I ca'nt speak for other WC schools or variations... But at our school the WC includes plenty of locks , chokes, sweeps and other takedowns...
The fact is, most ppl on the street hav’nt been trained to fight…and that can be problamatic for ppl that have been trained to fight, imo. It,s like playing poker…which I do often. It can be very frustrating to try to beat ppl that “don’t know how to play”…because they play wild and unpredictable.
The chances of you ening up on the ground at some point in a confrontation have to be about 50/50. I think it’s instict to take it to the ground…especially if you’re losing. You can see this from grade school fights to the UFC.
So while I do’nt think it’s better to be a “jack of all trades” rather than a “master of one”…I do think that once youv’ve established proficiency in your art, there is nothing wrong with supplementing with some ground fighting skills.
[QUOTE=saifa5k;809488]Looking for a wing chun lineage that emphasis’s grappling and joint locks…
… Can someone give me some info on some wing chun schools in the U.S. that teach the chin-na part of the art?
Dave[/QUOTE]
Well, foreveryoung, I guess you skipped the first thread. I was trying to assist a fellow Wing Chun student find a Sifu who emphasises grappling skills, not try to rationalize trying another style or interrupt the flow of a good thread.
We all have our opinions and it’s a shame that so many tend to try and influence people to cross-train, especially within a Wing Chun section of the Forum when the question was about finding a suitable Wing Chun school! I guess I haven’t tried converting all you MMA ppl by entering your space, but then again thats just not my nature.
You’re wasting your time trying to convert me I’m afraid…
AGAIN, let’s get back on track and try to ‘help’ Dave.
[QUOTE=forever young;810079]man i think that you have it the wrong way round and i honestly feel sorry for those who think the sun rises and sets wing chun style!!! if you cannot see that wing chun does not have all the answers any more than any other system then you are truly blind…
as has been pointed out to you ‘wing chun specializes’
or as quoted elsewhere…
Is it me, or is striking vs grappling a bit like carpentry vs. bricklaying? They’re different subjects, but to build a house you need both.[/QUOTE]
I think this is a bit of a fallacy. I don’t think you NEED both. I look at it very different. Kind of like cars. A truck and sports car are very different and serve different purposes. You can find hibryds, but you tend to sacrafice a little. If you want true speed and performance, you get something like a porche or what have you. If you haul large equipment, you get a truck. If you have a large family you get something different. Of course you can buy a El Camino that looks like a truck or a Dodge ram truck that may seem sporty. But both sacrafice and are no subsitute for the other. In my mind, wing chun plays a different game.
If you graft something on to it it goes against the grain of the style it self at a fundamental level. I have no problem learning multiple stuff so you canlearn grappling then switch between the two just as you might own a sports car and a pickup. But I think the problem there is getting enough time to train adequatly in both. Perhaps like trying to learn Classical Guitar the same time as trying to master the blues. Perhaps it is easy to toy with both, but hard to really acheive skill at either unless your pretty dedicated. But you can be functional.
But in any case, analogies and models are only so useful and they break down rather quickly if you look too close at them or apply them where they weren’t meant to be applied
Ask any bouncer currently working and they will tell you that the amount of people trying to fight like “MMA” is increasing.
Fact is shows like The Ultimate fighter and networks like Spike showcasing MMA are making grappling and MMA more and more common.
SO, if your goal is effective fighting, yes you need to be exposed to both striking and grappling at the highest level you can.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;810167]
SO, if your goal is effective fighting, yes you need to be exposed to both striking and grappling at the highest level you can.[/QUOTE]
Amen bruva - and i love my VT.
My Dads 64 AC Cobra with 450HP can waste my 4wd twin turbo Subaru in a straight line but as soon as we hit some corners… he’s toast !
[QUOTE=southernkf;810134]I think this is a bit of a fallacy. I don’t think you NEED both. I look at it very different. Kind of like cars. A truck and sports car are very different and serve different purposes. You can find hibryds, but you tend to sacrafice a little.[/QUOTE]
well i think you are wrong. it isnt about sacrifice, i never sacrificed any wing chun i had learned the moment i started learning bjj. humans as a species dont generally behave in this type of 1 in 1 out mentality (well i dont anyway ) and i am quite capable of knowing how to drive both a motorbike and an hgv without any problem!!!
