Why does Black Flag history keep changing?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

From the old black flag website, viewed here: http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.FukienWengChunHistory

The underground Eng Chun system There were many underground secret societies who claimed their organization was founded by these Five ancestors. These organizations can easily be categorized by five different flag colors: 1. Red flags 2. Black flags 3. White flags 4. Green flags 5. Yellow flags

Yes, there was a black flag group in 1854, but that black flag army was supporting the Manchurian government on the Vietnam border against the French. They are not Anti-Manchu so how can the black flag claim to be anti Manchu?

Also, they have already mentioned the 5 different color flags as shown in the quote above. Those five flags, as well as being stated on the former Black Flag website are from 1920. As identified in Chinese government documents those 5 groups only existed at one time in all of Chinese history, and they were bandits. They robbed and killed people for a living! And, on top of that, the black flag bandits turned against the Chinese people to cooperate with the Japanese army. This group has nothing to do with Anti Manchu and they have nothing to do with Wing Chun. Their history has already changed on their website, and it is obvious that they have a problem understanding Chinese history, just like Hendrik seems to from his postings so far. I’m not sure if Hendrik just don’t understand English well and has a reading problem where he cannot understand Chinese history as already displayed on this thread (http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53727) from Chinese government documents. Maybe by voicing my perspective I can clear up some of the problems he seems to have.

Again, From the old black flag website, viewed here: http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.FukienWengChunHistory

Development of Eng Chun Kun inside Black flags society group Black Flags had a smaller number of highly trained troops. The main objective was to train professional killers to kill the Qing officials.

The Manchu didn’t event exist in 1920! How can they kill Manchu officials? They were busy being bandits killing regular people. The Black Flag bandits used knives and guns to kill people, not Wing Chun. How can they claim to kill the Manchu? Their time period is already in the New China era! Even if they did exist, why would anyone claim a group of bandits as a respectable group to claim a lineage from? They were nothing but a nuisance to Chinese society.

All the information coming out from the Black Flag group is contradicting documented Chinese history, how can their claims be taken seriously?

2

Read the post that I started a few days ago. The short of it is so that Benny Meng can start up an MMA style that he can claim as being from an ancient and unbroken line.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53987

3

IMHO,

1,
Lots of people Romance the HIs-story and Rebels’ and Non existing Buddhis monks… up to the point they live in a fantasy land which lead to losing thier art too.

2,
As for the Black Flag history, I am not yet seen HYF or Chi Sim’s solid evidence to support thier claim since VTM claim the Opera WCK as from GM Ip Man, YKS, Cho family, Koo Lo or the White Crane + Snake WCK is a watery version of the HYF and Chi Sim in KFO since decades ago.

So what is the different ?

VTM certainly needs to present supportive evidence to what they have claim not limited to just Black Flag.

4

Hendrik,

For the past 10 years you’ve been repeating yourself thousands of times, with bad grammar, and bad english. Nobody understands what you’re saying! The only time I see you say anything that makes any good english sense it’s some copied song from the 70’s or a quote from some buddhism book. Over all the years I’ve seen dozens of people have the same issue with you, whatever you write isn’t making sense, you are talking from a confused mind. All this time, all this writing, how come you’ve never tried to get any better at it? Most of your posts seem like you’re just rambling to yourself, not adding to the conversation.

Hendrik, I really suggest that you spend your time on a better use of your efforts, like taking a class on how to write english. In fact, didn’t you graduate from college? Did you cheat on your English 101 exam? My friend teaches 5th grade English and he wouldn’t pass you based on what you wrote.

For all I know, maybe you really do have some kind of medical issue coulding your mind, if that’s the case please seek help immediately. Maybe the KFO forum can take up a collection to help you out.

5

[QUOTE=Eric_H;934975]Hendrik,

For the past 10 years you’ve been repeating yourself thousands of times, with bad grammar, and bad english. Nobody understands what you’re saying! The only time I see you say anything that makes any good english sense it’s some copied song from the 70’s or a quote from some buddhism book. Over all the years I’ve seen dozens of people have the same issue with you, whatever you write isn’t making sense, you are talking from a confused mind. All this time, all this writing, how come you’ve never tried to get any better at it? Most of your posts seem like you’re just rambling to yourself, not adding to the conversation.

Hendrik, I really suggest that you spend your time on a better use of your efforts, like taking a class on how to write english. In fact, didn’t you graduate from college? Did you cheat on your English 101 exam? My friend teaches 5th grade English and he wouldn’t pass you based on what you wrote.

