Question for the JKD people

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
1

I have a genuine question after reading the jkd talk on the SCARS post below.

I know that jkd is supposed to be a philosophy rather than a “system” or “style” and as such, a way through which one might find their own unique martial truth. Whenever I have seen “jkd” (and admittedly, my only exposure has been through videos/documentaries and such)I do see people training in techniques from Muay Thai, kali, boxing, wing chun, BJJ/wrestling/judo.

My question is, who decides where these techniques come from? I know that if a beginnerr walks in to train they need to be shown something, rather than just sent on to “find their own way” - but who decides that this south east asian “base” is the “right” place to start for everybody(making great presumptions now - forgive me if I’m getting it wrong).

If a student was more likely to find an appropriate personal expression in the traditional Okinawan systems or a modern Korean system like Hapkido or in Chinese Jow Ga or something, how would they become exposed to these styles in the first place if they were training with a legit jkd group? Granted, chambered punching may not be for everyone, but if someone was, for whatever reason, predisposed to having this carry the most truth for them, would they have an opportunity to become exposed to it?

Just curious - I’ll look forward to the replies.

James

2

Well it would have to depend on the individual instructor. What you can get in a particular JKD school will vary because almost every JKD instructor will have a slightly different emphasis and background from the next. Obviously, an instructor cannot offer to show you something that he doesn’t know. So if you went to a JKD school and wanted to start out with Tang Soo Do, which the instructor most likely will not know very well then I guess the best thing he could do would be to hand you a phonebook and let you search for a Tang Soo Doo school. Despite the fact that JKD is a philosophy rather than a specific style, the fact remains that JKD affiliated schools have over time come to be usually focused in methods derived from Jun Fan, muay thai, kali, boxing and grappling. The reason for that is because all the aforementioned methods are no nonsense arts focused on live training and effectiveness. That is what the JKD martial philosophy is all about so i guess that is why JKD practitioners’ training stems from those backgrounds. if traditional karate is the best thing for you, then you are free to make it a part of your personal JKD, but the training methods, philosophy and standards of styles like that are very different from that of the JKD philosophy. So your chances of finding a certified JKD instructor who is also teaching Shotokan on saturdays is slim to none.

~Max

3

Okay…

Yep - okay, it all makes sense, sort of. And philosophically it sounds wonderful. And I know that Bruce Lee did say that it was important to get away from the “classical mess”. But what about all those silent stylists who can make their traditonal arts work for them well in real life situations? I know that many non traditionalists feel that some of the more, shall we say, “ritualised” systems are not that street effective, but I wonder about a situation where a jkd instructor with an opinion such as this (or personal experience to back it up) steers a student away from a classical tradition when that student might have been a person who could have embraced that classical system and made it work very well for them - perhaps better than an eclectic base.

I know this is full of “might have’s” and “could possibly’s” but it does seem to me that for all it’s arguments to the contrary, jkd philosophy as it appears to be taught today, could be seen to be a fairly exclusive ideology, rather than an inclusive one.

4

Not necessarily…

There’s a difference between not usually being affiliated with something and completely excluding it. None of my instructors automatically shun traditional arts. If you come in with a background in a traditional art, they will judge your previous trianing by your actual ability, not just on what particular style it is. As for JKD people coming from traditional backgrounds, it happens more often than you might think. I came from a background of traditional gung fu. This one guy who I train with came from a previous background of Kyokushinkai and aikido. If you come in and show everyone that you have real ability, then they will respect your previous training no matter what style it is.

Nice guys always finish last. Sympathy and sincerity will get you left behind…and leave you washed up like **** going down the drain.

5

hmmmn, Bruce never finished his traditional training.

Hi-

While JKD in itself is a pretty neat thing, I think that one would be remiss to not acknowledge that fact that Bruce Lee never finished his formal training under the direction of Yip Man Si Fu.

Bruces comments concerning “Classical mess” were strictly from his own viewpoint, which, already knowing he didn’t complete the curriculum, were a little off base.