[QUOTE=southernkf;810134]
If you want true speed and performance, you get something like a porche or what have you. If you haul large equipment, you get a truck. If you have a large family you get something different. Of course you can buy a El Camino that looks like a truck or a Dodge ram truck that may seem sporty. But both sacrafice and are no subsitute for the other. In my mind, wing chun plays a different game. [/QUOTE]
again knowing one thing has liitle to no bearing on knowing something else. if i want to run fast i run fast, if i want to jog slow i jog slow, if i want to carry my tv i carry my tv, knowing/ability to do one thing dosnt interfere with my ability to perform a different task, and further more i can eat a sandwich and walk at the same time so i think i might even be able to multi task (not as well as the wife granted but hey im just a man ) so getting back to your quote well i guess i will just go and buy all the vehicles i need for every occasion i might have (much like the work van AND family car i own and operate distinctly and individually while being able to do both to a fairly decent level - im no formula one driver but hey im still here ;))
[QUOTE=southernkf;810134]
If you graft something on to it it goes against the grain of the style it self at a fundamental level. I have no problem learning multiple stuff so you canlearn grappling then switch between the two just as you might own a sports car and a pickup. [/QUOTE]
as i stated im quite capable of knowing/ having the ability to do/use more than one thing and on occasion even concurrently/consecutively
[QUOTE=southernkf;810134]But I think the problem there is getting enough time to train adequatly in both. Perhaps like trying to learn Classical Guitar the same time as trying to master the blues. Perhaps it is easy to toy with both, but hard to really acheive skill at either unless your pretty dedicated. But you can be functional.[/QUOTE] man you are so wrong its unreal ok ill spell it out if you learn to play the guitar you can and will learn to play all kinds of music…you might well have a preference as to which type of music/car you drive/plane you fly /whatever but you can and will be able to do all of those things - with the appropriate training of course whew now as to time i train as much wing chun now as i always did and once you are of a certain level you shouldnt really feel the need to sit in your horse while watching the tv or while out shopping with the wife (c’mon you all know you were there too once upon a time :D) sothe fact i have time to train bjj 3 times a week has little to no bearing on my wing chun time - oh and for the record while in my wing chun class i manage to somehow incredibly only do wing chun and similarly while in my bjj class i dont suddenly bust out with my horse stance mid triangle (altho the hip movement is another discusssion altgether)
[QUOTE=southernkf;810134]
But in any case, analogies and models are only so useful and they break down rather quickly if you look too close at them or apply them where they weren’t meant to be applied[/QUOTE]
ah right so after all that its all just a crock eh?
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;810116]Well, foreveryoung, I guess you skipped the first thread. I was trying to assist a fellow Wing Chun student find a Sifu who emphasises grappling skills, not try to rationalize trying another style or interrupt the flow of a good thread.
We all have our opinions and it’s a shame that so many tend to try and influence people to cross-train, especially within a Wing Chun section of the Forum when the question was about finding a suitable Wing Chun school! I guess I haven’t tried converting all you MMA ppl by entering your space, but then again thats just not my nature.
You’re wasting your time trying to convert me I’m afraid…
AGAIN, let’s get back on track and try to ‘help’ Dave.[/QUOTE]
hi well thanks for the pm and i hope we get to meet up as discussed, i think it will be good fun and in the spirit of exchange …ps ill leave the ‘converting’ to the religous types and simply try and improve my meagre skills, hopefully you can teach me something and i look forward to learning from you.
re the op the premise remains that in order to learn ‘good grappling’ i need to seek out a specialist in this area however if i just wish to ‘crapple’ around a bit i would just perhaps buy a dvd or two, and hey presto instant grappling 101
I think you really missed my points. You can indeed own as many specialized vehcles as you want and drive them all you want. That wasn’t my point. My point was when you created a hybrid vechile that was part this vehicle and part that. Specialization is called a trait that takes advantage of unique abilities. Wing CHun is specialized as is BJJ or any other art. There is nothing preventing you from learning wing chun and some other style and use them as you wish. I said that in my post. The issue is trying to mix things together. Wing chun works on a specific framework that may be contradictory to other styles. Sure there always are similiarities, but the foundations may be very different.
