Wing Chun evolution of vtm

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

My opinion in the clips in his VTM post on WCK evolution.

  1. The Hong Kong WCK is a Ip Man Wing Chun.

  2. The Red flag WCK is an evolution of Ip Man WCK . It is more likely a wing Chun 2000.

A, it has the ip man WCK slt signature where the snake part such as in YKS , SNake crane, yik kam where evolved.

B, even it claim to be related to Tan Sau Ng, Nothern Shaolin , And Tan Sau, there is No wck Tan Sau in this set at all but Tong kiu or Zhao yang of white crane of fujian which is present . How can a fujian white crane symbolic technic named Zhao yang comes from a Northern shaolin ?

C, it is very interesting that , the legend of Tan Sau Ng, how he is from northern shaolin, how he has a great tan sau is always mention. What one missed is that Tan Sau in WCK 1850 is a snake hand belongs to the snake reel. Check into those older lineages of red boat WCK one will this snake hand type called tan sau.

3, the black flag is a further evolution of the red flag. Importing fujianese art. It is more likely a 2010 WCK evolution.

Wing Chun 1850 has snake and crane in all red boat related lineages, be it in chan wah soon, yks, snake crane, kulo, yik kam.

I would say the three clips are a presentation of three Ip Man lineage WCK evolution instead of the evolution of red boat opera WCk.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1174544&postcount=9

2

The forum and the mag involves Gene’s management. And Gene has a special relationship with Benny-
so he can print whatever he wants to.

The VTM is Benny’s commercial shop. ..with changing wares.

History? Not!!

3

[QUOTE=Hendrik

I would say the three clips are a presentation of three Ip Man lineage WCK evolution instead of the evolution of red boat opera WCk.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1174544&postcount=9[/QUOTE]

Hendrik- Ip Man had little to do with all 3 flags and their commercial messages.

It’s a B & G san jose show.

4

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1181417]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- Ip Man had little to do with all 3 flags and their commercial messages.

It’s a B & G san jose show.[/QUOTE]

True, Ip Man has little to do with these.

signature from the 3 flags system show, It is VTM related took Ip Man’s lineage art and evolve to these 3 flags system.

A decade ago these people writting article and book claiming they have the real WCK while the red boat lineages are watery version.

Well, after a decade and evidence show, the are no depth or evidence in all of their claim.

5

This is from the Chinese Traditional Kung Fu Magazine from Hong Kong in the present.

With Main branches of Wing Chun in China. one can see, Chen HuaShun (Chan Wah Soon) , Yi Jin ( Yik Kam ) , KuLo, YKS,…etc Listed with their lineage ancestors. and traceable family trees.

However there is no the red flag and black flag.
If these flags lineage are existed, there should be there trackable and recognized by the people in China.

6

[B]Wing Chun Flourishes
The second phase of Wing Chun development, Modification and Public Awareness, arose and flourished over the next 100 years. During this era, Wing Chun went through its third period of major change in form, footwork, and structure. Environmental and cultural factors such as exposure to life on boats in the southern coastal regions of China for over 100 years may have heavily influenced stances and training methodologies. The art began a transition from military employment to civilian use and support.

As a result of this transition, Wing Chun outside the Hung Fa Yi tradition began to discard its scientific orientation and revert back to a focus based on individual expressions and personal experience. Likewise, students were no longer required to endure hours of initiation ceremonies and blood oaths to fight to the death for a specific cause.

Nevertheless, Wing Chun’s fighting effectiveness continued, as repeatedly demonstrated in challenge matches with other styles and individual opponents. The majority of today’s most popular lineages stem from roots in this era. Two of those lineages stem from one man alone for each: Yip Man and Gu Lao (g? l?uh). Both originated from Dr. Leung Jan (l?uhng jaan), who learned his Wing Chun directly from Red Opera members. Others lineages include Pao Fa Lien (p?auh f? l?hn), Yuen Kay San (y?n k?ih-s?an), Pan Nam (p?ahng n?ahm), Nanyang (n?ahm y?uhng), Cho family (ch?uh ga), and numerous subsystems practiced throughout Southeast Asia. -------[/B]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=141

with the opening of China,
Contradict to what VTM claim, we today via the evidence of the traditional practice of the older Red Boat WCK lineages, we knows that the " snake reel and crane widstand" are solid scientific common denominator of the Red Boat WCK 1850. From Kulo to YKS, from Chan Wah to Yik Kam, they all share these solid common denominator.

Now , after a decade of the above article, the question for VTM is why is all these flags system WCK has no Snake Reel and Crane Widstand of Wing Chun 1850? and Why they still dont have trackable ancestors and family or otherwise who practice the flag system in Mainland China?

7

While this all seems like troll bait to me, I agree, all this flag talk is nonsense - There is no red flag or black flag or any other flag WC. IMO, this is just marketting by the VTM.

