and what will or will not be the next big thing in those sports[/QUOTE]
I am open to that rare possibility that someone could not fight at all and be a great trainer. I also understand that someone who is a great trainer might have been limited to low-level events due to a myriad of reasons, injury, athleticism, and chin to name a few.
[QUOTE=Frost;1012435] but unless youare turning out fighters, boxers or grapplers you really should not be talking about what does and does not work in those enviroments and what will or will not be the next big thing in those sports
[/QUOTE]
It’s a discussion forum.. If folks want to discuss the merits of eating cupcakes before a match because they think it’s a good idea, they have the right to say so..
Any idea or discussion can be valid, or not.. But you can’t restrict discussion on a discussion board..and if folk want to speculate about the future of the sport they certainly can do that too without having to prove any particular supernatural abilities…
[QUOTE=YungChun;1012442]It’s a discussion forum.. If folks want to discuss the merits of eating cupcakes before a match because they think it’s a good idea, they have the right to say so..
Any idea or discussion can be valid, or not.. But you can’t restrict discussion on a discussion board..and if folk want to speculate about the future of the sport they certainly can do that too without having to prove any particular supernatural abilities…[/QUOTE]
Of course you can’t tell someone not to state his opinions… you can, however, tell them how ludicrous those opinions are.