Why Wing Chun Fails?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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1

Thought I’d share a video on Why Wing Chun fails… also, promoting my brand new Kirin Rise Wing Chun Online University.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSLl4nvWvWc&feature=youtu.be

Join the Kirin Rise Wing Chun University.

The first 50 people who sign up for $25 gets all of this for 6 months.
Anyone after 50 must pay $50 for 6 months into the site and will receive an ebook of Kirin Rise.

  1. Paper Back of Kirin Rise The Cast of Shadows/autographed
  2. Access to the Kirin Rise Online University
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/kirin…
  3. Learn the complete art online
  4. Brand new videos and articles updated on a regular basis
  5. Learn the art as well as learn to teach the art
  6. Full 1st level Curriculum
  7. Personalized written or online video help with their Wing Chun problems and how to fix it.

How to Pay
http://www.kirinrise.com/book-order-p…

Any questions, please contact Ed Cruz at info@kirinrise.com

2

Hi Ed,

I always enjoyed your approach & showmanship in your clips (even if I didn’t always agree with what you might have been doing).
But I’m having a few issues with this clip.

  1. I didn’t really understand your premise on why you think WC fails or is dying. Not that I don’t disagree that it may be happening, I don’t see any issue with making my WC work and didn’t quite grasp your example about a fight vs sparring, and techniques or whatever you were trying to say. And when you too quickly switched over the the ‘sales pitch’, I was a bit lost at that point.

  2. While I applaud your efforts to ‘keep the art alive’, I think your marketing ploy and teaching via on-line will have an exact opposite effect and only contributes to the problem in the end. One issue I see with why WC might be getting watered down, changing, misunderstood, whatever is when money/quantity becomes the goal vs. quality. And as I see it, while you can get a ‘general’ idea of the art via online learning, you can NOT preserve quality - this can ONLY be done via Hou Chun San Sau, face-to-face, hands-on teaching & learning. You simply cannot pass on the art in this fashion and quality will suffer, so in the end you will only add to the problem you are trying to fix.

And, while I am not saying your post here is fully money-driven (as I believe your heart is in the right place), this does seem to be one of the primary driving factors. I really think you’re heading down a rabbit hole on this one…
Cool book idea though!

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  1. I didn’t really understand your premise on why you think WC fails or is dying. Not that I don’t disagree that it may be happening, I don’t see any issue with making my WC work and didn’t quite grasp your example about a fight vs sparring, and techniques or whatever you were trying to say. And when you too quickly switched over the the ‘sales pitch’, I was a bit lost at that point.

People train wing chun to spar, it’s totally different from self-defense concept… Sparring gives you time to setup, while self-defense can happen out of the blue…

  1. While I applaud your efforts to ‘keep the art alive’, I think your marketing ploy and teaching via on-line will have an exact opposite effect and only contributes to the problem in the end. One issue I see with why WC might be getting watered down, changing, misunderstood, whatever is when money/quantity becomes the goal vs. quality. And as I see it, while you can get a ‘general’ idea of the art via online learning, you can NOT preserve quality - this can ONLY be done via Hou Chun San Sau, face-to-face, hands-on teaching & learning. You simply cannot pass on the art in this fashion and quality will suffer, so in the end you will only add to the problem you are trying to fix.

Well, I believe what people are doing now is just destroying it, so I’m looking to find another way… And yes, I do agree you need hand contact, I believe coordination wise you can fully achieve a high level with proper instruction.

And, while I am not saying your post here is fully money-driven (as I believe your heart is in the right place), this does seem to be one of the primary driving factors. I really think you’re heading down a rabbit hole on this one…

8 years of giving more information out for FREE than any dvd being sold, or channel out there on the art… and this is now money driven?

Anyway, it was good hearing from you about this.

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[QUOTE=edward;1286794]People train wing chun to spar, it’s totally different from self-defense concept… Sparring gives you time to setup, while self-defense can happen out of the blue…[/QUOTE]

You seem pretty genuine, so hopefully my responses don’t come off the wrong way, but we must have very different understanding of WC then, as it’s very much for combat/fighting. Sparring is just one aspect of testing your art under various levels of pressure, it’s not big deal really and I don’t think it’s killing the art. If anything, it’s an attempt to make it stronger. But sparring aside, in any good WC lineage training for the ‘fight’ is top priority - at least, in the lineages I’ve studied. And, I hear what you’re saying and it is possible you are right in some cases, but is it also possible you may be solving a problem that doesn’t totally exist as prominently as your’e suggesting? (to push a product)

Serious question, how can you realistically guarantee to someone that is paying you money for your online classes that they are ready for a real life scenario if you’ve never given them pressure testing or even touched their hands? By watching them? Without sparring/pressure testing, how does one even know they are prepared for a real life self defense situation? I really hope you aren’t suggesting you can impart & test that kind of skill by watching a clip of them doing drills and/or forms..