He had a lot of natural talent and of course a huge ego. I think for us as martial artists to be reiterating his statements is just parroting without really knowing.

Pretty much anything you find in his Tao of Jeet Kune Do can be found in much older classical texts dealing with Martial arts.

He was young and impetuous and incorrect in his assumptions concerning the overall classical chinese martial arts which were time and again battlefield tested over more than a thousand year period.

So, what Bruce was doing was putting forth those same ideas as his own. This in itself is incorrect and is also contradictory to what his message was.
There is nothing new in his writings that hasn’t been said before by those such as Lao Tzu or Sun Tzu or any number of classical martial arts masters.

So in the end, JKD in my understanding was bred out of Bruce Lee’s frustration with not being allowed to continue his study of the formal exercises of Wing Chun Kung Fu.

He overstepped the boundaries of decorum by calling his teachings his own without full recognition of those whose shoulders he stood on to see.

All that aside, Bruce was a terrific fighter both in real life and in movie Kung Fu.
the training he provided to professionals such as Joe Lewis, Dan Inosanto et al, made huge differences in their own skills.

Bruces overall knowledge of Kung fu should always be attributed to the teachings he recieved through Yip Man si Fu and of course Si Hing Cheung who was his main teacher.

The ecclectic needs were delved into by the Shaolin ages ago. Animal styles were propagated to fit the practitioner and body type and shape generally dictated were the monk was going to attain mastery. And although they were exposed to many styles they generally were taught to mastery level in only one or maybe two if they were exceptional students.

Had Bruce continued his training in classical Kung Fu, I’m sure he would not have made many of the disparaging statements he did about good old traditional training methods.

peace

Kung Lek

6

Just wondering…

JKD practitioners advocate jumping from system to system and learning a little from each to combine together a unique fighting system.
To me though it can have its drawbacks, I mean JKD guys stay long enough to learn the basic of other styles of fighting and end up with a complete repetoire of basic moves.
Now if I’m wrong about this please enlighten me, but what do JKD guys do when they come across a person who had mastered a bunch of advanced techniques.
Not a flame just a curious question.

If you have nothing to do, don’t do it here!

7

Kung Lek,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>I think for us as martial artists to be reiterating his statements is just parroting without really knowing.[/quote]

I think that actually depends on the person making or repeating the statement. If I quote my science teacher, doesn’t it depend on my actual understanding of science if I am parroting him or if I am using his statement to make understanding easier for others?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Pretty much anything you find in his Tao of Jeet Kune Do can be found in much older classical texts dealing with Martial arts.[/quote]

True, but then again the Tao was made up of Bruce’s personal notes from his library after his death and was never really meant to be made into a book.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>He was young and impetuous and incorrect in his assumptions concerning the overall classical chinese martial arts which were time and again battlefield tested over more than a thousand year period.[/quote]

I think we have been over this before, Kung Fu has for the most part really never been used on or around the battlefields of China. More likely it was more commonly used in clan fights between different families. Only a very limited number of arts can claim to have been used and developed for the battlefield.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>So in the end, JKD in my understanding was bred out of Bruce Lee’s frustration with not being allowed to continue his study of the formal exercises of Wing Chun Kung Fu.[/quote]

Actually as the story goes, Bruce orginally taught Jun Fan Gung Fu which was completely traditional Wing Chun when he first came here to make extra money. Anyways he ended up fighting a challange match with Wong Jack Man and did very poorly, it was that fight that made him rethink his training.

