Why the Hardcore Kung Fu Training only about JKD.

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Wingchun and Bruce Lee

Hey Mun Hung!

I would have to say that I agree with you here. We have a a few JKD guys who decided to go back to learna little WC before continuing with JKD and never went back!
I have been looking into the whole Bruce Lee/Wing Chun mystery. I have a passion for both, Wing chun is an awesome system, for me. Bruce Lee was a talented man, even his contemporaries will admit this. But…
I was curious as to why Bruce would have decided to dump WC ad its Classical mess for a new system he would design and this is what I have come up with so far:

Bruce Lee had a huge ego! Now I like his stuff, his movies are classics, and he did a lot (some say a lot of damage) for kung fus public image. But he was ****y, he boasted alot about his own skill and ability. It would seem he also had some reason too for he was a natural at fighting.
He was obsessive. He became obsessed with fighting, the art of fighting, getting in shape for fighting, improving fighting, etc…It was his life through and through.
These two things can be a pretty strong mixture, but then mix in the fight with Wong Jack Man(sp?) and you have an explosive combination. now there is a lot of debate around this fight, and only two people will ever really know what happened exactly, but there is some convincing evidence to show that Bruce didn’t do quite as well as some think he did. I am starting to believe this for a few reasons…
Both were younger men, Bruce was pretty young and had the ego and passion to make him a little head strong, overconfident, and possibly easy to anger if things didn’t go the way they should. We all have a little of this in us and we can all understand this.
now he gets into this fight, that for him is very serious, because fighting is a very serious thing for him.
when he met someone who was his match, and who played by his own rules, he may have done worse then he has or had expected. This would frustrate and possible demoralize anyone enough to go looking somewhere else. now add ego and obsession to that…

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To mun hung:

Thank you for helping me prove my point! Wing Chun IS the nucleus of the JKD system (as taught by Bruce Lee anyway)! Sifu Patrick Strong, who trained with Bruce Lee for six years, said that Bruce used to do the sil lim tao form a minimum of five times per day! He felt that the structure developed from the form was so important to Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do that it should be practiced daily! By the way, I just got off of the phone with one of my good friends who is a Wing Chun Sifu in the Yip Man lineage. He was calling to let me know that he and his Wing Chun brothers appreciate the efforts that I put into giving the Wing Chun system credit as being the nucleus of Bruce Lee’s method! I’m glad someone does! Anyway, thanks again!

63

Lamar,
I appreciate your enthusiasm for original JKD. I hope maybe you could clarify somethings.

From web site: "Yes! I definitely think that JKD is a system with a structure! In fact, I know it is! If it is not, what have I been teching my students all these years? It certainly hasn’t been any of the other arts that I trained in!

From KFO: “All that I currently train in is Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do, along with a healthy dose of Wing Chun Gung Fu to constantly reinforce my structure. I have not found anything “lacking”, nor have I felt that I really need anything else!”

Does JKD have it’s own structure or does it rely upon Wing Chuns?

From Lamar Davis website interview:
“I started actively training in the martial arts at the age of ten, getting my first experience from basic Japanese judo and karate. I started purchasing books, magazines and everything else that I could get my hands on pertaining to the martial arts. At the age of fifteen, I was actively training in Northern Shaolin gung fu, Ed Parker’s Kenpo, Korean tae kwon do and tang soo do. I eventually achieved full instructorship in Northern Shaolin gung fu, a second degree black belt in Ed Parker’s Kenpo and first degree black belts in tae kwon do and tang soo do. Later on I got involved in Filipino kuntaw and escrima. I eventually achieved a fourth degree black belt in kuntaw and guro certification in escrima. I also studied a Chinese style called shin pao chuan (leopard boxing) and achieved full instructor’s certification in that style. By this time, I was twenty-two years old”

Achieving all that in a twelve year time span is very impressive. You must have been a forms/hyung monster. :slight_smile:

  1. Would you mind listing your sifu, masters and sensei?
  2. Did you study all these arts at the same time?
  3. How many hours a week did you study each one?
  4. Were any of these a McDojo? :slight_smile:
64

Sifu Davis,

I wouldn’t be too hasty to judge this forum on a misunderstanding between yourself and Ryu. Ryu is probably one of the most honorable and respectful posters on here, and what he was saying in his post was not so much disrespectful, but just sharing his view on the topic. Look at Ryu’s past posts, and you’ll understand better. You’ll benefit more from listening to Ryu than many on this forum, and at the very least, you’ll be genuinely treated with respect.

Ryu,

However, this accursed virtue won’t save Fistibuns. Plans are in the works for him and his pitiful clan!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!
(The Hideous Doctor ****swain vanishes out of sight, going back to the darkest regions of the forum where he and his kind hold sway, awaiting the day when they shall crush with an iron fist all that is decent and pure.)