[QUOTE=edward;1286794]Well, I believe what people are doing now is just destroying it, so I’m looking to find another way… [/QUOTE]

Fair enough. What specifically is it you think people are doing doing that is destroying it? Is it just sparring, or something else?

[QUOTE=edward;1286794]And yes, I do agree you need hand contact, I believe coordination wise you can fully achieve a high level with proper instruction.[/QUOTE]

Without hands-on demonstration, feedback and correction throughout the skill development process, the real essence of WC is lost, not preserved. Period

[QUOTE=edward;1286794]8 years of giving more information out for FREE than any dvd being sold, or channel out there on the art… and this is now money driven?[/QUOTE]

Nothing wrong with making money for your time :slight_smile: I just see a disconnect in the issue you’ve identified and your chosen solution.

[QUOTE=edward;1286794]Anyway, it was good hearing from you about this.[/QUOTE]

NP, good luck!

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All Wing Chun doesn’t fail. We test our Wing Chun in full contact events and some guys I know have used their Wing Chun in the streets and as bouncers.

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Hi Ed. This is a GREAT idea. I wish you every success. Think about all those people around the country, the world even that do not have access to any other level of instruction but that which is in the area they live. You will be able to help them.

So, WC people have Alan for full contact and Ed for self defense. Not that either individual will not have any cross over but as Phil Redmond pointed out some do learn it to spar or full contact if you will.

Ed, you may upset your WC brothers and sister because certain groups my take offense because they believe and maybe rightly so, that they can fight, spar, self defense and everything else with the best of them. All I can add to any of you people is you are not Ed’s market. Not that he has nothing to offer in the way of value to you but his market is for guys that for one reason or another can not move beyond the level of their instructor and all arts have different levels of guys teaching or maybe their focus is just on other aspects of the art.

Guys that can not make travel and study a way of life yet want , need even more than they are getting or for teacher, able to teach.

We live in a different world now. This idea of keeping secrets , don’t share. You have to test the student 15 years before he is worthy is crap. If WC is dead, then I suggest the TEACHERS KILLED IT. Don’t want little Tan Lo ( Billy in todays world more often than not. ) kicking my ass and all that crap.

Do your part to bring it back however you can ED. It is obviously such an important aspect of your life. SHARE IT DUDE ! Share what you can. And there is nothing wrong with asking for money. EVERYONE DOES ! It is also your job.

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Just a thought. This idea that he may do this for money, etc. Well sure and so does every teacher for whatever they teach. I wonder if part of the reason it takes years to learn very little beyond basics was perhaps, in part at least, motivated by money, hmm??? Keep the hangers on , hanging on. After all, it may have happened to some that teach . I spent 50 grand over such amount of years and I expect the same. But by the time the guys are ready, teacher DIES. And so does the art. BRILLANT PLAN !

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Good luck with it.

I don’t accept your premise that Wing Chun is dying, or that no one else does it in a self defense rather than sparring framework, and, though you didn’t say this outright, that learning other arts beside it will necessarily lead to bad Wing Chun. For example my WC instructor has a brown belt in BJJ and I have a black belt, and I don’t think our Wing Chun has suffered. Rather the reverse, and to a large degree.

The self defense field is pretty heavily populated these days with some pretty smart people … Geoff Thompson, Tim Larkin, Marc MacYoung, Tony Blauer (though he’s got a bit weird with the CrossFit self defense), …

Presumably you’re studying these guys and what they’re doing. If you’re not at least incorporating Geoff Thompson’s concept of the fence or something similar …

Sanford Strong’s “Strong on Defense”, written by someone who should know, argues that martial skill is one of the least important attributes in self defense.

Most people that have been around the block a few times with Wing Chun have considered these issues deeply. You might want to take a look at my “Surviving Violent Crime” link below. I write it about 15 years ago, so parts of it are probably dated.

My pet peeve with WC is the “everyone else that does WC except my instructor and me and my friends know nothing” purveyors. People that think that the way to the top of the heap is by pushing others down. Not accusing anybody (well OK, Hendrik Santo), just sayin’.

Good luck. I will not be a customer, I’m sorry to say. Too many Jiu Jitsu vids to get through.

