One day, Ill show some applications; as someone swings a heavy pole in real time and as hard as they want too.
That movement can also be used as a reinforced block; both swords support each other within a very hard swing of the pole, or simply blocking a low attack while simultaneously hacking at the wrist of your opponent.
What chance do you think that your double short knifes will have any chance to deal with this 1.7 Kg and 140 cm (4.3 ft) long “Miao Dao- The Grain Leaf Saber”?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noYb1p3L0Sg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZUCFPKKJhA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKlNdF3xoKM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paJ03Pk7E14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyXijEQExJQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzG8KjPGtL0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=BP4IyS0Prqk&NR=1
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1220310]What chance do you think that your double short knifes will have any chance to deal with this 1.7 Kg and 140 cm (4.3 ft) long “Miao Dao- The Grain Leaf Saber”? [/QUOTE]
Like in any fight, a knife fight is one you should walk away from, but you should treat it like the pole and only work the swords as an extension of the hands. And as quick as the hands move without the swords, you should develop the same agility with them.
And try to take advantage of the big movements of that weapon as if someone was throwing very large and telegraphing punches or kicks and by taking up his space (dont get caught on the end of that weapon) while trapping or pinning that weapon away from your center mass (the advantage of two limbs).
But, the wing chun person having use of two limbs and shorter weapons compared to his opponent, has a better chance in making the other guy fight for his balance. But when dealing with blades youll never know, and when sparring against a 9 or 11 foot pole it has been done, while in most blade arts the pole or stick has always been consider as a bladed weapon (in training).
Take care,
[QUOTE=Ali. R;1220308]One day, I’ll show some applications; as someone swings a heavy pole in real time and as hard as they want too.
That movement can also be used as a reinforced block; both swords support each other within a very hard swing of the pole, or simply blocking a low attack while simultaneously hacking at the wrist of your opponent.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that be Intresting too see that in action realtime know doubt .Within the Wsl line the same effect can be aqquired , useing the Bong do movement at short range I most definitely would prefer as it brings a more safer reasurance responce. as no flipping invovled ? Hence risk of dropping knifes; In high speed intensecity of the fight .Which i feel is a more fisable reality of happening, making my as&% comprimised some what . If it works lam using that sh%t and what dont i discard and find a more practical solution to the problem !
[QUOTE=thedreamer7;1220171]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=smwcvKXchwc[/QUOTE]
Nice Video production..
[QUOTE=Sihing73;1220267]You should move naturally and just like you walk. My Hsing Yi instructor was telling me that one of the best Wing Chun guys he ever worked with just moved like he was walking and he was so natural and balanced it was like he was always on point.
I used to move like a robot, now I move like an arthritic robot ;)[/QUOTE]
Good point..when it looks like your doing nothing its when your doing the most.
[QUOTE=Jansingsang;1220301]There is a saying in VT The Baat jaam do has no match ! I believe in the form.Wsl version .Not what we witness here in Ip chuns mangled version with poor foorwork no angleing, trieffling flipping knifes nonsence that can get you killed . Yip man was the first to beat the fencer .Butcher mind state ! 
[/QUOTE]
So you see an over dramatised, very abstract film clip and feel qualified to comment on how a whole lineage trains:rolleyes:
The knife form is no different to the other wing chun forms, there are things that lend themselves to direct application, elements for conditioning, abstract concepts and movements necessary to transition between other elements.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1220349]So you see an over dramatised, very abstract film clip and feel qualified to comment on how a whole lineage trains:rolleyes:
The knife form is no different to the other wing chun forms, there are things that lend themselves to direct application, elements for conditioning, abstract concepts and movements necessary to transition between other elements.[/QUOTE]
Look the fellas from that neck of the woods Ip chun Kwok Whatever same form Not my cup of char Ok whatever floats your boat and puts a smile on your grumpy chops, each too there own so be it :o
[QUOTE=Jansingsang;1220301]There is a saying in VT The Baat jaam do has no match ! I believe in the form.Wsl version .Not what we witness here in Ip chuns mangled version with poor foorwork no angleing, trieffling flipping knifes nonsence that can get you killed . Yip man was the first to beat the fencer .Butcher mind state ! [/QUOTE]
Saw WSL form… It has the same flaw, the same basic Flaw as the others.