65

Dr. ****swain returns!

*******s! I can’t even say my **** name without these ****ing censors making ****ing stars out of every ****ing letter! God **** virtuous ****mongers.

Sincerely,

Your friend,

The newly titled Hideous Dr. C0ckswain

66

Interesting Resume there Lamar,

Lets go over it for a sec. You say that you’ve trained in the Martial Arts for 34 years,10 of those years you crossed trained in Northern Shaolin Gung Fu,Filipino Kali,Kuntaw,Wu Wei Gung Fu,Shin Pao Chuan Gung Fu,Tae Kwon Do,Tang Soo Do & Ed Parker’s American Kenpo Karate…

The other 24 years of your training is all Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do with some supplementary Wing Chun.

WOW :eek: You’ve even trained with 18 of Bruce Lee’s original first generation students & hold a full instructor certification under 5 of them. As well as being the Executive Director/Senior Instructor of the Jun Fan Fighting Arts Association & the Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do International,you’ve written 2 books on Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do…:rolleyes: & your point?..

Now as for saying this that & a third about Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do & how if your not training the Jun Fan set curriculum you can’t be doing Jeet Kune Do…:confused: If you say so… :smiley:

Just for the Record there are quite a few Jeet Kune Do Concepts people out there that have a strong background in Jun Fan in fact they have a good understanding of what it is as well…:smiley: ( meaning a strong base )

So to say that the Jeet Kune Do Concepts people have no idea about what Jun Fan is Because they choose to train in other arts( or as you put it to have to add to there training is to miss the point of what Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do is about) tells me that you have issues with the Jeet Kune Do Camp whats up with that?..
( If you disagree with the way that someone is teaching what you have trained & worked so hard for then it’s with them not the whole Jeet Kune Do Camp…)

Oh & by the way I do feel that one should have a good understanding of what Jun Fan is in order for them to appreciate what Jeet Kune Do has to offer reguardless of what side of the fence you’re on be it Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do or Jeet Kune Do Concepts…:smiley:

In an other words Lamar Freedom Come’s when you learn to let go!:stuck_out_tongue:

A fighter will block where a master will attack

To know it is to comprehendit. To apply it is to use it. To master it is to experience it. From here on,there is no end . You can achieve yet higher levels.

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D@nm Ryu and Ray, you JKD concepts people are always stirring up trouble. :stuck_out_tongue:

Technique wise it would be possible to learn TKD & TSD at the same time or leverage one into the other, though learning all the hyungs up to black belt for both would be a bear. Don’t know enough about EPK or the style of KF, but I’d guess that they wouldn’t share the same attributes that TKD & TSD do.

Lamar, After reading your website I’d say you’re a real traditionalist, like most of us here. :smiley:

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SifuLMDII

Im not trying to argue with you and i can fully respect what you do my orginal post was simply in defence of Ryu. As I belived that your comments were very unfair.
Im also going to take exception to this.
To jon:

“Once again, here we go with someone quoting philosophisms and taking the meaning way out of context!”

  • There was no context… If you have read the book you will know that comment comes from a whole section of individual comments in the back of the book entitled ‘JUST A NAME’ which discribe in detail how Bruce felt his Jeet Kune Do should be viewed.
    “If Bruce Lee had lived, the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, if even published, would have been DRASTICALLY different from what we have today!”
  • So in your opinion Linda Lee did her husband a great disservice by printing a manual of his thoughts and feelings towards his lifes work?
    “Also, that statement that you quoted did not say what JKD is, it just said that he doesn’t want people fussing over it!”
  • actualy it says a lot of how he wanted his Jeet Kune Do to be viewed he clearly wanted people to take the concepts and apply them to there own learning, what the style is has nothing to do with Jeet Kune Do. This is evidenced all though the book, especialy in the preface which ill quote for you in total as was the last quote “This book is dedicated to the free, creative martial artist. Take what is usefull and develop from there.”
    NEVER in the book does it anywhere say, what Jeet Kune Do will or wont use or what or what not it is derived from.
    " When this was written, he was still with us! Large and in charge, as the saying goes! He was here to clearly show us exactly what Jeet Kune do was, therefore no need to fuss over anything, as the proof was right before you! Now that he is not with us, it is as if fifty different players tried to take the same ball and run in different directions with it! That just doesn’t work!"
  • There you just nailed your own problem… If you want to say your teaching kung fu that comes from Bruce Lee more power to you. If you want to say its Jeet Kune Do thats no problem.
    If you want to tell people that they cant apply “Jeet Kune Do” to there own studys or call themselfs in Bruces own words “a Jeet Kune Do man” then i hate to tell you, your wrong…
    You dont own his martial arts and you dont own his concepts. If you wish to try and put others down for thinking there in some ways following in Bruce Lee’s legacy your a fool.
    Get off your high horse and meet the real world…
    Yes your trained in the same methods, but you DONT own them and you never will.
    As long as his own writings are around to prove you otherwise, you will always have the same argument.
    Im not saying I dont respect what you do, im just saying dont pretend to be something your not and never could be, that is the authority on what Jeet Kune Do is or is not. Bruce has already done that for us.
    Respects Jon
69

Hey Rogue,
I’m not trying to stir up any trouble… :smiley:
I’m just stating my own opinion just like you…:stuck_out_tongue:

A fighter will block where a master will attack

To know it is to comprehend it. To apply it is to use it. To master is to experience it. From here on, there is no end. You can achieve yet higher levels.