Just to clarify one point: The FACT is, the ‘red flag’ SNT that was demonstrated by Benny’s guy Daniel in the clip was really a distorted version of HFY’s SNT that they incorrectly labeled as red flag as part of their new marketting scheme and to discredit what it really was - HFY SNT as can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnKJDv43CjA

Since you are too uneducated in WCK to know, this form has nothing to do with Ip Man as you incorrectly try to guess at here with all these silly games you’re playing. Also, if you knew what you were talking about or even looking at in the clip I linked, you would see that besides just snake and crane, there are also dragon and eagle signatures as well (among others). But then, all of this was covered in the other thread..

Hey, I have a an idea since you are a ‘WCK researcher’: So you can better make an educated decision based on actual first-hand experience and since it’s obvious by this thread that you are quite interested, how about next time I am out there, we can meet and so you can see in person and we can compare what is what? That way you don’t have to look foolish with all your silly second and third hand guessing :wink:

8

since you volunteer to get yourselves involve.

Proof it to the Chinese wcners in china as you like.
Get yourself as a main WCK lineage as those in the magazine above.
Those are the significant people or proper channel you want to prove to.

I am not interest in you or what you are doing. Thanks.

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1181437]While this all seems like troll bait to me, I agree, all this flag talk is nonsense - There is no red flag or black flag or any other flag WC. IMO, this is just marketting by the VTM.

Just to clarify one point: The FACT is, the ‘red flag’ SNT that was demonstrated by Benny’s guy Daniel in the clip was really a distorted version of HFY’s SNT that they incorrectly labeled as red flag as part of their new marketting scheme and to discredit what it really was - HFY SNT as can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnKJDv43CjA

Since you are too uneducated in WCK to know, this form has nothing to do with Ip Man as you incorrectly try to guess at here with all these silly games you’re playing. Also, if you knew what you were talking about or even looking at in the clip I linked, you would see that besides just snake and crane, there are also dragon and eagle signatures as well (among others). But then, all of this was covered in the other thread..

Hey, I have a an idea since you are a ‘WCK researcher’: So you can better make an educated decision based on actual first-hand experience and since it’s obvious by this thread that you are quite interested, how about next time I am out there, we can meet and so you can see in person and we can compare what is what? That way you don’t have to look foolish with all your silly second and third hand guessing ;)[/QUOTE]

9

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1181429]This is from the Chinese Traditional Kung Fu Magazine from Hong Kong in the present.

With Main branches of Wing Chun in China. one can see, Chen HuaShun (Chan Wah Soon) , Yi Jin ( Yik Kam ) , KuLo, YKS,…etc Listed with their lineage ancestors. and traceable family trees.

However there is no the red flag and black flag.
If these flags lineage are existed, there should be there trackable and recognized by the people in China.[/QUOTE]

Hendrik-I don’t know that magazine. Taichi barely has a history and even now despite considerable proof ,the Chen Man Ching folks dont always regard Chen style as the mother style-unfortunately.
a magazine is not a source of final authority. Knowledgeable people have to judge by what they
see.

And this forum is just a chatter box.. not a place to resolve issues in a disciplined way.

I began with a solid wing chun line , ,many years ago-kept an open mind- but have seen no basis for changing. But I still keep on learning by listening, chatting and practicing..

If magazines were authorities then Benny Meng would be a real; “grandmaster” in that crowded field of grandmasters- after all-this mag is helping him produce and market his commercial products.

Just expressing a POV- not intentionally arguing.

10

Joy,

You have a good point.

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1181446]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik-I don’t know that magazine. Taichi barely has a history and even now despite considerable proof ,the Chen Man Ching folks dont always regard Chen style as the mother style-unfortunately.
a magazine is not a source of final authority. Knowledgeable people have to judge by what they
see.

And this forum is just a chatter box.. not a place to resolve issues in a disciplined way.

I began with a solid wing chun line , ,many years ago-kept an open mind- but have seen no basis for changing. But I still keep on learning by listening, chatting and practicing..

If magazines were authorities then Benny Meng would be a real; “grandmaster” in that crowded field of grandmasters- after all-this mag is helping him produce and market his commercial products.

Just expressing a POV- not intentionally arguing.[/QUOTE]

11

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1181438]since you volunteer to get yourselves involve.

Proof it to the Chinese wcners in china as you like.
Get yourself as a main WCK lineage as those in the magazine above.
Those are the significant people or proper channel you want to prove to.