I’ll never leatrn Baat Jaam Do, I don’t Think Wing Chun knows a **** about knives, there is better out there for weapons.
[QUOTE=poulperadieux;1220360]Saw WSL form… It has the same flaw, the same basic Flaw as the others.
I’ll never leatrn Baat Jaam Do, I don’t Think Wing Chun knows a **** about knives, there is better out there for weapons.[/QUOTE]
Nobodys perfect boo hoo:rolleyes:
Not being funny How can you judge something youve never learn’t Wow :eek:
[QUOTE=Jansingsang;1220369]Nobodys perfect boo hoo:rolleyes:
Not being funny How can you judge something youve never learn’t Wow :eek:[/QUOTE]
No no, I refused to learn it, because of the flaw I saw.
I trained fencing, so I couldn’t learn the wing chun knife form because of some move you do at the beginning of the form, and thain it get worse.
But, if you didn’t noticed, I’ll let you like that, I don’t pretend to teach on internet.
But fencers here should see what I’m talking about.
Thanks for showing that.
It’s a showy fun version from Ip Chun lineage. There are different versions of the bjd.
It helps me to distinguish between development and application.
We dont walk around these days with a kwan or a do- but of properly taught and learned they can help in further development of the wing chun body and hands and footwork..
The thread is likely to wander as threads on this forum do.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1220383]-------------------------------------------------------
We dont walk around these days with a kwan or a do- but of properly taught and learned they can help in further development of the wing chun body and hands and footwork..
The thread is likely to wander as threads on this forum do.[/QUOTE]
Precisely
Wing chun knoves are to train the Wing Chun Body, they were imported for that, after, there’s the legend on the real expertise of wing chun in weapons.
[QUOTE=poulperadieux;1220378]No no, I refused to learn it, because of the flaw I saw.
I trained fencing, so I couldn’t learn the wing chun knife form because of some move you do at the beginning of the form, and thain it get worse.
But, if you didn’t noticed, I’ll let you like that, I don’t pretend to teach on internet.
But fencers here should see what I’m talking about.[/QUOTE]
Your interpretation of what each movement is for based upon what you see may be incorrect, you are far better to learn from someone who can explain things to you in order to form an understanding. Of course if you have no desire to understand then fair enough, but if so you should refrain from uneducated statements about the efficacy of the weapon.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1220426]Your interpretation of what each movement is for based upon what you see may be incorrect, you are far better to learn from someone who can explain things to you in order to form an understanding. Of course if you have no desire to understand then fair enough, but if so you should refrain from uneducated statements about the efficacy of the weapon.[/QUOTE]
No no, I base my affirmation from a fencer point of view.
Didn’t know fencing rules and basic principles didn’t apply for wing chun guys with knives.
You guys are soooo special.
And speaking about education, did you do a bit of fencing? Did you saw the flaw in the knives form I 'm talking about?
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1220349]
The knife form is no different to the other wing chun forms.[/QUOTE]
In your lineage you consider the knives to be no different??? Strange because in my lineage the thinking is totally different. In fact they contradict many ideas from the other components of the system.
Would you care to explain why you think this? I don’t want to bicker but I would guess it is because your Sigung doesn’t know. That is quite a common thought these days.
There is a situation in my lineage where by the student will only be taught the knives to people that show their worth in sparring. Due to the dangerous nature of fighting with them, wussies need not apply. Apprehension in knive fighting can lead to injuries. If you don’t like to get stuck in and are controlled by fear the knives will be a problem for you. This is why there a quite a few differences within our own lineage. WSL didn’t teach too many people knife fighting.