As for music, I would love to see a Muddy Waters perform a Mozart piece or Andre Segovia perform BB Kings The Thrill is Gone. Sure they could get the melody and get by, but each is a specialty that requires a lot of practice and understanding of that genre. I am not saying a skilled Classical Guitarist can’t find his way around the I-IV-V progression and play a blues scale with feeling, but there is so much more to what Clapton, King (any of them), or Son House does.
sothe fact i have time to train bjj 3 times a week has little to no bearing on my wing chun time
It doesn’t? It seems to me that those 3 times a week are spent NOT training wing chun. So they do have a direct impact. I don’t know how much you train a week in wing chun, but if you can substatially train in wing chun and other arts, great. You will be better than most people. Unfortunatly most people can’t spend 5-7 days a week at wing chun training. Many people train say 2 days at school and maybe an hour at home. Then they expect to take another art which they may spend the same amount of time. There is nothing wrong with this, but I don’t think your helpping your cause IF your intent is to get good at either. If you want to get good at wing chun you HAVE to devote lots of time. Look at most of Yip Man’s most respected students and you will find they spent HOURS daily training. I don’t feel you will get good at any art if you split the time. But agaiin, this is different for every one and I don’t know your particulars. If you can put in the time, great. Learn as many arts as you want. I never suggested you couldn’t. What I suggested is Grafting Chin-Na or something on to wing chun may be counter productive if it violates the principles wing chun depends on. You can’t just take the hands of one art and graft it on to the legs of another, in my view. But nothing prevents you from applying Chin Na or BJJ when the opportunity presents itself.
I think you really missed my points. You can indeed own as many specialized vehcles as you want and drive them all you want. That wasn’t my point. My point was when you created a hybrid vechile that was part this vehicle and part that. Specialization is called a trait that takes advantage of unique abilities. Wing CHun is specialized as is BJJ or any other art. There is nothing preventing you from learning wing chun and some other style and use them as you wish. I said that in my post. The issue is trying to mix things together. Wing chun works on a specific framework that may be contradictory to other styles. Sure there always are similiarities, but the foundations may be very different.
As for music, I would love to see a Muddy Waters perform a Mozart piece or Andre Segovia perform BB Kings The Thrill is Gone. Sure they could get the melody and get by, but each is a specialty that requires a lot of practice and understanding of that genre. I am not saying a skilled Classical Guitarist can’t find his way around the I-IV-V progression and play a blues scale with feeling, but there is so much more to what Clapton, King (any of them), or Son House does.
It doesn’t? It seems to me that those 3 times a week are spent NOT training wing chun. So they do have a direct impact. I don’t know how much you train a week in wing chun, but if you can substatially train in wing chun and other arts, great. You will be better than most people. Unfortunatly most people can’t spend 5-7 days a week at wing chun training. Many people train say 2 days at school and maybe an hour at home. Then they expect to take another art which they may spend the same amount of time. There is nothing wrong with this, but I don’t think your helpping your cause IF your intent is to get good at either. If you want to get good at wing chun you HAVE to devote lots of time. Look at most of Yip Man’s most respected students and you will find they spent HOURS daily training. I don’t feel you will get good at any art if you split the time. But agaiin, this is different for every one and I don’t know your particulars. If you can put in the time, great. Learn as many arts as you want. I never suggested you couldn’t. What I suggested is Grafting Chin-Na or something on to wing chun may be counter productive if it violates the principles wing chun depends on. You can’t just take the hands of one art and graft it on to the legs of another, in my view. But nothing prevents you from applying Chin Na or BJJ when the opportunity presents itself.
