Originally posted by PaulH
Could you provide some WCK kuits or whatever past evidences that further support this view?
Regards,
PH
There are plenty of WCK Kiuts being post in this forum before. you can check into them.
and since you are from GM YM’s line.
You can check with GM TST to see how his capability even at his old age support the WCK view.
With regards to the Judo fighter and Wang!
To spread the newly- emerging routine far and wide, Wang recruited a large number of youngsters and gave them lessons personally. His aim was very clear and that was to help boost the morale of the Chinese people and counter foreign pugilism. He issued a statement in a local newspaper and declared that he was ready to take on any rivals including those coming from foreign countries. Wang’s remark angered Kenichi Sawai, a Japanese martial artist then living in Beijing. Sawai was good at karate, swordplay and judo. In his eyes, Chinese wushu was only something like gymnastics, having little value in actual fights. So, one day, he went to call at Wang’s in the hope of showing off his prowess. When he saw Wang Xiangzhai, he found that the Chinese shadow boxer, a man of middle stature clad in long gown, looked very gentle and suave. He was very happy to meet with such a weakling, thinking that he would win without fail. After introducing himself and explaining why he had come, he produced a newspaper which carried Wang’s statement and tossed it on a table. “You are ready to have a dual fight, aren’t you?” asked the Japanese karate practitioner, his face wreathed in contemptuous smiles. “Yes, I am,” retorted sneeringly my instructor. “I always mean what I have said. I would never refuse anyone who wants to compete with me. Foreign martial artists are especially welcome.” Hearing that, Sawai went out of the drawing room and stood in the courtyard waiting for a duel. Without any hesitation, Wang came out with hands placed behind his back. Directing his strength to both hands through concentration, Sawai assumed a horse-riding stance and launched a sudden attack on Wang’s face with hands. Seeing this, my instructor, his left hand remaining still, extended his right forearm to parry Sawai’s hands. Then, with a slight exertion of strength, Wang threw the Japanese muscle man 10 feet away. Before realizing what had happened, Sawai was already Lying on the ground on his back. Not admitting defeat, Sawai wanted to have a swordplay contest with Wang because he was so skilled at it that he could cut an apple on the head of a man into two without hurting the head. Considering that Sawai should get an idea of what Chinese swordplay was, Wang agreed to have another contest. With a sword held overhead in his hands, Sawai delivered a hard blow at Wang’s head. Wang stepped a bit to the right and wielded his sword to block the opposing sword. As the two swords clanked, Sawai was also thrown several feet away and flattened with his palms benumbed. (According to the son of Sawai, they did not fight with swords but with sticks.) Irreconciled, Sawai rose to his feet and pounced upon Wang with his sword towards the throat. This skill is very famous in Japanese swordplay, with which one can catch his rival off guard. However, Wang was so good at Chinese swordplay that it seemed as if he did not make use of eyes but sense only in a fight. Wang turned his body to the right slightly, leaving Sawai’s attack wide of the mark. In another instant, Wang pressed his sword against his opponent’s. Sawai tried hard to draw his sword back, only to no avail, since it was “pasted” fast to Wang’s at the guard of the hilt. When Wang mustered up his strength, Sawai was flung out and slammed against a nearby door which caved in as a result. Later on, Sawai engaged Wang in a qinna-something like judo- contest. By then, he was already a 5 - dan judoka in Japan. However, he could never get hold of Wang by the sleeve or the front in competition, no matter how hard he tried. Instead, he was grasped by Wang as soon as they came to grips.
Anerlich-
Ran into a kung fu brother last night who is actually taking yoga down the street from where I live. He told me its all run by 4 gorgeous girls. I think I might check it out ha ha ha. I got a flyer for their yoga classes on my fridge!
I started this thread just wondering why Wing Chun is the most popular chinese art. I know its effective, just curious if you think its the most popular due to its effectivenss or the Bruce Lee tag? Or it might be its easier to say in English. Im not sure. Just thought Id pick your brains for opinions.
One of my too few female students was in yoga before.She can do the “Trinity scorpion kick”!..My god!..:rolleyes: …
Oups! sorry!..I was daydreaming!..
Bruce who?..
I guess it is popular because it is easier to practice thanKalaripayattu!.. 
Okay, sorry for hijacking your thread KarmaFire. I just like being a kid sometimes and I am girl crazy, sorry.
I have studied a few martial arts before I ever even knew what wing chun kuen was. A friend of a friend had just gotten certified to teach wing chun and I was interested in getting back into the martial arts. I remember my first day, I was told my shoulders were going to be my biggest deamons (and they still are ha ha ha sometimes).
