I hear alot talk about other arts on WC forums boards. But I wanted to start a non-confrontational thread for all WC practioners who study wing chun.
My Question is concerning a root. In many arts one must have strong root to develop and emit proper power from ground up. I was woundering if you Sifu has also shared with you about the root found in WC. Do you practice training your root? or do you think having a root is useless in an actual fight?
Whats your opinion?
Its not even a question, without root there is no wing chun.
If people intend to fight like trees I’ll just bring my axe. 
Seriously sacrificing mobility is suicidal in a close-range striking system.
As a result “rooting” should never involve actually fixing yourself in place. Only generating whole body power within a dynamic setting.
seriously sacrificing root at close range is suicidal, close range gives you less time or room to move so the more you need your body and the root from the ground to give you power, also you can be mobile and still have root, you only need it when hitting or being hit, and if you think your not going to get hit at close range you are mistaken.
Root is an analogy to help junior to understand dynamic holistic power generation that firmly supported. It was carried out of proportion and become totally misleading.
Root, there is no root in advance TCMA.
as it said in the ancient scripture, Yong Chuan (the kidney point 1 part of the feet) is not root. Waist is not the master, the spine similar to willow with thousand flexible sections, a single hand spread out it becomes a thousand hand.
The issue of today’s WCK is people keep defining “THIER” practice as WCK. Which is most of the time distorted big time.
and the saga continous until everyone is tired to use the name WCK because WCK no longer means a thing but empty words.
BTW:
What is “strong root to develop and emit proper power from ground up?” Fantasy?
Hendrik i’ve been looking on this forum for a long time and never realy posted, but its clear you know what your talking about, so this is just my opinion and i am open to critisism, but from my experience so far, to give a powerfull strike at close range, you must sink your body the power then comes from the heels to the k1 point up through the legs out of the hipps, through the elbow and out of the fist, exploding on inpact. If you dont sink your weight then you are top heavy and the power wont be as strong.
[QUOTE=scottking;923996]Hendrik i’ve been looking on this forum for a long time and never realy posted, but its clear you know what your talking about, so this is just my opinion and i am open to critisism,
but from my experience so far, to give a powerfull strike at close range,
you must sink your body the power then comes from the heels to the k1 point up through the legs out of the hipps, through the elbow and out of the fist, exploding on inpact. If you dont sink your weight then you are top heavy and the power wont be as strong.[/QUOTE]
Yup, it is about sinking as needed.
in the begining, K1 point is indeed use, however , later if K1 point becomes a must it can becomes a hinderance. The reason is , thus I have heard, after the 8 special medirians open up, it becomes a bouncing or swinging or springing of the 8 speical medirians group at will spontaneously no preparation. K1 sometimes is used sometimes not, depend on which special medirians is activate. that is the state of using Yee/will to lead Qi using Qi to transport the physical body. or Comes accept, Goes let it go back… using silence to lead action. ( see. there is no saying on rooting at all here, but flow. if one pin the structure, then is no longer flow). Thus, I have heard.
Saying that, that also become the case as the ancient writing above, Waist is not the master. Another words, the waist area no longer the master, but one will it it goes with the waist area become a support instead of a master.
Most of us, never get to this level thus, the K1 and Hip stuffs mostly works in the static but not in high speed high agile dynamic motion.
The High Speed High agile dynamic motion is what the SLT/SNT training shooting for.
But because most or all of us today doesnt activate/open the 8 special medirians, the YJKYM becomes useless for most, and that lead to certain WCner using big hip movement or hungar or shao lin or CLF or White Crane way to power the motion.
it is a fact that the prerequisite of to be internal means open/activate the 8 special medirians.
A few months ago, I wrote a comment in this forum on some European youtube presentation posting their very shao lin motion way of body/ hip move is the " truth "solution for SLT/SNT or WCK training.
Well, it is not. They opps they dont know WCK enough to that speculating. They dont know he 8 Special medirians activation of slt. Thier art is not WCK which based on SLT/SNT.
So, if the YJKYM not working, the best substitude is using the White Crane SanChin and default the art back to one of its mother art, White Crane. Using the White Crane platform will make the SLT/SNT solid. however, Using the Shao LIn/HUng Gar will not. because the Shao Lin/Hung gar type of platform doesnt support the hand technics in WCK well. Those are different platform for different type of power generation. And there are different ways of using hip…
Thus, I have heard.