70

Am I to believe that Mr. Davis is now saying that Jun Fan JKD is a style?:confused: :rolleyes: Is this the same person who way back when on the JKD forum debated with me for days that it was not a style and then suddenly disappeared from the forum? :smiley:

Wow! Glad to see you finally came around. :smiley: One thing I have to say about this whole thread though, why is it that you feel the need to list all your credentials on every post you write. Sounds like a resume to me. Who are you trying to impress anyway?

Nice to have you back. I sure missed those discussions we used to have. :rolleyes: :wink: :smiley:

Peace

71

Hello loki!

I still say that JKD is not a “style”! LOL! Style, to me, is an individual thing! However, I do say, just as I always have, that Jeet Kune Do is a system, or method of martial arts! This has always been my opinion, and it always will be my opinion! :smiley:

Now, as for the credentials, it is important to me for people reading my posts that they are made aware of the fact that I’m not just some “nobody” with “no knowledge” here to run my mouth! We have enough of those on this forum already! :eek:

Anyway, thanks for the welcome back! I see that the climate here has not changed much! LOL! Still plenty of people ready to jump in there if anything even the slightest bit controversial comes up! :rolleyes:

I look forward to eventually having some good, non-controversial Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do related conversationon here! I mainly come onto the forums to see if I can be of assistance to anyone, but I often forget that some people really don’t want to be helped! :frowning:

Oh well, as long as the proverbial “pot” exists, there will always be someone waiting for their turn to stir! :wink:

Take care!

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"Now, as for the credentials, it is important to me for people reading my posts that they are made aware of the fact that I’m not just some “nobody” with “no knowledge” here to run my mouth! We have enough of those on this forum already! "

And I’m darn proud of it too!

C’mon Lamar, who did you study your non-JKD arts under. If I can admit to studying Shoalin Kempo Karate (GM Fred Villari) you can too! :smiley:

Once again…

  1. Would you mind listing your sifu, masters and sensei?
  2. Did you study all these arts at the same time?
  3. How many hours a week did you study each one?
  4. How hard was it to keep all the forms and Hyung straight?

Hey Ray, this thread sounds like the What is JKD thread, but in a alternate universe.

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sifu davis

i’m a little peeved about this. first you say that some of us aren’t studying JKD and that we may not know our own style, then you say that JKD is not a style – that it’s more of an individual thing?

which is it, big guy?

i’m more keen on the second one, but that’s just me.

74

SifuLMDII

As rubthebuddha just said i think you have missed the point here sorely.
Most of us have simply objected to YOUR statements.
If you post in a way that says ‘im a master of Bruce Lee’s kung fu’ then you have to expect people to occasionaly question your authority.
Likewise if you pick on people for things, you can expect others to step up and defend.
This is my favorite quote of late…
“people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones”

I dont doubt your abilitys or your resume.
I will object if you step on other people in an effort at making yourself look better.

Again nothing personal about you or your abiltiy. Just dont like the way you communicate your views.
Jon

75

Hey Rogue alternate universe LOL…:smiley:

To know it is to comprehend it. To apply it is to use it. To master it is to experience it. From here on,there is no end. You can achieve yet higher levels.

76

“Style”

The word “style” as I perceive it, refers to an individual thing! In other words, I practice JKD, you practice JKD, but we each have our individual “style” of doing things! It is much like clothing, what one person sees as being “in style” for them might be “out of style” to another, or to the fashion world for that matter! Yet they are both looking at the same item of clothing! The individual is what puts the “style” into something! This is why I prefer to use the term METHOD or SYSTEM when I refer to Jeet Kune Do.

To rogue:

OK, since you asked for it, here goes:

Kenpo Karate, Northern Shaolin Gung Fu - Instructor/Thomas Seales (Originally from California, used to be the Chief of Police for the University of Alabama police department in Birmingham. Currently director of security for some hospital in Ohio.)

Filipino Escrima, Filipino Kuntao, Shin Pao Chuan Gung Fu - Instructor/Robert S. Brabante (Of Filipino descent, head of system passed to him by his father. Trained/ranked in multiple martial arts. Very extensive background. Last time I heard from him he was in Dallas, Texas.)