Sorry I wasn’t clear[/QUOTE]
ahem i think it was me who wasnt clear bjj is done on the floor, wing chun is done standing up. now i never said i was “mixing things up” infact i clearly stated that when i do wing chun i do wing chun and likewise bjj and to clarify even further i personally would find it very hard for example to armbar or choke anyone within wingchuns preferred range nor would i likely have much success in for example performing a bongsau while being pinned to the floor in the north south position other than to get myself kimura’d or armbarred so to suggest that any “Grafting on” takes place appears to me to be a position based on ignorance of my intentions as to WHY exactly i feel the need to learn bjj and WHAT exactly bjj entails and its subsequent overlap within wing chun. i can safely state for a fact that doing bjj WONT wreck your wing chun in any way and most scary of all you might enjoy it. now how all this relates to training time or more specifically wing chun training time well as i stated i go to bjj on days when their is no wing chun and just fyi at one time i was training at least 16 hours of wing chun per week OUTSIDE class time :D, im lucky i have a job where i could and did spend all day doing chi sau with my brother and a sihing and a sidai for at least a 4 year period (infact i recently posted some clips of me and my bro training after taking the day off work) so while i have tapered this off a fair bit now i can assure you training something else takes only one thing and that is the commitment, it dont take anything away from wing chun when during all your available wing chun time you just do wing chun.
oh and again just to clarify when you say
[QUOTE=southernkf;810636]Learn as many arts as you want. I never suggested you couldn’t.[/QUOTE]
i think that
[QUOTE=southernkf;810636]Then they expect to take another art which they may spend the same amount of time. There is nothing wrong with this, but I don’t think your helpping your cause IF your intent is to get good at either. If you want to get good at wing chun you HAVE to devote lots of time[/QUOTE]
and
[QUOTE=southernkf;810636]
What I suggested is Grafting Chin-Na or something on to wing chun may be counter productive if it violates the principles wing chun depends on[/QUOTE]
betray what is in all honestly both an elitist attitude and perhaps a lack of understanding of cross training (or to be more accurate dual training ;))
[QUOTE=southernkf;810636]Hi Forever_young,
The issue is trying to mix things together. Wing chun works on a specific framework that may be contradictory to other styles. Sure there always are similiarities, but the foundations may be very different.
[/QUOTE]
i would just like to address this if i may now while i obviously dont know you or your background im gonna assume you have never trained bjj i can wholeheartedly assure you that in many many ways bjj adheres to the principles of wing chun as much or MORE than wing chun (leverage and strength/muscle usage are just a couple, hip and elbow control are some more, energy conservation blah blah i could go on (and most likely am :eek: but hey i dont mind :D)
in many ways one of the biggest things i have realised since beginning ‘Dual training’ is that things like telegraphing, power production (hip usage combined with body mass utilisation - etc etc) are NOT exclusive to wing chun and can be found in all systems one way or another. now before you all say yeah but yada yada yada bear in mind i had NO martial experience outside wing chun so i honestly thought the sun rose and set wing chun style and was definately one of the ‘cant be taken down brigade’ so to discover this was quite a revelation especially as i was a wing chun snob of the highest order
Ive not trained formally in BJJ - but from the things ive picked up from friends that i spar with that are BJJ and MMA fighters - much crosses over - which is what intrests me about BJJ to begin with…
Food for thought southernkf - Im glad you were not around when the Lok Dim Boon or BJD was “said to be” added to VT. Im sure the original behaviour was quite different to certain foudations of the H2H style -and still is in part - :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=sihing;809493]Sifu Gary Lam teaches chin na in his system, he calls it closing or standing grappling. He’s located in Monterey Park, California (close to LA), www.garylamwingchun.com , call him, he’s very open to talk to and always willing to answer your questions. I’ve trained there as well, it’s basically a full time school, you live on the grounds and can get anywhere btwn 4 to 7 hrs a day of supervised training. Sifu Lam’s level 1 is concerned with crossing hands (this is what Wing Chun is famous for, fast hands, trapping, chain punch, etc..), Sifu’s level 2 is all about control and feeling, chin na is a part of the control aspect.
James[/QUOTE]
Hey James, thanks for your response, sorry it took so long to reply. Its good to hear that Sifu Lam believes in the chin na aspect of wing chun. Isnt he from the Wong Shung linage? Dont know if I spelled that write or not, but do you know if he has any students or instructors in Oklahoma any where? I live in the Tulsa,OK area which to my knowledge has no current wing chun schools of any linage openly teaching.
