Wing Chun and the MMA phylosophy

“So given the choice of taking time to learn bjj versus getting better at wing chunI confidently prefer the latter, because i continue to see the connecting and continuing skill devlopment ahead in the wing chun path.”

And that’s what it’s really about with any art isn’t it, seeing the connecting and continuing skill development ahead. In a sense MMA has given an excuse to blame the art to those who either don’t see what you said from their instructor or are just to lazy to see. Or just not commited to stick with any advanced training in any art. Now I’m not refering to the real MMA guys who are as serious about what they do as any traditionalist but to the young buck style hoppers that call themselves MMA.

anerlich, they ever let the ASAS off of Oz?:smiley: I’ll say those SBS and SAS guys are pretty good.

OJ, good thread for a Canadian.:cool:

Mixed Martial Arts

anerlich, they ever let the SAS off of Oz?

They are in Afghanistan right now. I think Dubya mentioned one of ours that was killed there in a speech he made not that long ago.

They were in East Timor recently, and Rwanda about 8 years ago. They were also sent to stop boat people landing on Australian Territory (Christmas Island) last year, not that that was exactly their finest hour.

Probably doesn’t make the US media, but to be fair we don’t hear every last little thing about what the Navy SEALs get up to either.

gnugear, as Ryu said at the bottom of his post, MMA is Mixed Martial Arts, usually referring to the UFC, Pride, and similar contests where the rules permit both striking and grappling. If you go to www.mma.tv, and from there to the underground forum, you will find out all you could possibly want to know. An excellent site BTW.

MMA tend to make traditional martial artists uncomfortable, which is a good thing IMHO. Over time, people can become complacent, can become objects at rest. Anything that gets them thinking, analyzing, testing, honing, etc. again is a good thing, is an external force acting upon them. The only question is: how will the traditional martial artist react? Will s/he turtle up, pull his/her head into his/her shell, rationalize, excuse make, mutter, mumble, and stew, or will s/he begin to work.

Now, you can work hard only on your own traditional art (though you might have to re-invent some wheels that were developed in the mean-time), or you can cross-train (though you may have to split your time/effort). What you choose will depend on your own interests and what you feel suits you best.

And even if you’re just training MA for fun, and don’t give a flying fig about usability, the same applies. Heck, you can even train different arts for different reasons. You can do WCK for self-defense, and train and compete in martial sports as well if that’s where your interests sit- Judo, BJJ, sambo, kick-boxing or whatever-the same way some people train WCK and play golf, basketball, football, or even Lion Dance, cha cha, or the like.

It all depends what your own priorities and desires are. For every choice there’s an opportunity cost. Only so many hours in the day, after all. Just don’t blame WCK or BJJ or whatever for that.

Rgds,

RR

anerlich!

You are mocking my line about a perfectly done Wing Chun technique! :frowning: I guess you have never felt one before! :wink: (O.K. I’m teasing you there!)You surely know how it feels to be punched at the exact moment when you are confident that YOU are going to hit the other guy!..And, I see no bad in learning some other art (Like BJJ).As long as our Wing Chun remains as complete and pure as it should.Not a mix or hybrid thing! I play guitar and saxophone and I don’t think one when I play the other.They each have their own thinking,feel,patterns and…Training or practice techniques!(Don’t do a double leg in chi sau practice!)
Rogue!..Thanks,
I guess I’m learning from you,people of the world! :wink:

Musashi on MMA and Tournament Fighting

Anything in these snippets strike a chord, Old Jong? :wink: :slight_smile:

  • kj

No man is invincible, and therefore no man can fully understand that which would make him invincible.

The “Way” cannot be learned through frivolous contests in which the outcome is for the name of a school or a large trophy. It can only be realized where physical death is a reality.

The ancient masters must be studied constantly without respite, even when the practitioner thinks he has grasped the knowledge.

Calmness is attained through meditation and belief in your own skills. It is not to be confused with egotistical technique, which generally fails under intense combat situations.

Remember, the main idea behind becoming a warrior is learning how to destroy the enemy. Without destroying the enemy you are playing a child’s game. … Think of nothing but cutting the enemy down. …There is no other reason to be a warrior.

Practice is the only way that you will ever come to understand what the Way of the warrior is about. … Words can only bring you to the foot of the path.

The obvious answer to all things is practice and more practice.

The more you practice, the more the “spirit of the thing itself” will reveal itself to you. For whatever reason you have chosen to be a warrior, you must understand your responsibility to the art and to yourself. They are one and the same.

It is foolish to get into scuffles with an enemy and not attack with a killing resolve. In order to understand life and death, you must actually be in a situation where the possibility of death exists.

Each time you practice a “thing,” the “spirit of the thing itself” will reveal more of itself to you. Study is a life-long undertaking.

My school is different. I care not for the dressings of other uniforms or the growing of small trees, although these things have their place. If the school is primarily interested in building up a clientele and displays the trophies won at tournaments (among other things) it give the student the wrong idea about the Way of the warrior. Essentially, such a school is trying to sell its wares to the public by using the long sword as a means to accumulate wealth. This is absolutely not the way of the warrior.

Circumstances being equal, the winner of the fight is still the one with the most resoluteness.

Early on in training your teacher must impart this wisdom to you. If he does not, perhaps he is the wrong teacher for you if you truly wish to learn the Way of strategy.

It is not wise to criticize another’s Way. There are reasons for each man to have his own. … There is no need to examine the doctrines of another school of thought until you have come to terms with the doctrines of the school you are studying. … When you feel that something is missing or that you are not learning anything further, you must of your own volition seek the next level of instruction.