I am not interest in you or what you are doing. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

I have no need to prove anything, I made no claims on this thread. I just came to make a clarification regarding Benny’s clip.
I could care less about this made-up flag business or your magazine that proves nothing - I don’t look to old texts or videos of other lineages or arts for my WC like you do. Good luck in your ‘studies’

12

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1181475]I could care less about this made-up flag business or your magazine that proves nothing - I don’t look to old texts or videos of other lineages or arts for my WC like you do. Good luck in your ‘studies’[/QUOTE]

I find your response here a little harsh considering the ‘mag’ that Hendrik posted is really only one little example of the efforts that have gone into researching Wing Chun in the mainland, not by Hendrik but by other journalists and researchers.

New Martial Hero magazine is another, although more controversial, publication and that too has spent years trying to decipher the HK and mainland traditions in Martial Arts.

FWIW I feel what Hendrik is suggesting here makes sense and although it may never be proven it doesn’t take a genius to see and feel the difference between someone that has an Ip Family influence and older roots that do not. Of course, it always helps to actually have learnt good Wing Chun in the first place, regardless of its origins, because that it what matters in the end… :wink:

13

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1181484]I find your response here a little harsh considering the ‘mag’ that Hendrik posted is really only one little example of the efforts that have gone into researching Wing Chun in the mainland, not by Hendrik but by other journalists and researchers.

New Martial Hero magazine is another, although more controversial, publication and that too has spent years trying to decipher the HK and mainland traditions in Martial Arts.[/QUOTE]

Not harsh at all. I meant nothing against the magazine, I just have no need or desire to prove something to some authors of some article as Hendrik is suggesting I do :rolleyes: - I made no claims here. IMO this whole topic is a joke

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1181484]FWIW I feel what Hendrik is suggesting here makes sense and although it may never be proven it doesn’t take a genius to see and feel the difference between someone that has an Ip Family influence and older roots that do not.)[/QUOTE]

Sure, and you can’t ‘feel’ these things by reading magazine articles, looking at old pictures of statues or watching clips of other arts and posting it up here as ‘proof’ of some new fangled claim. They give insight but that’s it. The only way to really tell the differences and ‘know’ something is by actual experience. I’ve offered to do that by meeting up with Hendrik in person, but then he’s not really that interested :wink:

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1181484]Of course, it always helps to actually have learnt good Wing Chun in the first place, regardless of its origins, because that it what matters in the end… ;)[/QUOTE]

Agreed, and that’s my point. In the end it’s understanding & knowledge as passed down from a sifu along with demonstratable skills that matters. I know what I have and where it comes from.
I see no need to look to magazines or old clips for information or to prove some new theory or point as Henrik does and I don’t have to prove it to some poor uninvolved third party author of an article that crazy hendrik dragged into this whole flag nonsense thread.

14

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1181492]IMO this whole topic is a joke[/QUOTE]

Well I might have to disagree there. Anything that sheds some light onto some of the main promoters of the current Wing Chun trends must be a good thing right? Whether it shows them as good or bad makes no difference, it’s just good practise to be ‘well informed’.

I am not supporting everything Hendrik is saying either, but I do kinda agree with his angle on these systems actually being more modern than they suggest in their marketing propoganda.

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1181492]Sure, and you can’t ‘feel’ these things by reading magazine articles, looking at old pictures of statues or watching clips of other arts and posting it up here as ‘proof’ of some new fangled claim. They give insight but that’s it. The only way to really tell the differences and ‘know’ something is by actual experience. I’ve offered to do that by meeting up with Hendrik in person, but then he’s not really that interested ;)[/QUOTE]

Maybe he can not see how you would fit-in to his ideas and interactions? I mean, I have only seen very little of what HFY has to offer but I can say that it too can not prove it’s own origins. It also revoles around the legend of Tansau Ng doesn’t it? I mean, even I can’t prove that my own grandmaster learnt directly from Ip Man lol!! And he was living and breathing right up to 1991!! We just have the ‘words’ of our teachers and the evidence in our hands andf for most this is the norm, but for others they have an urge to prove everything!!

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1181492]I know what I have and where it comes from.[/QUOTE]

But this is the trap. You think you know until you learn different, as all of us do at many stages in our martial life IMHO.

15

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1181507]Well I might have to disagree there. Anything that sheds some light onto some of the main promoters of the current Wing Chun trends must be a good thing right? Whether it shows them as good or bad makes no difference, it’s just good practise to be ‘well informed’.

I am not supporting everything Hendrik is saying either, but I do kinda agree with his angle on these systems actually being more modern than they suggest in their marketing propoganda.

Maybe he can not see how you would fit-in to his ideas and interactions? I mean, I have only seen very little of what HFY has to offer but I can say that it too can not prove it’s own origins. It also revoles around the legend of Tansau Ng doesn’t it? I mean, even I can’t prove that my own grandmaster learnt directly from Ip Man lol!! And he was living and breathing right up to 1991!! We just have the ‘words’ of our teachers and the evidence in our hands andf for most this is the norm, but for others they have an urge to prove everything!!