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1286800]All Wing Chun doesn’t fail. We test our Wing Chun in full contact events and some guys I know have used their Wing Chun in the streets and as bouncers.[/QUOTE]

Glad to hear this Phil…

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[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1286801]Hi Ed. This is a GREAT idea. I wish you every success. Think about all those people around the country, the world even that do not have access to any other level of instruction but that which is in the area they live. You will be able to help them.

2 students from far distance convinced me over the years it was possible… In the beginning, I was against it, but they proved me wrong from simply learning from my videos.. that’s why I finally went through with this.

So, WC people have Alan for full contact and Ed for self defense. Not that either individual will not have any cross over but as Phil Redmond pointed out some do learn it to spar or full contact if you will.

It’s peoples choice…

Ed, you may upset your WC brothers and sister because certain groups my take offense because they believe and maybe rightly so, that they can fight, spar, self defense and everything else with the best of them. All I can add to any of you people is you are not Ed’s market. Not that he has nothing to offer in the way of value to you but his market is for guys that for one reason or another can not move beyond the level of their instructor and all arts have different levels of guys teaching or maybe their focus is just on other aspects of the art.

The Wing Chun community needs to stop *****ing and just train… I don’t get offended at all, if people say you should do this or that with Wing Chun… you know why, because I know why i do my wing chun and believe in it…

Guys that can not make travel and study a way of life yet want , need even more than they are getting or for teacher, able to teach.

We live in a different world now. This idea of keeping secrets , don’t share. You have to test the student 15 years before he is worthy is crap. If WC is dead, then I suggest the TEACHERS KILLED IT. Don’t want little Tan Lo ( Billy in todays world more often than not. ) kicking my ass and all that crap.

No such thing as secrets in Wing Chun, just teachers who make up secrets to scam people or students to lazy to dig deeper and learn.

Do your part to bring it back however you can ED. It is obviously such an important aspect of your life. SHARE IT DUDE ! Share what you can. And there is nothing wrong with asking for money. EVERYONE DOES ! It is also your job.[/QUOTE]

If it was about the money, I wouldn’t be asking for $25 bucks for the first 50 people and $50 for everyone afterwards… but I’ve come to learn if you give it away just free, people are lazy and don’t train at all… That’s why I decided to do it that way…

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[QUOTE=edward;1286805]… but I’ve come to learn if you give it away just free, people are lazy and don’t train at all… That’s why I decided to do it that way…[/QUOTE]

This has been my observation as well. Teaching is a service, whether that involves teaching a martial art, academics, a trade, or anything else. Nobody expects any other type of teacher to teach for free, but for some reason, many feel that a martial arts instructor should not charge money for his services. OTOH, if you do offer to teach for free, nobody will take you seriously. If you don’t place a monetary value on your art, prospective students won’t value it either. Also, if you’re doing it right, teaching is work and requires your time and energy, and also involves expenses, like any other business.

In Taiwan, my Northern Mantis teacher told me that when he was starting to teach, he offered to teach his first students for free so he could develop a foundation of senior students for his school. After a year or so, he would begin charging any newer students, but the original students would always be taught for free. Guess what happened? Nobody took it seriously; nobody worked hard or showed up consistently, even though he was a very good teacher. He got fed up and, after a year, he began charging, and not cheaply. Amazingly, he gained lots of students, and better-quality ones at that. One student who’d been taught for free but drifted away came back, but this time my teacher told him he’d have to pay now like everybody else. He gladly agreed, and even told my teacher that deep down he hadn’t valued the training when it was free.

My Mantis teacher wasn’t being a money-grubber. But he wanted to be a professional teacher, and he still had to eat, keep a roof over his head and meet all his other living expenses.

12

Systems don’t fail per say, training may fail, people fail, but a system is only as good as the person doing it and HOW he/she was trained.

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[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1286802]Just a thought. This idea that he may do this for money, etc. Well sure and so does every teacher for whatever they teach. I wonder if part of the reason it takes years to learn very little beyond basics was perhaps, in part at least, motivated by money, hmm??? Keep the hangers on , hanging on. After all, it may have happened to some that teach . I spent 50 grand over such amount of years and I expect the same. But by the time the guys are ready, teacher DIES. And so does the art. BRILLANT PLAN ![/QUOTE]

No offense (and if I understand what your saying correctly), if you spent 50 grand on your training and don’t feel you got what you paid for, you should take it up with your sifu (and possibly get a lawyer). But this isn’t the place to deal with it. Sounds like you’re pretty bitter (and maybe rightly so), but it was your choice to agree to that price.