If you hope to understand my strategy you must study as many of the martial arts as you can and never veer from you chosen course.

Good post KJ! Good to see us WC people sharing experiences and growing together for a change :wink:

david

KJ-
good wing chun timing in injecting into the discussion the right context from Musashi
on the way of a warrior.Cheers.

I see some people still like and watch The Karate Kid films

Good post KJ

But,that “killing and warrior” verbiage is a little bit extreme to me! I don’t feel like a bushido or feodal warrior ready to kill at the first short notice. I would maybe inflict some serious facial damage to an opponent or knock him out in self-defense but ,I would never want to kill somebody until my life or a loved one’s life would be in real danger.
I think there is a place in our times for a non-sporting and effective martial art as a way of life without those extreme feodal ideas.
The rest of it sounds like music to me!
:wink: :wink: :wink:

Re: Good post KJ

Originally posted by old jong
I would never want to kill somebody until my life or a loved one’s life would be in real danger.

Of course I agree!!!

With due consideration, this seems to be consistent with Musashi’s point as well.

Alpha Dog sez:

I see some people still like and watch The Karate Kid films

Not me- watched the first one- didnt go back for the sequels…
sequels seldom make it in my books…except for Godfather II.

But the most memorable line from Miyagi for me was the half truth-
“Karate not Japanese----Chinese”.(And wax in , wax out has some wing chun parallels))

Mushashi is interesting to me from a cross cultural standpoint…
the five rings…those are exactly the 5 elements of Buddhist
philosophy… and as therein he saves emptiness for the end…
it’s
the grand synthesis.
And emptiness is very important in the wing chun path IMO.

Re: Wing Chun and the MMA phylosophy

Originally posted by old jong
Wing Chun is not easy to master even if it seems simple in the beginning.
Old Jong,

This is the dichotomy that confuses many. The simplicity and logic of the system masks the complexity of a sophisticated and complete martial art. No batteries required. :wink:

The problem for many is that they need to see results sooner rather than later. Delayed gratification is not valued in modern life.

Matrix

I see some people still like and watch The Karate Kid films

Well, I watched them once. One out of two ain’t bad I guess. The sequels were complete rubbish, and Ralph Macchio always looked like he’d wilt if exposed to direct sunlight.

I’ve been a longtime Musashi fan. In many ways I find him more human than many of his supposed peers. I personally find the Hagakure to be pure nihilism.

I don’t hold with he concept of invincible techniques, I believe that everything has a potential counter. If the other guy’s throwing the invincible technique, then you will ALWAYS lose, and I don’t want to entertain such thoughts. Still, I think your opinion here is a matter of personal philosophy as much as anything so I don’t argue with those who disagree.

We practice arm drags, duckunders, clinching, throws in chi sao. I can point to applications of the forms which include these or their setups, so I don’t believe any WC principles are being violated. If I see an opening for a shoot in chi sao I’ll take it, bit it’s pretty rare unless you are working with a rank beginner and is generally best setup with fakes or strikes anyway.

I understand my si-hing, Alfredo del-Brocco, will be publishing an article in Australian MA media on this very subject in the near future.

anerlich.

I guess you are practicing wearing a gi?..I am not juging your school or thinking bad about it but,if you are doing a shoot in chi sau or a similar BJJ move,I wonder what will happen to the more hard or delicate wing chun motions in the long run! What is the use of mastering precise and sometimes elusive timings and line of attack when all you have to do is jump into the other guy legs?..I don’t doupt the effectiveness of this mixed style a second but I’m affraid that after a while, wing chun will not be a big part of it.Nobody can argue about the fact that BJJ is a lot more easy and fast to learn and to be effective in. I think that your school (I see by the links in planetwingchun that there are quite a few!)is creating a new style in fact! Nothing wrong it that!..Now let’s see how the Wing Chun part of it will do.

OJ,

What you are saying is fair comment IMO.

I agree that only time will tell where each instructor and organisation will take Wing Chun, and how good or useful it is, both for the elite, and the average student wanting to learn to look after themselves and their families/tribes/whatever.

From my point of view, while the future of my and my Sifu’s MA is somewhat unclear (and isn’t it always, and isn’t certainty boring?), moving into it is very exciting.

cheers

AN

Fair enough observations by OJ and Anerlich on the current state of affairs.

I’m happy about this level of discussion anerlich! All the best to you and your Si-Fu’s school.:slight_smile:

Hey…whats going on?? Everyone seems to be agreeing and being curtious to each other, can we now get back to linage wars or somthing? Ok i’ll start, Tsui Seung Tin linage is Superiour!!!:wink: :wink:

:smiley: :smiley:

KJ - Good stuff, but please don’t tell me you’re wandering the streets of Penfield (sp?), shrouded in a non-descript cloak, woven hat shielding you from the sun, and Baat Jaam Do at the ready, fretting no longer either life or death… 8P

OJ - If people were so concerned about complete and pure a century and a half ago, we might not even have Wing Chun Kuen today.

AD - Clearly a modern retelling of the classic. Still, Morita made a strange Ng Mui and Machio an even stranger Yim Wing-Chun.

AN - We live in interesting time.

Rgds,

RR

Originally posted by reneritchie
KJ - Good stuff, but please don’t tell me you’re wandering the streets of Penfield (sp?), shrouded in a non-descript cloak, woven hat shielding you from the sun, and Baat Jaam Do at the ready, fretting no longer either life or death… 8P

Of course not. That would be far too conspicuous.