But this is the trap. You think you know until you learn different, as all of us do at many stages in our martial life IMHO.[/QUOTE]

IMHO, you can get to know your sigung exist from all of his students and his own siheng dai and Ipman teaching in the art…ect. The story from different people might be different but All will match up and you will see a big picture because he exists.

Those lineages in the mag has generation and generation practitioners and cross link to different lineges at some points like a big network since 1850.

Anything doesn’t related to this big network and have generation of practioners are IMHO a new evolution. Thus, they have no tract trace in the past 150 years since 1850 red boat.

Vtm doesn’t have the evidence and also lost and confuse, thus, one sees the abandon of red flag and creation of the black flag Which is unrelated and not accord to WCK principle in term of technics and power generation.

IMHO, vtm is a sad story without using its resources to truly research but created more confusion in the WCK community and history.

Imho, One of the critical mistake direction vtm took is using the chinese triad connection as a default of a martial art creation. In fact, all the uprising and triad doesn’t have a proven connection to WCK creation. WCK creation needs to be solve by identify the source of WCK principle and technics with evidence. Instead of citing triad uprising or names in the red boat opera .

What is Tan sau Ng martial art type? No one knows . But the WCK tan sau is a snake hand in the above mag main WCK lineages. So, how is a tan sau Ng from northern china, expert in the snake hand of white crane of fujian fusion with the emei 12 zhuang? In fact today we can proof WCK tan sau of older red boat lineage is related to white crane and emei fusion by evidence. But, what is tan sau Ng martial art, which shaolin he is from how his tan sau like are unknown.

As in the red flag and black flag set shows above from vtm there is no WCK tan sau but tong kiu. Thus, the story of tan sau Ng. IMHO, is very not likely related to WCK. If he is related to WCK as vtm claim, then, the tan sau has to be tan sau, not tong kiu in thier set.

16

Good greif, what a train wreck. I’m outta of this thread - good luck :rolleyes:

17

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1181507]Maybe he can not see how you would fit-in to his ideas and interactions? I mean, I have only seen very little of what HFY has to offer but I can say that it too can not prove it’s own origins. It also revoles around the legend of Tansau Ng doesn’t it? I mean, even I can’t prove that my own grandmaster learnt directly from Ip Man lol!! And he was living and breathing right up to 1991!! We just have the ‘words’ of our teachers and the evidence in our hands andf for most this is the norm, but for others they have an urge to prove everything!![/QUOTE]“Proof” is a moveable feast though isn’t it? The only irrefutable proof is a witnessed baisi ceremony. But really even that is unnecessary. What really counts is what you can do as an exponent of your martial art, and if you teach what you can give to your students.

18

One of the pieces (the others being Vikoga and Hung Fa Yi) that Benny and Lin got together to form their “black flag” “eng chun”:
18 hands of Lohan from Indonesia, in this short clip demonstrated by Sifu Tio Tek Kwie (who publicly apologized for helping them creating that brand new “oldest” “Wing Chun”):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W_72qh3z7Q

19

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1181524]Good greif, what a train wreck. I’m outta of this thread - good luck :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

That’s unfortunate because I would have appreciated your feedback.

[QUOTE=CFT;1181524]“Proof” is a moveable feast though isn’t it? The only irrefutable proof is a witnessed baisi ceremony. But really even that is unnecessary. What really counts is what you can do as an exponent of your martial art, and if you teach what you can give to your students.[/QUOTE]

Very sound advice. :slight_smile:

20

[QUOTE=Marcelo-RJ;1181608]One of the pieces (the others being Vikoga and Hung Fa Yi) that Benny and Lin got together to form their “black flag” “eng chun”:
18 hands of Lohan from Indonesia, in this short clip demonstrated by Sifu Tio Tek Kwie (who publicly apologized for helping them creating that brand new “oldest” “Wing Chun”):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W_72qh3z7Q[/QUOTE]

We all can learn from these. People can analyze technics and power generation to get insight on what one is doing. Thus, in a long term people will know the facts.

This type of art fujian art is different with WCK because WCK has lots of small jing . In slt there are many small jing which is referred as the Snake. Thus, the power generation is different.

Sometimes, an old movie is good to learn about these because the old 1970 movie emphasis and zoom into WCK characteristics. And are related to the idea of older wck gm in hong kong, As the following

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbsvxEA1OM8

It is clearly says in this movie first screen, crane and snake compete becomes WCK. 1970 is the era with lots of old WCK Gm still living in hong kong by old Chinese tradition. The movie maker will not make something up to ****ed off these old WCK Gm which has influnce in the film industry.

And today these characteristics are fading away for lots of modern evolve lineages. The platform of the flags system of vtm doesnot supporting these movie type of details. It is a different platform.

Also, as the above mag main lineage of WCK, chisim Weng Chun which is in the book of vtm published is not present. Thus, one can see, weng Chun is not wing Chun. It is a different type of art.