TBH, from what you are saying here, I think you (and possibly Ed) may have a bit of a narrow view of WC in the world today. While I do agree that there are cases where it is getting watered down, but in my experience it doesn’t take ‘years to learn very little beyond the basics’. And it is far from ‘dying’. A good WC sifu should be able teach one to fight/defend themselves in a rather quick amount of time - that was the whole point of the art! And surely it shouldn’t take 15 years! Now, mastery of the system and getting to sifu level, that’s something else.

Honest questions: Do you think it is realistic to impart skill and full understanding of a MA without any face-to-face or hands-on training from the teacher? How long do you think it should take to do this where you didn’t see it happening face-to-face in 15 years time? And, do you think watching videos of students now-and-then is good enough QC to pass on the skill and depth of knowledge in the complete WC system?

14

Anerlich, Strong is a excellent source and he preaches the same stuff wise guys do. AVOIDENCE. He only recommends one tactic if for one reason or another physical confrontation can not be avoid. Attack the eyes. Nice to read you read him.

I think WC dead would be more area specific. As I stated, some guys are really not the market Ed should be trying to reach. And he will make people upset with that statement and for you and your area it may in fact be an untrue statement but it probably is not for more areas than not.

Ed , I know it is not just about the money. It would take 400 online students at 25 bucks or 200 at 50 to make 10 grand. After taxes you might make 6 grand. Anyone that works self employed know, you pay a lot more taxes than working for someone else. You do not have an employer kicking in half.

Now, I am unclear if you are keeping it at this for 6 months or if you will be charging per month, etc.

To be upfront, I also am not a customer. But, I still think this is a great idea and I believe you have to opportunity to educate those that want to be and have limited or no other means.

15

Really, more WC people should do this. No one knows it all but that does not mean you know nothing that will help all. Or perhaps, you explain and demo in a way that allows some to " get it " where all other instruction to that point leaves the student scratching their head.

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[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1286802]Just a thought. This idea that he may do this for money, etc. Well sure and so does every teacher for whatever they teach. I wonder if part of the reason it takes years to learn very little beyond basics was perhaps, in part at least, motivated by money, hmm??? Keep the hangers on , hanging on. After all, it may have happened to some that teach . I spent 50 grand over such amount of years and I expect the same. But by the time the guys are ready, teacher DIES. And so does the art. BRILLANT PLAN ![/QUOTE]

Sounds like you’re bitter over spending 50 grand on your training, and maybe rightly so if you didn’t get what you paid for (maybe you did, hard to tell what you’re saying here). But it was your choice to agree to that price. Not sure your point

TBH, from what you are saying here, I think you (and possibly Ed) may have a bit of a narrow view of WC in the world today. While I do agree that there are cases where it is getting watered down, in my experience it doesn’t take ‘years to learn very little beyond the basics’. And it is far from ‘dying’. A good WC sifu should be able teach one to fight/defend themselves in a rather quick amount of time - that was the whole point of the art! And surely it shouldn’t take 15 years! Now, mastery of the system and getting to sifu level, that’s something else… :slight_smile:

Honest question: Do you think it is realistically possible to impart skill and full understanding of a MA without any face-to-face or hands-on training from the teacher? How long do you think it should take to do this where you didn’t see it happening face-to-face in 15 years time? And, do you think watching videos of students now-and-then is good enough QC to pass on the skill and depth of knowledge in the complete WC system?

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1286816]Sounds like you’re pretty bitter over spending 50 gran on your training (and maybe rightly so if you didn’t get what you paid for - maybe you did), but it was your choice to agree to that price.

TBH, from what you are saying here, I think you (and possibly Ed) may have a bit of a narrow view of WC in the world today. While I do agree that there are cases where it is getting watered down, in my experience it doesn’t take ‘years to learn very little beyond the basics’. And it is far from ‘dying’. A good WC sifu should be able teach one to fight/defend themselves in a rather quick amount of time - that was the whole point of the art! And surely it shouldn’t take 15 years! Now, mastery of the system and getting to sifu level, that’s something else… :slight_smile:

Honest question: Do you think it is realistic to impart skill and full understanding of a MA without any face-to-face or hands-on training from the teacher? How long do you think it should take to do this where you didn’t see it happening face-to-face in 15 years time? And, do you think watching videos of students now-and-then is good enough QC to pass on the skill and depth of knowledge in the complete WC system?[/QUOTE]

No, I am not complaining about anything I spent. It was just a thought that perhaps the length of time to learn from some instructors is motivated by cash and getting as much as possible for as long as possible. Guys that may in fact be considered top dogs in their art. And, I suspect that may have happened 100 years ago as well. People are people and things sort of stay the same in many respect through the ages.

