Wing Chun and the MMA phylosophy

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Rene…(the real one!..I assume!) :wink:

I know what you mean but…A simple question: Do we like Wing Chun as it is or do we want to change it accordingly to the MMA mania?..Are we going to lose something or gain in the process?..
I’m not talking about effectiveness here. We know that Wing Chun is not the only effective art.My fear is that adding principles from other styles could dull Wing Chun and profit only to the most easy art to learn.
Just look at these MMA fighters and see how they are becomming uniform in style and approach! The “Mix” is gone for a long time and as nature always dictated, the biggest and strongest almost always win! As I see it anyway!

42

Old Jong?

On another forum (I hardly need name it :frowning: ) there are those who would say ‘Jong’s’ Wing Chun has already been changed.

I understand the ‘principles’ remain, so I’m not flaming (whatever that expression means). But where do people draw the line?

Some might bring in something ‘extra’, but it still might conform to the principles WC stands by, while others may ‘change’ a form to give additional benefits.

Who’s to decide if this is right or wrong? It’s not always youngsers and the inexperienced that make such changes.

Duncan

43

s.teebas sez:Ok i’ll start, Tsui Seung Tin linage is Superiour!!!

“Superiour”? Oz. Is that with fries? I am not in Oz so mine is
superior.

old jong—dont worry much of wing chun will evolve- but not all change is good…JKD and its friends are indeed here…different forms of mma is already playing its role-- a sameness to much
of martial arts these days… even in HK they are often headhunters–with skills going out of the window. Those who insist on staying with the art ,devloping without being robots understanding the concepts and mechanics, ignoring marketing and netting noises and seeing applications in depth and adjusting to whatever faces them will have a real treasure in self development and self defense..
In the meantime US pankration is in the making like a hot dog…
actually some are using the name pankration- you can soon practise panjutsukuen at a dojang near you.

44

“Superiour”? Oz. Is that with fries? I am not in Oz so mine is crap

No thats my poor spelling, and it’s not fries..its chips mate!:cool:

45

Hey Teebas- you are misquoting— i generally dont use words like crap on the net…though I know that function!!

46

How do you guys and gals feel about modifying Wing Chun? Do you feel it has reached the pinnacle of evolution?
I was thinking a while back, since this whole ground fighting thing is so controversial. Since I want to get into tourneys, but I am not interested in learning a new or another art, I want to approach the ground game with a Wing Chun mind. Not sure how I want to go about this but basically, by getting together with someone who is familiar with that range and trying to understand the basics from the way they see it and applying wing chun principles to that range.
Ground fighting is still an important range to know how to deal with, whether you believe you will ever go there or not. I have yet to walk into a Wing chun school where this is being studied. Could be bad experience, doesnt need to be given any more special attention then any other range but it cant be ignored.

47

black and blue

ULTIMATELY- who decides what changes are acceptable- you do-but caveat emptor… avoid the Scylla of innovation for its own sake or out of ignorance and the Charybdis of robotic imitation.
True=in the land of the lost(VTAA) apparently I have my minutes of unsought fame.Am in a large company. I ignore fools.
if seriously interested in knowing the why and wherefores of changes by Fong see the relevant article on my site at
www.azwingchun.com
If you or anyone has a specific question ask ina civil fashion and if I see it
I will attempt to give you an answer.
Cheers-off to the factory.

48

Yuanfen

Hey Joy,

>>…avoid the Scylla of innovation for its own sake or out of ignorance and the Charybdis of robotic imitation…<<

I didn’t know you were a fan of the “Police”. JK, couldn’t resist…lol.

49

“How do you guys and gals feel about modifying Wing Chun? Do you feel it has reached the pinnacle of evolution?”…
I honestly don’t know!..I will know when I will have truely digested and mastered all of it’s concepts and principles…For now,I try to learn and perfect what is in the system for me to learn.
I’ll see after.

50

“I honestly don’t know!..I will know when I will have truely digested and mastered all of it’s concepts and principles…For now,I try to learn and perfect what is in the system for me to learn. I’ll see after”

I know that it takes along time to learn wing chun. I think part of the issue is what I have brought up. Some are concerned with fighting effectiveness. For instance, who here started to learn most of the fighting ranges within thier first year? Second year? Who here has been through a good couple of years of training and not really addressed some of the fighting ranges.
Now before you go telling me its all there in some secret place where if I practice real hard it will all come to me, well, some of that attitude I do not agree with. I do agree that WC can be a complex art but it is still a fighting art and maybe the effectiveness of its training needs to be addressed? Maybe that is the issue.
There are some merits to training old school, but some people dont do it because of the art half, they do it because of the martial half. My thing i sthat I dont see why you shouldnt be able to efficiently defend yourself in a year and a half? that is not too unreasonable. I am not talking about mastering the art, just using its precepts and concepts well enough to apply them at all ranges?

