who did william cheung train under and for howe long .. and how the did he become a grandmaster?
actually more important who gave him the title of grandmaster, himself??
curious .. thanks
-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-
Read his profile on his website:
http://www.cheungswingchun.com/WWCKFAindex.html
You must be new to the Wing Chun community.
Welcome !
“Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!” - Dumb and Dumber
that still doesnt tell me who gave him the label grandmaster
-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-
I was training with William Cheung few years ago. But, Honestly, he is not as good as what he claims so “good”.
I’m a bit disappointted.
hi troy you live in newcastle, with all the cheap airfares right now, why dont you go down and ask him yourself, you obvioulsy have an issue with him being a grandmaster.
freestyle just because he doesn’t appear to be good to you doesn’t mean he isn’t and wasn’t.
just to clarify i don’t train wing chun, but i do know people who where from choi li fut in hong kong when the shite was going on there in the early days , and they never questioned his abilities.
the wing chun i am familiar with is from fut shan.
i will say though i met bill cheung when he first went to australia in the early 70’s he was then and is still now a polite man.
you may question his ideolgies, but credit should be given where creditis due.
I hope so…
but i think good sifu should, at all time, show peoeple his strength. Not a good excuse to pretend to be weak.
free style,
as you said cheungs weak. can you share your traning under cheung with us?
base on what i know from some friends have been with cheung for few years, cheung has his ways to teach his students and it all depends on if he likes you or not, it would make it day or night.
would it be the case between cheung and you. just curious and no disrepect to you.
i am not a student of cheung, but i do have some respect for him more than many other armchair grandmasters.
Netfist
Several questions:
Has Cheung helped spread WC?
Has he added something of value to WC?
Has he hurt WC causing it to collapse and lose practioners?
If the guy has weak technique share what it is, how it is weak and how yours is more powerfull.
Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it’s hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L’Amour
Curiosity killed the cat
Considering the amount of supposed ‘Grandmasters’ (Grandmaster Simon, anyone?) around, perhaps someone could also answer how it is that people who create their own style can constantly give themselves higher ranks? If you create your own style, and you’re 5th dan, how exactly do you progress to 6th dan? Is there some sort of international group that does this? Or could I, right now, claim myself to be a Grandmaster and demand instant respect because of it? The title itself suggests a single person - was it given to another person while Yip Man was alive by any person of authority on the matter? If all the supposed current Grandmasters get together for dinner, who gets the most respect? Personally, I thought that someone bearing the title was recognised by the whole WC community as significantly contributing to WC. I don’t recall hearing of Cheung ever doing something as great as this? 
bean curd - being polite does not make you a grandmaster, or a nice guy. Or a bad guy. It makes you polite. And yes, I too have heard that Cheung was quite good.. when he was a teenager. Whether or not his skill progressed to a sufficient level after that is another matter. It amuses me that you would defend someone who commands your respect due to politeness. I like to consider myself polite, if I call myself Grandmaster would you defend me by attacking someone who asks a genuine question also? 
rogue - The issue here is not with a particular technique of Cheungs, but his skill as a whole - hence the question regarding his title. Cheungs ‘traditional’ WC may certainly have exposed WC to the public more, but as to whether or not he has added something of value comes down to whether or not you believe that Yip Man deliberately deceived his family, his senior students and their students in order to pass on the ‘real’ WC to a youngster under the moonlit stars. If you do, aside from insulting a man that stood for integrity and honesty, you believe Cheung was willing to teach this ‘secret’ part of WC to the common folk, thereby contributing to ‘TWC’. If you consider that people may well believe this story, then ‘Modified’ WC does suffer due to people thinking it doesn’t have all the correct footwork, and leading to them going elsewhere to pursue a school that does.
I was actually content to continue lurking, but I thought Troy’s question was being treated as an attack on Cheung himself, rather than a genuine inquiry.. just thought I’d redirect it back to the original topic 
Apologies to those I offend, I intend no disrespect to those who deserve their titles.
i dont get the “maybe he just looked bad to you”
a grandmaster should be exalted for anything you do. do you think anyone watched yip man doing ving tsun and went"that looks pretty shitty". i dont think so.
but thats omo
GRANDMASTER BENNY
as rill pointed out, my question in regards to william cheung was not an attack.. i didnt say i ahd a problem with william cheung i didnt put his him his lineage or his students down.. i am just curious
dont be so defensive about everything we are all here to learn
-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-
Hey Troy,
Who gave Yip Man the title of GrandMaster .
Who gave his other predecessorss their titles.
I think a grandmaster is someone who has taught
a lot of people to be sifus, AND someone who
is respected by all these people ( not including
outsiders).
As far as I have experienced, people will not
respect your kung fu abilities unless they know
you can kick their ass really bad, or have experienced you kicking their ass really bad.
William Cheung has proven himself to a lot of people in the past, and doesnt need to prove himself to newbies or outsiders.
“Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!” - Dumb and Dumber
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Who gave Yip Man the title of GrandMaster[/quote]
I believe his students and the rest of the Kung Fu world called him Grandmaster & thought of him as such.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Who gave his other predecessorss their titles. [/quote]
I’ve never heard Leung Jan, Chan Wah Shun, etc. referred to as grandmasters.