Hendrik, that is way too deep for me, im going bed now, we will continue this discution tomorrow, goodnight.
it is too deep for me too. i post this just to shared there are other stuffs going on.
the rest, i dont know. it is just thus, i have heard on WCK.
sweet dream.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;924001]Yup, it is about sinking as needed.
in the begining, K1 point is indeed use, however , later if K1 point becomes a must it can becomes a hinderance. The reason is , thus I have heard, after the 8 special medirians open up, it becomes a bouncing or swinging or springing of the 8 speical medirians group at will spontaneously no preparation. K1 sometimes is used sometimes not, depend on which special medirians is activate. that is the state of using Yee/will to lead Qi using Qi to transport the physical body. or Comes accept, Goes let it go back… using silence to lead action. ( see. there is no saying on rooting at all here, but flow. if one pin the structure, then is no longer flow). Thus, I have heard.
Saying that, that also become the case as the ancient writing above, Waist is not the master. Another words, the waist area no longer the master, but one will it it goes with the waist area become a support instead of a master.
Most of us, never get to this level thus, the K1 and Hip stuffs mostly works in the static but not in high speed high agile dynamic motion.
The High Speed High agile dynamic motion is what the SLT/SNT training shooting for.
But because most or all of us today doesnt activate/open the 8 special medirians, the YJKYM becomes useless for most, and that lead to certain WCner using big hip movement or hungar or shao lin or CLF or White Crane way to power the motion.
it is a fact that the prerequisite of to be internal means open/activate the 8 special medirians.
A few months ago, I wrote a comment in this forum on some European youtube presentation posting their very shao lin motion way of body/ hip move is the " truth "solution for SLT/SNT or WCK training.
Well, it is not. They opps they dont know WCK enough to that speculating. They dont know he 8 Special medirians activation of slt. Thier art is not WCK which based on SLT/SNT.
So, if the YJKYM not working, the best substitude is using the White Crane SanChin and default the art back to one of its mother art, White Crane. Using the White Crane platform will make the SLT/SNT solid. however, Using the Shao LIn/HUng Gar will not. because the Shao Lin/Hung gar type of platform doesnt support the hand technics in WCK well. Those are different platform for different type of power generation. And there are different ways of using hip…
Thus, I have heard.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for that post. I found it very interesting and enlightening. I wish that we had more people like you here in the forum posting.
awesome
Your post are awesome.
You sound like you have a great Sifu who has shared some special truths with you.
But as for WC. WC has many facets with in a fight
1.Root
2.Flow
3.Hard Power
4.Soft Force
5.Agility
6.Solidness
7.Center Line
8.Four Gates
9.High
10.Low
There are many facets that are used when fighting with WC. Sometimes straight lines sometimes ciricles. But always at most advantageous times.
[QUOTE=scottking;923980]seriously sacrificing root at close range is suicidal, close range gives you less time or room to move so the more you need your body and the root from the ground to give you power, also you can be mobile and still have root, you only need it when hitting or being hit, and if you think your not going to get hit at close range you are mistaken.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=scottking;923996]Hendrik i’ve been looking on this forum for a long time and never realy posted, but its clear you know what your talking about, so this is just my opinion and i am open to critisism, but from my experience so far, to give a powerfull strike at close range, you must sink your body the power then comes from the heels to the k1 point up through the legs out of the hipps, through the elbow and out of the fist, exploding on inpact. If you dont sink your weight then you are top heavy and the power wont be as strong.[/QUOTE]
But I wanted to start a non-confrontational thread for all WC practioners who study wing chun.
Non-confrontation discussions are just big circle jerks.
Oh, you do it that way? thats okay… I do it this way. yay we’re both right. Lets jerk each other off til the sun goes down.
Interestingly enough, its a lot like aikido
As for the actual question…
In many arts one must have strong root to develop and emit proper power from ground up
Its one way of generating power. Its not necessarily the best, or entirely necessary, though it is extremely useful, and on top of that its just a good way.
Do you practice training your root?
Absolutely.
or do you think having a root is useless in an actual fight?
Everyone has a root in some way or another. A root is a connection to the ground. If you mean do you think having a strong root is useless… absolutely not. Countless systems, including boxing, utilize your root in one way or another. Look at Mike Tyson in his prime, all that power came from the ground.
It is however, counter-productive to box root into a single idea… as in.. you always need to have a strong connection to the ground.. Its a variable concept like anything else. Variable percentages of root based on what is needed.
Aikido
[QUOTE=AdrianK;924019]Non-confrontation discussions are just big circle jerks.
Oh, you do it that way? thats okay… I do it this way. yay we’re both right. Lets jerk each other off til the sun goes down.
Interestingly enough, its a lot like aikido :p[/QUOTE]
Is that slight at Aikido…My old Aikido master might not like that?
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;924018]Your post are awesome.
You sound like you have a great Sifu who has shared some special truths with you.