51

" My thing is that I dont see why you shouldnt be able to efficiently defend yourself in a year and a half?"
…Sure! you should be able to do that! A little kung fu, agressivity and relatively good conditionning should be enough to defend yourself fairly well. Now imagine after 10 years maybe of serious study,striving for the possible best in accuracy,timing,structure,sensitivity,power E.T.C.! It should be worth the efforts don’t you think?
Compare this to guitar playing: You can play relatively well after a year.You can accompany simple songs and have a great time,then you could feel limited by your level on the instrument and start thinking about learning the piano! Or…Practice on your guitar for 10 years and play like a virtuoso! Now you could think about learning the piano!..If you feel like it, and not because you feel you need it to compensate for the beginner level guitar! (I hope this example makes sense!)
:wink: :rolleyes: :eek:

52

Old Jong, I understand what you say about extensive training over years. Its logical that you would gain some credible ability after 10 years of practicing and training. What I am saying is that if it is taking to long to learn a system, maybe the way it is taught should be trained? The range that have come into some scrutinization is the ground. I have never seen anyone in WC training to deal with it, unless they are learning some other art that addresses it. I dont think this is a failing of the system but there is a lot of odd attitudes going around about it.
Often, when a WC person is asked what they would do on the ground, you get some pretty silly answers, like “I just wont go to the ground” - nice if you can manage it, if you can, I would like to know what you are doing, or “I will just use (Insert technique here)” - also nice, in a special world where everyone is susceptible to said tech. , Closely related to this is “I would hit him hard so I can KO him before he drags me to the ground.” - right.
Still have yet to see see a descent explanation or idea on how to deal with it and stay within WC. Can you see why new guys might want to crosstrain?

53

I understand red5angel

I don’t condemn people who are learning ground fighting on the side to feel more secure.I know Wing Chun does not offer much practical confort in that field looking at it from a technical point of view. Can it offer more on that subject at a more advanced level with the awareness and sensitivity associated with high Wing Chun skills?..I hope to find that out for myself!..Someday!

:wink:

54

I believe that what we need is in the system. Ground fighting has been long ignored by CMA people, WC is no exception. But its so controversial now because it was ignored for so long. Now, no one knows how to do it very well because it was ignored for so long it isnt even taught in some systems!
What I am saying is this, in wing chun, once you get the basics, like any other art, you begin to learn the rest. We learn kicking and punching, as well as trapping, sensitivity and rootedness, and we do most of this at the same speed. For instance in my class we do warmups, forms, rooting and sensitivty drills, pak sau drill. Every few days we mix it up and do something different, walking, kicking, what ever. how many of your schools get a mat out and see what WC has to offer once it hs been taken to the ground?
Wing Chun is s imple system, you could learn it in a very quick time, and given a good oppurtunity to practice, become proficient in a short time as well. I beileve you could learn the system in a year, proficiently. You would have by no means mastered it, and you would be missing some more complicated things, deeper skills that wing chun has to offer.
Regardless, this is why so much attention has been paid to ground fighting or mixed martial arts. The ground fighting issue has brought to light something that has been sorely ignored for too long.
Are we WC people saying our sensitivity and chi sau drills, rooting drills are enough to help us out if we are taken down?! why do you think that those WC guys that participate in UFC, or what have you cant compete? Because they buy into this crap! I dont want to hear that WC doesnt work with certain rules, any art can be made to work in any situation, or it should anyway. I dont want to hear that they paid too much attention to cross training either, those are old and tired arguments.
The truth is that WC has become complacent to some extent. Same with other arts. Most people now a days would rather stand around and do pretty forms etc, and show off for thier friends the cool kung fu they can do. Or how about getting a workout? You work hard enough even Wing chun can make you sweat off some pounds!
What I am saying is that if Wing Chun is a true martial art, then it will have answers for all ranges, if not, then it is incomplete. If these skills cannot be learned relatively quickly, within a year or two, then it is ineffective.

55

Getting taken down

In a world where you can literally watch former Olympic wrestling champions get taken down to the ground and or submitted, in NHB/MMA events, it is foolish for Wing Chun let alone other arts to claim they won’t EVER face that predicament. Otherwise Wing Chun guys should start entering the Divisoin 1 Nationals and Olympics and stalemating those guys. :smiley:

One can certainly chose to ignore that situation and hope that they never get caught by a single leg, double leg or just plain tackle or drag down.