My first sifu (wing chun) was a very open minded very talented martial artists and knew a lot about lots of systems. He would have open discussion with me before and after class. I would try to compare my okinawan karate training to wing chun all the time and asked him about practical application of techniques with wing chun training.
What attracted me so much was the structure and idea behind wing chun. You are not relying on strength, size, or any other physical attributes. You are fighting smarter than your opponet. However, even though WCK does not rely on such physical attributes it will definately take advantage of them if you got them. So, I am not saying you do not need to be in good physical shape, because I believe if you want to be a good martial artist you will be in good physical shape.
Then comes in the idea behind it, sticking, trapping, pressurizing, forward motions, center line theory.
Now, I train with my sifu’s sifu (my sigung) because he had to move. Wing chun is a great martial art, just very few really understand how to fully utilize it I think.
Many years ago a friend of mine looking for a good M.A. school walked into Bucksam Kong’s Tiger and Crane kwoon in Hollywood? and asked this Sifu’s opinion of WC as a fighting system. The man just laughed and said that it is for women! There you have it - the woman and the enduring myth-like story of a female warrior who beat soundly a brute by sheer KF skills and grace. Whatever you may think of Wing Chun as a real historical figure or not, she will always have her unique place in all beanies’ dream against the encrouching bullies of the universe! Ha! Ha!
Just my bean,
PBS
Originally posted by Phenix
[B]
And the record from Yee Chuan recorded:
1940, 6th Dan Judoka , ¤K¥Ð¤@_? who had represented Japan to participate in the 11th Olympic international wrestling competition in 1936; He challenged WXZ . He graps WXZ’s wrist to attack. however, at the instant of contact, he was shocked elivated over ground and bounce toward the wall behind him, then fall to the ground.
Someone wants to check the record of Japanese 1936 olympic paticipant to verify this account? It will be great to find out if WXZ’s people lying. 
[/B]
“Mizutani, Mitsuzo” was the only Japanese wrestler in the 1936 games according to the wrestling database.
Can’t read that “¤K¥Ð¤@_?” to see if it seems the same.
Someone else will have to check that.
Frankly the “elevated over the ground and bounced off a wall” from touching WXZ’s wrist sounds like a complete fairytale anyway.
Originally posted by Edmund
[B]
“Mizutani, Mitsuzo” was the only Japanese wrestler in the 1936 games according to the wrestling database.
Can’t read that “¤K¥Ð¤@_?” to see if it seems the same.
Someone else will have to check that.
Frankly the “elevated over the ground and bounced off a wall” from touching WXZ’s wrist sounds like a complete fairytale anyway. [/B]
** Hendrik is out of town at the moment, he asks me to post this for him **
Seems that there is only one
¤K¥Ð¤@¦.
The one return to Japan with Ali’s challange message too.
http://pro-wrestling.idv.tw/pulolesu/history/inokivsali/inokivsali1.html
Certainly, one can believe what one wants on Wang’s capablity. Wang beat
the judoka was a fact.
As for the capability of Yi Chuan. Well, let see Who also study Yi Chuan.
http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/search.php?substring=sawai
Originally posted by yylee
[B]
Certainly, one can believe what one wants on Wang’s capablity. Wang beat the judoka was a fact.
[/B]
One can believe all sorts of stories because they want to.
Beat the judoka?
Your story was he sent him flying with a touch.
By inference, he must be great and his martial art must be also super as opposed to judo which was bounced like a ping pong ball.
Turns out that story is full of holes.
And then another one from Jim for good laugh or cry:
“With a sword held overhead in his hands, Sawai delivered a hard blow at Wang’s head. Wang stepped a bit to the right and wielded his sword to block the opposing sword. As the two swords clanked, Sawai was also thrown several feet away and flattened with his palms benumbed.”
They just don’t know how to tell a good yarn these days. It will become “several meters away” the next time it’s told.
It probably was originally “several inches”.
What’s even funnier is people trying to emulate the stories.
I don’t think anyone’s really disputing that this guy beat a badass wrestler, judoka, whatever you want to call him.
The hyperbolic language and recounting of the physically improbable as fact are what is being contested here. I’ll wait for the video before I believe any of this claptrap.
Also, Hendrik’s reputed historical expertise takes a hammering when he misses details like “Olympic judoka.”
Oh, and (obviously) Yi Chuan and WC are different.
My bet? Sakuraba would have Mongolian chopped and cartwheel guard passed this guy into oblivion. Since he’s not around I can say or make up just about whatever I like about him, as the writers of these “historical accounts” apparently did. His followers should enter the UFC and Pride and show us all, like Spiderman!
WTF does Ali v Inoki have to do with this? Just another Hendrik red herring to avoid dealing with the usual huge holes in his previous arguments?