I’ll give my take on your last paragraph. You may be assuming that the online student has ZERO WC background and that may not be the case for maybe more than half that join. I’d suspect that maybe a third may have been studying for a couple of years. They should be able to ( hopefully) get and practice what is being taught. There is this idea that the only people who buy videos know nothing or never studied anything. I bet that’s 10 percent of the market. Perhaps a 1/4 of the guys that may sign up have no interest in learning WC but have seen Ed videos and liked certain ideas that they can incorporate into their methods.

I to do not think a raw person will get much out of videos aside form what one may consider tricks. That may be enough for them but it is doubtful they will progress very far video only and should have some of to a lot in person training in what they want to learn if possible for as far as they want to take it. What Ed is doing is giving his perspective and ideas and methods of training and how he understands it and I think that is brilliant and more of you should do it. I love the idea that he may make this more of self defense aspects of the art and how to use it that way. Not that he will not venture into other territories but that’s is a great place to focus. I have seen little self defense applications of WC that I would consider good usage. I have seen more fight videos and I love it when they are successful. I really feel that way about any art. All of them were meant to WORK !

18

Sorry, is sort of a passion of mine. If something goes wrong, WHY ? It is supposed to work more than not. When we see video after video of WC guys getting crushed , what is going wrong ? If they are all coming form one school in the videos then WHY ? One answer is the teacher is not very good ? And perhaps this teacher is considered well know and by all accounts , great at the art. Often we resort to the student was just not very good. Which is obviously so for what we see. Yet, if he believed that, I doubt he would have entered. He showed up thinking I can win with my WC. He believed it would work.

Again, I know wing chun can work. I have seen videos of inter style and they were successful at least 50% of the time. But this will be coming out of one school or area just like the ones that get crushed, come out of another school or area. One is doing something more correct and the other is not, at least for that aspect of the art. Competition. I do not agree with Ed that WC is self defense only. It may have begun that way but all arts have evolved into competing. That’s the evolution of fighting I think. Lets see who this does against that.

Hopefully I have explained myself more clearly. Ed can be providing things some student, schools or areas, just don’t understand well enough to make work.
I think he should be commended instead of questioned. He wants WC to be strong again. I want WC to be strong again all over and not just in certain spots.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1286816] And it is far from ‘dying’. A good WC sifu should be able teach one to fight/defend themselves in a rather quick amount of time - that was the whole point of the art! And surely it shouldn’t take 15 years! Now, mastery of the system and getting to sifu level, that’s something else… :slight_smile:

QUOTE]

I have to disagree with that and not just for WC but most arts across the board. Few teach a guy to fight in a very short period of time and only a few teach viable self defense in a short time either. Which I suggest is the number one reason students leave. They come to be taught and 3-6 months later they leave. Bad student ? Just does not have the heart ? Or maybe they did not get what they signed up for ?

I once watched a Isshin Ryu buddy get his ass handed him by another kid. He took a freaking cat stance because he was told it was a great stance to fight out of. Maybe ? Not this time ! He ditched Isshin Ryu after and all of it really. He was at least 6 months in and a green belt I think. He should have handled his own. Did not even land. Threw one crappy front kick out of that stance and got jabbed, nose bloodied, ripped to the ground and punched out. He was good at Isshin Ryu sparring though ! He QUIT ! Later became a cop and a real badass on the streets.

So, maybe it take 3 years before it works at a basic level ? I was fairly competent with boxing in 3 months. By year 5 some may have said I was good. I’d bed to differ. If I wa sable to work the other stuff I was taught it was probably because I was boxing or had boxed after I stopped.

Edit, Perhaps in your school things do go well and quickly. I am sure there are others here that feel the same way. Some I believe, may be delusional in their believed abilities. But, I have been to loads of schools and trained at a couple on both the east and west coast and I will say 1 I trained at gave the goods and fast and that was ITF.

20

JPinAZ , would you be so kind as to explain your schools progression or whatever you want to call it to produce capable self defense and guys that can hold their own fighting even if they lose. Hey, we can’t beat every guy we come across that is for certain. And the time frame it takes on average ?

I also want to mention another Isshin Ryu buddy. He was a green belt in Judo prior to taking up Isshin Ryu. But right from the go, he was using Isshin Ryu stuff successfully. I attributed that to him having done Judo. Like with boxing, just the methods used to train. It probably gave us an advantage with understanding distance ( even if we did not understand it but felt or knew it from experience) , seeing openings and being aggressive. This guy was a terror. Few others were unless they were in the art to at least a brown belt. But he was handling black belts in sparring as a yellow belt.