We can always whistle in the dark and hope that the opponent we face is weaker, has incompetant grappling skills, etc. In those cases we probably did not need to study Wing Chun, we’d just windmill whale on em. :rolleyes:

We as a system should also note that it took VERY LITTLE TIME
for other MMA guys to adjust to what BJJ was doing on the ground and neutralize what was (until people trained and learned the basics of BJJ) an unfair advantage. Why should it be any different for Wing Chun? Investing a few years of training along side our Wing Chun shouldn’t hurt.

It seems to work for the folks at Kamon Wing Chun, Rick Spain’s group, Chung K. Chow, etc.

And it wasn’t like the payoff was something that “might or might not” happen for 20 years, if you are lucky.

I wonder why this is so controversial? :confused:

56

OJ,

I agree this has been a good discussion with good points made.

Cheers

AN:D

57

you have to learn wing chun well in order to fight with it.
I sincerely dont think you are there yet. Onlya few months ago you were looking for a school in Minnesota ,Red 5.

58

I think the groundfighting issue raises such a big stink because very few are humble or honest enough to admit to themselves or in general that wing chun does not effectively deal with the issues that are encountered when working on the ground, or even getting to the ground. This leaves a feeling of psychological weakness. Nobody wants to worry that there is possibly a large gap in there training, that there is an inherent and untrained for vulnerability, and some people just simply have no desire to train in that range.

And the opinion that you can apply a standup art successfully on the ground is most likely wishful thinking. Sure, there are going to be a very few concepts that might apply to both situations, but the physical manifestation of those concepts are going to be a lot different depending on which range they are applied in. Wing chun is great at what it does, which is specializing in the standup striking range. Study an art in addition to wc that specializes in groundfighting if it is an overwhelming concern.

59

Replies to David in brackets below:
In a world where you can literally watch former Olympic wrestling champions get taken down to the ground and or submitted, in NHB/MMA events, it is foolish for Wing Chun let alone other arts to claim they won’t EVER face that predicament.

((David…IMO anyway—Two Olympians from Phoenix - not gold but bronze and silver-one in wrestling and one in judo were defeated by the Gracies–Severn and the judoka whose name begins with an L.He has a judo studio here. The Severn brothers all wrestled for Arizona State one time or another. Severn took Royce down in their first match but then didnt know what to do with them because of his wrestling sport orientation. He just rolled around and got choked out.The judoka didnt know how to defend his face against pretty clumsy punching because of his judo sport .))

One can certainly chose to ignore that situation and hope that they never get caught by a single leg, double leg or just plain tackle or drag down.

((More difficult to do against a wc person who knows what they are doing. But even if it happens:That is not the end for a decently trained wing chun person.
Again lots of wing chun folks are NOT trained properly-that is not flaming that is experienced observation))

We can always whistle in the dark and hope that the opponent we face is weaker, has incompetant grappling skills, etc. In those cases we probably did not need to study Wing Chun, we’d just windmill whale on em.

((Windmilling and whistling in the dark is bad wing chun))

We as a system should also note that it took VERY LITTLE TIME
for other MMA guys to adjust to what BJJ was doing on the ground and neutralize what was (until people trained and learned the basics of BJJ) an unfair advantage. Why should it be any different for Wing Chun? Investing a few years of training along side our Wing Chun shouldn’t hurt.

(We are not a system. We are very disparate unsynthesized stew
of stances, centering, footwork etc. We are one of the most mixed
up purveyors of gobbledygook mixed with shin guards, forearm guards, imbalanced with genrous dashes of macho and arrogance)))

It seems to work for the folks at Kamon Wing Chun, Rick Spain’s group, Chung K. Chow, etc.

((Without any reference to specific persons above…I admire the
real bjj folks… they have their game -they have been at it a long long time and they CAN take most wc folks who dont have balance, centering and dont have wc defenses aginst chokes, arm bars etc and just learn a little bjj to be dangerous-to themselves. Come to think of it- i wish most wing chun folks would defect to bjj and the lion’s den. They havent learned enough wing chun any way. You have the guy in the Canadian affair starting a move witha KICK for christsake.So going against the crowd- this is a different brief in the midst of some good opposing opinions from you anerlich and others)))

60

Wish I could find the post, but a while back Watchman told about how he used WC to counter a Walt Baylis guy on the ground and either fended the guy off or beat him. Anybody here remember that post?