Why wouldn’t you use chi sao in a combat situation? Not the actual practice of the rolling hands, but the techniques must be applicable, no?
chi sao overated
The best thing I heard was from Emin Boztepe (okay stop booing) who said “chi sao is for 1 second-when you touch your opponent. After that its useless.”
Basically what he means is that when you contact a part of your enemy thats the chi sau-then everything must flow from there. Chi sau is only a sensitivity drill albeit a good one.
Here’s a great drill I learned from Emin-do your poon sau (double arm chi sau) with a partner. One of you instantly breaks and sort of ducks/does a punch to the gut.
As a side note, all the best WT fighters I’ve met had several years of previous training in more rigorous systems-namely boxing and wrestling.
Couldn’t agree more with Emin. Chi Sao is exactly for that intitial moment of contact. Some of the guys who are really good at Chi Sau are so hard to fight because the moment you make contact (block to punch, punch to punch, etc.) they are able to immediately determine your intent or force you to their intent and slam you.
But what just plain ol’ Chi Sau is good for is when you’re mucking around with another practitioner of a different MA (or just a friend for that matter) and they try to flick quick punches at you. I like to tangle their arms and just play with them. I actually finger jabbed my wife fair on the tip of the nose the other day by accident. Just pure instinct, and I caught her right on the nose.
No damage done thankfully.
And yes, I hope that my time in boxing/Muay Thai will pay off in my Wing Chun. I’m pretty sure it will.
Self-Defense
If someone who wants self-defense cant wait 4 years to become a good fighter than they will become a poor fighter because it takes not only dedication but patience when it comes to a traditional art. Remeber these traditional arts took centuries just to become refined and cannot take a few years just to be memorized! You must grow with the art, fully understand and soak yourself into it to fully use it to your interest.
Also there are two people who want to take a martial art, one who wants to fight and the other who wants to develope both mind and body. If you want to fight…sure take boxing but if you want to grow take Wing Chun!
Thats my two cents.
I hear a lot of that “tmas are good for self discipline,etc.” Well, I’m not totally convinced. As stated before MOST people sign up with self defense in mind. We don’t want to take years to learn to fight. I take this aspect very seriously due to a recent violent encounter: mark this, you may, at any time, have to use your training to save your life or that of someone you love. If, for any reason, your art/style/teacher hasn’t prepared you, you are not only in trouble but in need of rethinking your self defense goals.
Re: The problem is the training
Originally posted by iblis73
There’s a lot of crappy wt/wc out there. Too many people try to get away with a light workout becuase the style seems so effective.
Very true.
There is a distinct lack of hard contact (ie helmet and gloves) sparring against one another AND against trained opponents, specifically boxers and wrestlers. This type of training is PARAMOUNT to real world self defense skills.
What, in your opinion, are “real world self defense skills”? And what “world” are you referring to? The one that existed at the time Wing Chun was created? The one that existed at the time Yip Man moved to Hong Kong, and modified the Wing Chun to suit its society? Or the world now, where Wing Chun is becoming a boxing style, a sport?
Despite its flexibility, few people train for spontanaity, sucker punches,and bizarre situations.
How would you train for this?
Wt/wc is a BOXING style-yet how much time is actually spent on punches (in the air,wallbag,chasing a person.)
Hmmm… I thought it was a martial art, not a sport.
hey wing man, I already know wing chun works, I just wanna know y this guy(or any one else) thinks it dosn’t.
Badass my friend, he is just being a stupid dummy…
It is my understanding that WC is not a ring sport
I dont understand why you feal that way…
Use your wing chun for stand up,go learn ground work, get good at them both,fight in the ring…
Just because you can kick a guy in the balls and rip his eyes out doesnt mean you cant use the art.
Think about it, all the other people in there have to follow the same rules as you do…
Wing chun should work very well if the fighter was aware of the “reality” of the ring!..You need to be able to defend against takedowns and have a good knowledge of the most important ground escapes and guard tactics.You have also to be good enough in wing chun to understand that you cant stop a guy like Pat Beneteau facing him in YGKYM like a complete moron!..You have also to know that if you chase the hands of a guy like Pat Beneteau,instead of his face,he will shoot you to the ground and punch you to a pulp. Chi sau as you will painfully learn does not work very well with a 250 pds guy sitting on your chest!..
:rolleyes:
So you’re saying that WC doesn’t work against Frenchmen?
Response
WT is a BOXING style. From leung tings poster:wing tsun is a method of chinese pugilism. Pugilism is boxing, or striking and parrying with the hands. This can be done as a sport or self defense. As it is, I don’t see WT becoming a “sport” anywhere.
Real World Self Defense skills-the ability to survive a street fight vs. a highly skilled assailant.