Wu Wei Gung Fu - Instructor/Joseph I. Cowles (Founder of this system, originally trained with Bruce Lee in Seattle, Washington.)

Tae Kwon Do - Instructor/Greg Smith (From Germany. Learned tae kwon do in Germany while father was stationed there in the military.)

Tang Soo Do - Instructor/Terry Norris (No relation to Chuck! LOL! Taught classes in tang soo do at the University of Montevallo in the mid-seventies.)

I have also experienced training in several other martial arts, such as shotokan karate, kodokan judo, yoshukai karate, kyokushin kai karate, praying mantis gung fu and most importantly, wing chun gung fu. When I was fifteen years old, I was training in six different martial arts at one time. I had my schedule arranged in high school so that I trained during P. E. class and during what was supposed to be study hall! I was at some class every night during the week, and often on weekends! I basically lived the martial arts from my early to late teens! I would start training in the afternoon immediately after coming in from school. My tae kwon do instructor would often come over to my house and spar with me. When it got to where I could take him EVERY TIME he started getting a bit worried! He didn’t like this “kung fu stuff” that I was learning from someone else! LOL! He eventually stopped coming around and we no longer associated with each other in any way! Yes, it was sometimes difficult keeping forms separated! I hate forms, and I have always hated forms! In fact, the only form that I train now is sil lim tao, and I do that every day, several times a day! well, I guess that’s about it! I hope this answered your questions adequately! And by the way, no McDojos, but I did eat at McDonald’s after class a few times! LOL!

Oh, and by the way Ray, that’s “EVIL ALTERNATE PARALLEL UNIVERSE”! LOL! :smiley:
(a la Southpark)

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Thanks Lamar for the rundown. Youth is a great thing, imagine trying to do all that now! :slight_smile: I have enough trouble with managing family (1), work (2) and then 5 hours of class time a week, gym work and home practice.

I have some more questions about somethings on your site that I’ll ask later. Nothing too stupid I hope, just some clarification of some quotes and your opinion.

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Question Lamar?..

Originally posted by SifuLMDII
[B]Hello DragonzRage!

All that I currently train in is Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do, along with a healthy dose of Wing Chun Gung Fu to constantly reinforce my structure. I have not found anything “lacking”, nor have I felt that I really need anything else! Before I trained exclusively in Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do, I cross trained in Northern Shaolin Gung Fu, Ed Parker’s American Kenpo Karate, Filipino Kali and Kuntaw, Wu Wei Gung Fu, Shin Pao Chuan Gung Fu, Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do! It was when I trained in those arts that I felt “incomplete”! I knew that I had found my martial arts home when I started training in Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do! Everything just “clicked” and things fell right into place! I don’t practice any of those other arts now, nor do I ever intend to go back to them! [/B]

I was wondering what exactly was lacking from your CMA training that made you feel so incomplete?..
As appose to your Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do training which you say you haven’t found anything lacking there for there’s no need to add anything else to it…:smiley:

To know it is to comprehend it. To apply it is to use it. To master it is to experience it. From here on,there is no end. You can achieve yet higher levels.

79

From Lamar Davis website: "Another statement that Bruce Lee himself once made that keeps ringing in my ears is “Jeet Kune Do is the only non-classical style of Chinese gung fu in existence today.”

If Wing Chun, a classical style, is the core of Bruce Lee’s art then JF/JKD is directly connected to a classical art which by association would make it also a classical art. Was Lee trying to have it both ways?

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this cracked me up after reading his posts here

from SifuLMDII’s page

"Question: What do you think of the controversy between the JKD concepts practitioners and the Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do practitioners?

Sifu Davis: Not Much! I think it is ridiculous! They have their way (concepts practitioners) and we have ours! Why can’t they just do their thing and not criticize us for what we do? This stupid controversy has been going on forever! I think it’s about time for everyone to grow up and give up the “if you don’t play my way I’ll take my toys and go home” attitude! They can play with their toys on their side of the fence and we’ll play with our’s on our side of the fence! What’s the big deal?"

This cracks me up since he told Ryu he’s not doing JKD and then complains that other people are jumping on him here. LOL!!

Also, personally sort of gave up on listening to him when he started to use the word style in a context outside of that used by the MA community so he could say that yes JKD was not a style and then outlines how it is one. I get his point that everyone has their own style but to say that in a forum where people routinely ask and answer the question,“What style do you practice?” is a bit misleading. Oh hell, I’ll just change the standard definition of JKD and we won’t have a problem any longer. What’s the big deal?

SifuLMDII, my Jun Fan is really limited and I acknowledge that. I hold no instructorship in JKD and I acknowledge that. I am certain that you are a skilled practitioner and don’t mean to offend. Personally though I think you are the exact reason Bruce Lee said it’s just a name.