As your Sigung doesn’t like fighting I would guess that he probably was shown aspects of the form but no sparring.
Like Leo AY, Ip Chuns Knives are riddled with mistakes. They may look good to the untrained eye but for fighting…completely wrong.
There is always the chance that you and your peers may have taken things further than you were taught of course but I’d still like to know your thinking behind the knives and how they fit into your system.
[QUOTE=poulperadieux;1220427]No no, I base my affirmation from a fencer point of view.
Didn’t know fencing rules and basic principles didn’t apply for wing chun guys with knives.
You guys are soooo special.
And speaking about education, did you do a bit of fencing? Did you saw the flaw in the knives form I 'm talking about?[/QUOTE]
You may as well give up on this one. You clearly don’t know what you are talking about so, as usual, you make snidey remars at people.
Go on say it…lay a cake or something, say that I am huge and that I have made your day etc etc etc :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
[QUOTE=poulperadieux;1220427]No no, I base my affirmation from a fencer point of view.
Didn’t know fencing rules and basic principles didn’t apply for wing chun guys with knives.
You guys are soooo special.
And speaking about education, did you do a bit of fencing? Did you saw the flaw in the knives form I 'm talking about?[/QUOTE]
Sounds to me like you are convinced that fencing is the most superior weapon system on the planet and even though that perspective is based upon no knowledge of any other systems, also known as belief based upon ignorance. There are many different concepts in weapons play across the varying martial arts, they all have a rationale and most can be applied effectively in the hands of a skilled practitioner. To claim that fencing is superior to other weapons systems is a bit laughable considering it was evolved to fight someone using the same weapon and fighting in the same fashion.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1220431]Sounds to me like you are convinced that fencing is the most superior weapon system on the planet and even though that perspective is based upon no knowledge of any other systems, also known as belief based upon ignorance. There are many different concepts in weapons play across the varying martial arts, they all have a rationale and most can be applied effectively in the hands of a skilled practitioner. To claim that fencing is superior to other weapons systems is a bit laughable considering it was evolved to fight someone using the same weapon and fighting in the same fashion.[/QUOTE]
Fencing IS the most efficient system with blades on the planet of course.
And it’s very true.
European have a lot of history of real documented life at stake duels to prove that.
There were written manuals, where people noted, after someone’s death, what worked and what didn’t. An there was a lot of deaths.
No forms in fencing, little theory, simple nomenclature, and more than 3 thousand years of practice.
And, just to inform you a bit more, there was a lot of different blades in Europe, and different styles, Italian were the best, than the spanish stole from them as the Italian turned Wing Chun men style, than the French stole from the spanish.
The german school is a bit a part, Lichtenhauer is badass.
Look at this vidéo, if you butcher knives can be match :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1220431]Sounds to me like you are convinced that fencing is the most superior weapon system on the planet and even though that perspective is based upon no knowledge of any other systems, also known as belief based upon ignorance. There are many different concepts in weapons play across the varying martial arts, they all have a rationale and most can be applied effectively in the hands of a skilled practitioner. To claim that fencing is superior to other weapons systems is a bit laughable considering it was evolved to fight someone using the same weapon and fighting in the same fashion.[/QUOTE]
Fencing IS the most efficient system with blades on the planet of course.
And it’s very true.
European have a lot of history of real documented life at stake duels to prove that.
There were written manuals, where people noted, after someone’s death, what worked and what didn’t. An there was a lot of deaths.
No forms in fencing, little theory, simple nomenclature, and more than 3 thousand years of practice.
And, just to inform you a bit more, there was a lot of different blades in Europe, and different styles, Italian were the best, than the spanish stole from them as the Italian turned Wing Chun men style, than the French stole from the spanish.
The german school is a bit a part, Lichtenhauer is badass.
Look at this vidéo, if you butcher knives can be match :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc&feature=youtube_gdata_player