For all I know, maybe you really do have some kind of medical issue coulding your mind, if that’s the case please seek help immediately. Maybe the KFO forum can take up a collection to help you out.[/QUOTE]

This shows your personal agenda right?

Your concern is not WCK but your personal agenda whatever it is.

See, it is not my english. It is your heart is not pure.

The evidence is:

if it is true as you post above,

“bad english… whatever write isn’t making sense, talking from a confused mind.”

then,

Why do you qoute me in the very begining of this thread?
How clear is your mind? How making sense is your logic? How smart are you for qouting me? hahahaha

I careless about your stupid dodo agenda, and before you pointing finger at others’ history, clear your own history.

So, Dont qoute me.
and I am not intereseted to against or Anti the Black Flag or even VTM or even Benny.
That I am very very clear.

6

Hey,
His English suddenly got better : )~ j/k

7

Originally Posted by Hendrik
To be Fair, there are different Black Flat group in China between 1850 and 1940. So, one must not lump them together.

That I am very very clear.–by Hendrik

Flat or Flag???

Last edited by Hendrik; Today at 12:10 PM.

Last edited by Hendrik; Today at 11:21 AM.

A clear mind would not keep on changing his words, get some help.

Here this will help your “flat” problem.
http://www.amazon.com/ABC-Childs-First-Alphabet-Book/dp/0525469516/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242501938&sr=1-1

8

[QUOTE=Eric_H;934980]That I am very very clear.–by Hendrik

Flat or Flag???

Last edited by Hendrik; Today at 12:10 PM.

Last edited by Hendrik; Today at 11:21 AM.

A clear mind would not keep on changing his words, get some help.

Here this will help your “flat” problem.
http://www.amazon.com/ABC-Childs-First-Alphabet-Book/dp/0525469516/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242501938&sr=1-1[/QUOTE]

It is an evidence that
everyone who has a clear mind will and always change their wording to improve communication for clarification purpose.

Those who is confuse and lost will keep changing their history and in the same time blame others on practicing the same.

Get this and see for yourself who has keep changing their history.

http://books.google.com/books?id=t36y4sRDkWMC&dq=complete+wing+chun&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=AY-joldWAl&sig=c_iEwNevs1_jdtPYEFLmY9jMZuU&hl=en&ei=DRkPSv7qOJ6EtAOnxszmAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

Simple facts right?

9

its my feeling that black flag history is fake just like buddha hand wing chun

10

Silent Bob strikes back.

Hendrik, if Silent Bob’s Complete Wing Chun could help your English, that’s a good thing…amen!

Try: “There is evidence that”

Or: “Those who are confused and lost will keep changing their history”

Guess the book didnt help after all.

I think this book would be better for you than Silent Bob’s:
http://www.amazon.com/Penguin-Writers-Guides-Better-English/dp/0141016760/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242504762&sr=8-2

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[QUOTE=Eric_H;934990]

I think this book would be better for you than Silent Bob’s:
http://www.amazon.com/Penguin-Writers-Guides-Better-English/dp/0141016760/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242504762&sr=8-2[/QUOTE]

Thank you.

This is a Wing Chun discussion Forum, please keep you focus
in case you are capable.

Otherwise, Thanks and appreciate for your kind advise.

12

Wow! I actually haven’t seen either of those two books before, I’ll have to check into them. J/K :smiley:

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;934992]Thank you.

This is a Wing Chun discussion Forum, please keep you focus
in case you are capable.

Otherwise, Thanks and appreciate for your kind advise.[/QUOTE]

Hi Hendrik

I hope you are well.

I always gain so much from your posts. Thank you.

Eric H - You must be hyf… sorry hfy as you are always more right, if you say so.

Alan

14

[QUOTE=Hendrik;934992]Thank you.

This is a Wing Chun discussion Forum, please keep you focus
in case you are capable.

Otherwise, Thanks and appreciate for your kind advise.[/QUOTE]

I started a thread about Wing Chun history from the black flag sect, again you seem to be confused. Since, as you mentioned, this is a wing chun forum, looking at your past posts, what do songs from the 70’s have to do with it?

appreciate for your kind advise.

Should be “I appreciate your kind advice.”