Dave
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;809500]“Looking for a wing chun lineage that emphasis’s grappling and joint locks.”
***THEN you should check out WENG CHUN. A close cousin to wing chun but it emphasizes standing armlocks, throws, and sweeps. Punching and kicking are secondary to the standing grappling aspects of this art.[/QUOTE]
LOL, I think you are putting me on but actually thats what I am looking for
Dave
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;809569]I have recently discovered that a few relatives of the Lee Shing Family are in the U.S, and anyone from this family will teach relatively useful grappling skills as we generally link this knowledge to our Pole/Stick and weaponry training.
thanks for your response, I actually have a couple of Sifu Lambs tapes and your right he does show some joint locks in them. Do you know if he has any students in the Tulsa,OK area?
Dave
[QUOTE=saifa5k;810900]Hey James, thanks for your response, sorry it took so long to reply. Its good to hear that Sifu Lam believes in the chin na aspect of wing chun. Isnt he from the Wong Shung linage? Dont know if I spelled that write or not, but do you know if he has any students or instructors in Oklahoma any where? I live in the Tulsa,OK area which to my knowledge has no current wing chun schools of any linage openly teaching.
Dave[/QUOTE]
Hey Dave,
Your correct, Sifu Lam was a long term student of Wong Shun Leung. He’s taken what he learned from his Sifu, and added his own to it, drawing from his testing/research and experience. As far as I am aware there is nobody in your area that teaches his system. My best advice would be to travel to LA for a couple of weeks training, if possible longer, give him a call:)
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;809598]My view is that WCK – regardless of lineage – has the tools for controlling an opponent, as that is an integral part of WCK’s method (which is essentially to control while striking, with the control and striking working together to enhance each other – your control increases the effectiveness of your strikes, your strikes aid you in control). The chain punchers you refer to, with their Caveman WCK, are only using a very, very limited aspect of WCK. The difficulty is finding someone who knows – and they only know if they can do it – how to use the WCK tools to control an opponent. Anyone who has good WCK skills will have this aspect to their game. And as these skills/tools are integral to WCK’s method, they should be taught/learned from day 1, as they are fundamental skills.
Hey Terence my old friend from the wcml I agree, just concentrating on wing chun chain punchs and kicks is not the highest level of the wing chun art. My problem is finding someone in the Tulsa,OK area that teaches a more advanced or complete wing chun. Last I heard you were doing some long distance training with Sifu Chu from California, is it correct to assume then that he incorporates chin na aspects as a way of control? By the way you still defending all the bad guys in St. Louis ;).
Dave
[QUOTE=saifa5k;810907]
is it correct to assume then that he incorporates chin na aspects as a way of control?
[/QUOTE]
I seriously doubt that is what T meant by control…
WCK way of controlling is done in such a way as to keep our weapons free and in use–you do this–structure destruction while pounding them----crash and bash—together..
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;809614]There is also something else to consider here, saifa…
Using standing joint and elbow locks, sweeps, and throws - while important to know, are difficult to get from a standing position against any kind of skilled opponent. Usually they will occur only after being set up by striking/controlling/unbalancing, ie.- a debilitating, or at the very least, a “stunning” type of strike has been landed - and then the lock, sweep, or throw.[/QUOTE]
Hey Victor,
I agree with you completely. I have studing a little Aikido and Tai Chi along the way and they both teach that unbalancing first is the key to a successful lock or throw. What I am looking for now is someone that incorporates this into there wing chun style so I dont have to go outside of wing chun to learn locks, throws, etc. Appreciate your response.
Dave
) and i am quite capable of knowing how to drive both a motorbike and an hgv without any problem!!!
) so getting back to your quote well i guess i will just go and buy all the vehicles i need for every occasion i might have (much like the work van AND family car i own and operate distinctly and individually while being able to do both to a fairly decent level - im no formula one driver but hey im still here ;))
ok ill spell it out 
so to discover this was quite a revelation especially as i was a wing chun snob of the highest order