“Grandmaster”= Chief Executive Officer of a big business. It also puts those who use it as a title up on a pedestal and, I’m sure gratifies the ol’ ego. Let’s hope that when most of Yip Man’s students finally die the GM title will die with them but I guess one of their students will proclaim himself as GM then and the cycle will start all over again. Also, Sin The’ & Sijo are respected by their students as well but by not “outsiders” so I don’t see any valid argument there. In fact the fact that you consider other WC practioners “outsiders” is pretty sad. Maybe if Cheung, Lueng, etc. and their students would worry more about the art of Wing Chun and making it work in the modern world instead of this constant bickering we could earn some respect in the martial arts community.
“Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao”
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.
[This message was edited by BeiKongHui on 05-16-01 at 07:37 AM.]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> Maybe if Cheung, Lueng, etc. and their students would worry more about the art of Wing Chun and making it work in the modern world instead of this constant bickering we could earn some respect in the martial arts community.
[/quote]
Is there really that much bickering at the top? I attended a Ho Kam Ming seminar a couple of years ago and he said they all teach Wing Chun. They may teach it differently, but as long as they are true to Wing Chun principles, it is still Wing Chun and that is O.K. I was also led to believe that that is pretty much the feeling of the other Yip Man students. And every lineage imaginable was represented at the seminar. We all worked together and all benefited. Also, in our school we are encouraged to attend seminars from any of Yip Man’s students. Even though we are of the Ho Kam Ming lineage, one of our students has attend 4 William Cheung seminars. My Sifu encourages this and the student has only good things to say about the seminars. Personally, I think people are making too much out of too little. There is a lot of good stuff out there and really good people that won’t be arround forever. So get what you can when every you can from who ever you can
Back to the Topic
I am new to Wing Chun as well as Martial Arts, and learning more and more on a daily basis.
Not to cause any static, but if someone really
knows (not speculation). Could they answer the
orginal question of how one becomes a “GrandMaster”?
Thanks
Most of the time sifus give themselves the title of grandmaster.
Self Annointed
Really! I could state my opinion on that, but
to be completely honest, I’m not interested in
the politics. I have more pressing matters, like
finding a good school.
Rob
To Grand Master or not Grand Master, is that the question?
To be a “master” of something has a connontation of finality. There is no term in Chinese that matches the English word “Master”. As far as I’ve studied into Chinese language, there is no term that is equal to Grand Master. In Chinese thought, there is never an end to anything - everything cycles through different states. When do you master a punch? Can you always make it better?
Sifu means either teacher/father (traditional) or just teacher (People’s Republic of China). Daai Si means great teacher, but does not literally mean master. I’ve seen Jung Si translated as Grand Master but it actually means clan leader/teacher. I suppose it comes down to how you mean Master. I’ve heard that a Sifu is one who walks the same path and they’re just a little farther ahead.
Yip Man never referred to himself as a Grand Master - it was his students that made that proclamation.
There are terms to denote great skill that are often used for high level practitioners of a discipline, but those translate closer to specialist rather than Master.
From what I’ve seen in the modern martial arts world, if you are a Sifu and you teach a student to Sifu level, you could call yourself a Master. If you student teaches a student to Sifu level, your student becomes a Master and you become a Grand Master. I was at a recent Hall of Fame awards banquet and I met a great many Grand Masters, most of which had been studying martial arts for 10-15 years. That’s pretty close the time needed to become a PhD - but who does the grading and promoting? As a general rule, martial art instruction is a rather large hodge-podge of standards and quality.
Of course, there is also the case of people who learn a few arts, throw it together, and call it a new art - making them the Si Jo, the founder of the style. And there are people looking to promote themselves any way they can to make $$$.
Martial arts is an interesting place.
… opportunityisnowhere…
… was that no where…
…or now here…
finding a school
RobO
Finding a good school is a job unto itself.
If you can, drive by and visit the top choices on your list and talk to the instructors and/or top students. If they are not open to visitors, go elsewhere.
If you have already been studying, you’ll pick up on the atmosphere of the place right away. If you are new to martial arts, all I can say is go with your gut feeling.
Try to make your decision alone, away from the school and everyone else. Some places use very high pressure tactics, stay away from those. A good instructor will honor your choice to make a decision on your own.
If a sifu is good, people will seek him/her out. Try to find out who and where that sifu is.
Good luck, you have your work cut out for you.
“We forge our bodies in
the fire of our will.” Han
from ‘Enter the Dragon’
rill,
mo duk is an important part of gung fu, so lets not play games with foolish words, to prove a point.
if you know what mo duk means, and i am sure you do, then you know where i was coming from.
as to amusing you, glad i brought a smile to your face, thats nice to know, but again if you read what i wrote, i spoke first and foremost on the incidents of hong kong in the 50’s/60’s, since you are a player in wing chun, then you would be more than knowledgable of what happened.
as for bill using the words “grand master”,is it him ? or those who talk about?write about him .
in general these terms are used “inside the family”.
one would need to look at “who” wrote the articles, if they where students etc, to understand why they call him the way they do.
if your sifu’s sifu taught you for awhile, then how would you address him??? if your sifu’s sifu’s father taught you for awhile how would you address him???
in earlier days, no one could call themselves a “sifu” as such by their own accord, it had to be given to them by there peers, sad to say but true, in this day and age things have changed greatly!!