Back to the black flag history, from http://www.shaolinkungfucenter.com/Fukien%20Black%20Flag%20Wing%20Chun%20-%2003%20-%20VTM%20Report.pdf

According to Fukien HKB Eng Chun [Black Flag Wingchun] oral legend, “The system as it was passed down was preserved in two forms: a Male aspect and a Female aspect.” Based on VTM research to date, the Red Flag and Black Flag organizations preserved the Male aspect of the system. It is also possible that the “male/female” designations came into being during the Opera phase of Wing Chun’s history

As far as I know, the only system to bring up “male/female” was Hendrik’s Yik Kam White Crane system. Looks like they’re even borrowing from him!

15

I started a thread about Wing Chun history from the black flag sect, again you seem to be confused. Since, as you mentioned, this is a wing chun forum, looking at your past posts, what do songs from the 70’s have to do with it?

Without those oldies, Hendrik would not be able to communicate with anybody, not that Hendrik knows how to sing, just that his English is limited.

As far as I know, the only system to bring up “male/female” was Hendrik’s Yik Kam White Crane system. Looks like they’re even borrowing from him!

There’s no such thing as “male/female” in all other wing chun schools except Yik Kam White crane and Black Flag Eng Chun. Why didn’t VTM or the black flag Eng Chun give back their credit to Yik Kam White Crane system? If black flag White Crane made more common sense than the black flag Eng Chun, Benny Meng should change their VTM/Black Flag Eng Chun label to VTM/Black Flag White Crane label. That may help Benny Meng to sell more VTM memberships in Brazil.

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[QUOTE=Pacman;934987]its my feeling that black flag history is fake just like buddha hand wing chun[/QUOTE]

Buddha Hand Wing Chun History is no more fake then any other WC history. What’s important is how real your WC is.

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[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;935904]Buddha Hand Wing Chun History is no more fake then any other WC history.
[/QUOTE]

That’s not quite accurate. While all WCK oral traditions (history) have elements of myth and fantasy (the Shaolin Temple, for example), we can reliably trace lineages (WCK history is lineage) as far back as the Red Boats with people we can prove really existed and knew/taught WCK. With regard to Buddha Hand, there is no evidence of its existence prior to Henry Leung (who has over the years come forward with several versions of BH lore). And, it “looks” remarkably like Yip Man WCK with a few flourishes.

What’s important is how real your WC is.

I completely agree.

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[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;935904]Buddha Hand Wing Chun History is no more fake then any other WC history. What’s important is how real your WC is.[/QUOTE]

I hope you know what you just step into.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;935927]That’s not quite accurate. While all WCK oral traditions (history) have elements of myth and fantasy (the Shaolin Temple, for example), we can reliably trace lineages (WCK history is lineage) as far back as the Red Boats with people we can prove really existed and knew/taught WCK. With regard to Buddha Hand, there is no evidence of its existence prior to Henry Leung (who has over the years come forward with several versions of BH lore). And, it “looks” remarkably like Yip Man WCK with a few flourishes.

I completely agree.[/QUOTE]

althought BHWC linages is a short one, It’s just a has valid as a lineage that goes back to the red boats era. JKD lineage is very short also. As far as BHWC looking very much like Yip Man WC… No its very differnet in every respect. Just ask someone who has trained with our group and they will tell you. Many have years in Yip Man WC and can tell you its very different. Unless you have personally trained with us( myself or my sifu) you can not make any sound judgment on it. I don’t make any judgnments on other WC style I have not personally have experience with. AS far as the several versions of BHWC again there are planty of versions of other lineages also. The versions don’t matter its only a story what’s important is what the style about ,Is it effect? is it what I’m looking for? and so on.

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[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;935950]althought BHWC linages is a short one,
[/QUOTE]

Yes, you’re correct – it started with Henry Leung.

It’s just a has valid as a lineage that goes back to the red boats era.

I’m not saying that as a martial art it is any less “valid” (whatever that means) because its lineage BEGAN with Henry Leung.

JKD lineage is very short also.

Very true. The difference is, of course, that Bruce Lee took credit for creating JKD – and didn’t make up numerous stories of where JKD came from.

As far as BHWC looking very much like Yip Man WC… No its very differnet in every respect. Just ask someone who has trained with our group and they will tell you. Many have years in Yip Man WC and can tell you its very different. Unless you have personally trained with us( myself or my sifu) you can not make any sound judgment on it.

Where have I heard that refrain before? :wink:

Yip Man WCK has numerous “signatures”, and BHWCK has those “signatures”. I won’t argue that Leung and his students may have gone their own way with BHWCK but I think its clear that it started out as YMWCK.