Originally posted by Edmund
[B]
Turns out that story is full of holes.
. [/B]
one is free to choose to ignore the facts and direct the attention to stories holes…etc
The facts remain:
WXZ beat two judoka including Sawai effortlessly. among with other matiar artist including a world class boxer from hungary, Inga (sp?). seems that there was an article written by Inga after his defeat, post in Britist’ newpaper title : The chinese martial technology which I hve seen".
MAs Oyama the Founder of Kyokushin also study Yee Chuan with Sawai.
Mas Oyama has more then 100 match and never lost…
Originally posted by anerlich
[B] Hendrik’s reputed historical expertise takes a hammering when he misses details like “Olympic judoka.”
Oh, and (obviously) Yi Chuan and WC are different.
[/B]
hahahaha. I never said Hendrik is the god of history who is 120% correct .
Sorry, I am wrong in phrasing the word if you like to nail me.
ok it should be " 6 dan judoka who compete in the 1936’s olympic’s wrestling who later brought Ali’s message back to Japan … " in stead of just “olympic judoka”
Yes, WXZ beat that 6 Dan in Judo japanese 1936 olympic wrestling competetor in 1940.
See, not everyone has to learn grappling to beat grappling.
but you are wrong obviously about WCK and Yi Chuan.
Let’s starts counting the similarities of these Chinese Martail arts system: the principle of centerline theory, White Crane’s of FUjian’s influence on Yee Chuan and WCK, energy issuing… , Yee of WXZ and Nim Lik /lap nim of YM (TST)…
The list can go very long Bro.
Ofcorse I can be dead wrong but reading your post, you give me an impression of
You seem to not believe Chinese Martial art isnt it? be it Yee Chuan, WXZ, or WCK?
Ofcorse I can be wrong about the impression your post give me.
"Ofcorse I can be dead wrong but reading your post, you give me an impression of
You seem to not believe Chinese Martial art isnt it? be it Yee Chuan, WXZ, or WCK? "
I might be able to respond to that if it were syntactically valid or actually meant anything intelligible.
Originally posted by anerlich
[B]"Ofcorse I can be dead wrong but reading your post, you give me an impression of
You seem to not believe Chinese Martial art isnt it? be it Yee Chuan, WXZ, or WCK? "
I might be able to respond to that if it were syntactically valid or actually meant anything intelligible. [/B]
Hahahha,
let’s get back to the topic after all these questioning at WXZ and Yee Chuan in a very intelligent way.
someone wants to continous on
counting the similarities of these two Chinese Martail arts system:
the principle of centerline theory,
White Crane’s of FUjian’s influence on Yee Chuan and WCK, energy issuing such as the nail and hammer? (what is the similarity and different with the nail and hammer analogy between WCK and Yee Chuan’s nail and hammer on pg 49(i think ) of Yau’s book)… ,
Yee of WXZ and Nim Lik /lap nim of YM (TST)…
Ha ha ha.
“One is free to choose to ignore the facts”
Who’s ignoring the facts?
You seem to add and subtract “facts” to make your point.
Some of your facts turn out not to be too factual at all.
“See, not everyone has to learn grappling to beat grappling.”
Yeah! That chi blast method of WXZ is completely valid!
When they touch your wrist you just fling them in the air.
Is that a fact?
One is free to choose to ignore the facts
What, like WC purists getting ripped to shreds in modern MMA?
Yes, one is apparently free to ignore the “facts”, or as demonstrated admirably by yourself, to use “facts” selectively, or to treat hagiographic exaggeration as “facts”.
Hendrik:
“Yes, WXZ beat that 6 Dan in Judo japanese 1936 olympic wrestling competetor in 1940.
See, not everyone has to learn grappling to beat grappling.”
Man…Hendrik…you really need to grow up. You are having a seriously hard time accepting the fact that there are other martial arts out there that can beat your wing chun/kyokushin, etc…
By grappling you. That can beat CMA in general…by grappling.
You are CONSTANTLY engaging in a game of denial about non-Chinese arts that really can do something well…
Grapple.
Grapple.
Grapple.
Get over it. Stop kidding yourself. Stop trying to kid everybody else. And learn how to…
GRAPPLE…CATCH-AS-CATCH-CAN WRESTLE…BRAZILIAN JU JITSU…SAMBO…GRECO-ROMAN WRESTLE…MONGOLIAN WRESTLE.
AH…now there’s one for you - it’s close to home!
Mongolian Wrestling. Take it up! Have faith in yourself! You can do it!
You know, WXZ probably did some pretty good techniques to beat those guys. e.g. A quick fan kum na (grab counter) or something.
But thanks to “Chinese whispers” no one will know what actually happened and some won’t even believe it happened at all.