But as for WC. WC has many facets with in a fight
1.Root
2.Flow
3.Hard Power
4.Soft Force
5.Agility
6.Solidness
7.Center Line
8.Four Gates
9.High
10.Low
There are many facets that are used when fighting with WC. Sometimes straight lines sometimes ciricles. But always at most advantageous times.[/QUOTE]
And then there are lists. Sometimes useful, possibly in say academic study, or when shopping. But as to the use of the above list in a fight, you have got me there…
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;924020]Is that slight at Aikido…My old Aikido master might not like that?[/QUOTE]
Is your Aikido master old in years or old in that you have not had any use for him in some time? Or both?
Old in years
[QUOTE=Genetic;924035]Is your Aikido master old in years or old in that you have not had any use for him in some time? Or both?[/QUOTE]
Both actually
When I found out about Wing Chun and Chinese Martial Arts I left Aikido and Judo alone. But I saw a week ago at a family function. He is good friends with one of my uncle. But the guy is old…
LOL, well put about the list Generic.
FWIW, here’s my opnion:
If you can root on the instant of the punch landing you can dance ballet on the way for all I care.
If you can turn your root on/off as quickly as you can relax your da ready to strike again after impact, that’s what you need.
If you can forget about K1, and root from any part of your foot, or even if unbalanced use your opponent’s structure to root your own with, then you’re talking really useful.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;924020]Is that slight at Aikido…My old Aikido master might not like that?[/QUOTE]
Aikido is a perfect example of what happens when an old soldier weary of war embraces zen buddhism and tries to turn a trust building exercise into something resembling a martial art.
In other words: not-for-fighting.
As for root…
I think my problem is mainly with the term. All too often I’ve seen people who glue themselves to the floor because they think they are generating a good root.
YES your whole body generates power.
YES said power depends on the foot - ground connection.
YES sinking into a strike (or for that matter into a clinch) is useful.
BUT DON’T EFFING FIGHT LIKE A TREE!!!
[QUOTE=AdrianK;924019]Non-confrontation discussions are just big circle jerks.
Oh, you do it that way? thats okay… I do it this way. yay we’re both right. Lets jerk each other off til the sun goes down.
[/QUOTE]
For the most part, I agree. I’d amend that to say that any theoretical discussion of how things should work is essentially a circle jerk, and that’s because concepts are for the most part, a circle jerk. See below.
As for the actual question…
Everyone has a root in some way or another. A root is a connection to the ground. If you mean do you think having a strong root is useless… absolutely not. Countless systems, including boxing, utilize your root in one way or another. Look at Mike Tyson in his prime, all that power came from the ground.
It is however, counter-productive to box root into a single idea… as in.. you always need to have a strong connection to the ground.. Its a variable concept like anything else. Variable percentages of root based on what is needed.
My view is that most of these TCMA “concepts”, like root and rooting, are in fact counter-productive to our development. They are vague, poetic terms that intellectualize what is essentially a nonintellecutal activity. People then take thaat concept, impose their own (or their sifu’s) defintionfor it, and then use that defintion as authority for how things should be done (spot the circular reasoning?). They then take these preconeptions of the “right” way to do WCK, focus their attention to them, and do everything they can do to follow them, not realizing that by intellectualizing the process they are stifling their awareness of what is really going on (in the activity, with their own bodies, etc.).
When we learn by following concepts (which are ideas), we then judge our performance on the basis of how closely that performance conforms to our idealized “right way”. The conceptualized action is not “good” because it feels right and works but only because it conforms to our preconceived standard (that we imposed in the first place). Moreover, when we allow a concept to guide our experience, we perform by rote and our actions become mechanical and unnatural. Our learning is impeded because we are led by ideas instead of experience.
Using your example of Tyson, he didn’t develop with the help of concepts like “root” but from performance, from DOING IT (from experience) – which is how all good athletes develop. By actually hitting things and letting his body give him the feedback of what worked best for him, he found his power.
[QUOTE=SimonM;924081]Aikido is a perfect example of what happens when an old soldier weary of war embraces zen buddhism and tries to turn a trust building exercise into something resembling a martial art.
In other words: not-for-fighting.[/quote]Er, completely inaccurate. He defined aikido in 1924, and used it in fighting in wartime. And he embraced a shinto cult: nothing to do with Zen Buddhism. I’m not going to argue about the lack of efficacy in modern times though: but most of that comes from people copying what he did when he was already past it and nuts.
Back to root: T has nailed it. IMO you learn more about root by hitting things (pref ones that are moving and trying to hit you back) than by doing SLT, or talking about K1. The structure is given to you in the forms, but you can only develop it by feedback from hitting things.