As for how to train for these skills, hard workout EVERY time. When my seniors trained us (not the instructor) and in time when I trained the class I would work for some serious conditioning, albeit using wt techniques.
Full contact sparring, within reason, develops excellent self defense skills. But so does full contact reflex drills. For example, get out some mats and work takedowns with a SKILLED partner. Learn how its done, get comfortable with it, then you will be much better of to stop it.
Have a partner put on boxing gloves and come after you. Learn how to parry,evade and shut him down. Its different when someone is really trying to take your head off.
Do sucker punch drills and scenario training. Sucker punch drills can be done 2 ways: defending vs. sucker punch (and I mean here any surprise attack) and ATTACKING with a sucker punch. I found when we did this (the attacking portion), especially with full contact, we become really good at DETECTING similar surprises.
Yeah Rogue. I’m a frenchman and I know wing chun works on me…It is TKD that does’nt!!!
some more goodness
AS for scenario training, figure out where you might be attacked. An elevator, staircase, sitting on a chair. Put on some headgear and a mouthguard and have someone come after you in said location.
Try the third basemens drill-you stand talking with a partner, with your hands in various positions (eg, on your hips, brushing your hair, etc.) Have him give you a good shove/slap and you have to block/parry/evade and control him without punching/striking him.
Heres another fun one:
Have your students pair up in two lines. One group turns their back to the other group. The second group initiates attackes/takedowns by basically sneaking up behind them and grabbing/throwing them. Need more spice? Have the defenders do it blindfolded.
Here are some real world scenarios you can play with:
You are sitting in your car w/the window down. A helmeted motorcycle rider comes up and grabs you or starts punching you thru the window.
You are in bed with the lights out. You wake up to having a man on top of you attacking you. You’re under the sheets. (try doing this in a real bedroom-its not fun.)
You live in a corner apartment, and the light outside is out. Its night. AS you fumble for your keys someone comes around the corner and tackles you or attacks you.
You are sitting in a chair in a computer lab. An angry person comes up and starts threatening you. Then he attacks while you are still seated.
For more ways to do this, check out Tony Blauers Panic Attack series from Panther productions.
A historical note
Gongfu has traditionally in China been referred to as a boxing method. Thus the term “Chinese Boxing”. Thats why theres white crane boxing, plum flower boxing, etc. Obviously these methods incorporate more than just fists and striking with them, but its important to note.
PS I love wing tsuns techniques, but thats all wing tsun really is. The training isn’t up to par for street combat, imho. Again, I want to clarify this is based on what I’ve seen. I’d love to train wing tsun with a heavy focus on the basics and lots of self defense training.
I also want to recomend that people should visit tony blauers website. He heads tactical confrontation management systems. People I’ve seen NO ONE address the psychological and adrenal problems of fighting in more detail. His tapes are unreal-I just bought a set and after watching them I can’t bring myself to train in even a vale tudo school. They’re really unbelievable.
And while I focus a bit much on the fighting side, its only becuase the consequences of losing can be tremendous. Just think, as your reading this, or as you go home tonight, there could be someone that is going to try to kill you-for your money,becuase you’re in the way, or just becuase. Has your training prepared you for a life and death struggle???
hey Iblis73
ever get out to Fort Worth? You’d like our kwoon.
hows this for a drill :
one person is surrounded by two others. one person does a grab, then as soon as it is counterd person two does another grab. As soon as thats “done” attacker #1 steps back up, and so on and so on. you try and give the “defender” 0 time to think/breathe between attacks.
you get real dizzy real quick, but learn to stay on your feet and relaxed.
iblis
So, basically, you’re saying that you train a sport, not a martial art.
Whoa Nellie!
What in the world are you people talking about? Take up a self defence class instead of Wing Chun to learn how to fight??? What would you suggest - karate? (sorry rogue) Are you people serious? What kind of Wing Chun/Wing Tsun are you learning anyway?
This is probably the reason why Wing Chun, yes Wing Chun is in the state that it’s in. You talk about all kinds of drills, but they are all worthless if they can’t help you in a fight. After all; was’nt Wing Chun developed to teach a person how to fight efficiently in a short amount of time.
In fact, I have a very realistic drill that you should try. Have the biggest strongest guy you know walk up to you and punch you or kick you as hard as he can. If you can’t do anything to stop him I suggest you quit practicing and just buy a gun.
Double bong sau???
Wing chun should work anywhere. . Even with eye gouges and throat strikes excluded.
Like I said though, it’s not the system, but the training methods that are poor. Different people train it differently. Just like any martial art, you’ll have some people that are good and some that are out to make money.
At least I know that here in the NYC, we keep it real. As real is real. .