Finally I just wanted to add that nothing in JKD is new, it was all taken from things that worked for Bruce Lee, or Dan Inosanto, or Paul Vunak, or whoever but the point being it doesn’t matter where it came from, only that it works for you. If it doesn’t work for you, or you don’t truly know that it works for you then it is all just empty theory and may as well be trash, lates.-ED

“The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground…take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up…keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere…be ready and able to go everywhere.”-a mix martial artist

8

Gojira

It really depends on your instructor and what he felt worked for him that determines what you are taught in the beginning. You don’t just add any technique or style you want or like, but you only begin to develope once a good understanding of the core concepts and techniques that make up the fundamentals of JKD is truly understood. If you wanted I suppose you could trash all of it. I think what needs to be made clear is that when you go to any JKD school, you are learning first the concepts or philosophy and second the actual techniques which is the instructor’s. You are learning what worked for him, if I go to the Inosanto Academy, I would be learning Dan Inosanto’s vision of JKD, what worked for him. If I went to Burton Richardson or Paul Vunak I would be taught what they thought worked for them. One of the reasons why they all appear similar and yet different is the fact that a great many people were taught from the same core group of people what worked for them, their vision, and from there they all made changes where they felt it would work better for themselves. If I wanted too, after I gained some understanding I could add what I wanted, but it should be understood that JKD is daily decrease not increase. I hope that helps.-ED

“The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground…take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up…keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere…be ready and able to go everywhere.”-a mix martial artist

[This message was edited by GinSueDog on 10-02-00 at 12:50 PM.]

9

Hi Gojira. I wanted to answer your question as it is a good one. I think people get a little confused about JKD people taking things from other arts.

To take TKD for two months, then go to a kung fu school for two months, then a judo class for two months is not what people mean be cross training. Something like this might be good just to see what you will be comfortable taking but thats about it.

When I first got into JKD I was focused on the western boxing element. I had done boxing in high school and I had seen its simple effectivness. In the as I am progressing I am getting into Muay Thai. It fits very well with my boxing base and I didn’t really have to re-learn a whole lot of basics. It just added excellent kicking, kneeing, elbowing, ect. to the base I already had.

When I first got into JKD, BJJ was a new part of the class. This was quite a while before any of the ufc’s and before the average martial artist even heard the word Gracie! I feel in love with the style and tried to learn as much as possible. Latly have have been tring to add some wrestling into my ground game to improve my throwing and (more importantly) not getting thrown. I didn’t have to unlearn any BJJ. Adding wrestling made my BJJ BETTER!! Just like adding Muay Thai made my boxing better.

This is what I’m tring to say… FIGHTING IS FIGHTING AND THATS IT. Styles aren’t whats important!! I am tring to be the best fighter I can and if adding elements or training methods of wresting, muay thai, or tai chi into what I do will make me better then I am going to do just that

10

ginsuedog

>>>Actually as the story goes, Bruce orginally taught Jun Fan Gung Fu which was completely traditional Wing Chun when he first came here to make extra money. Anyways he ended up fighting a challange match with Wong Jack Man and did very poorly, it was that fight that made him rethink his training.

Bruce Lee was egotistical. Period. He was teaching an art he was not certified to teach, just for monetary purposes. Doing this he got a big head and forgot he didn’t know all there was to know about Wing Chun. He got his ass kicked by Wong Jack Man because he was a novice and not a fighter. But his ego blinded him to this and he saw Wing Chun as the culprit.
Did he go back and fight Wong Jack Man after creating JKD? No…why is that?
-jojitsu27

11

I did not know you were there Jo…to be precise there are different versions of that fight and unless you were there or very close to either of those two fighters you dont know jack **** about what might of realy happened.

You seem to be speaking from a typical standpoint that Wing Chun is perfect, so it was not the Wing Chun training that was the problem in that fight…JKD is not a modified format of Wing Chun…it seems a lot of Wing Chun sifus try to state this as a fact to there students, when it is not the truth by any means.

I dont like to kick dead people around so I am not going to venture on unkown factors that I was not there to see for myself…take a chill pill big man.

Regards

12

Why is it so important if so-and-so won so-and-so fight between ten and five hundred years ago. I see that alot on many different boards.

Everyone thinks Royce Gracie is the baddest dude ever. Then he losses a fight to another great fighter. Now he sucks and was never any good.

I mean Mike Tyson may have lost a few fights too but that doesn’t mean he’s not a good boxer..

Q. What would Bruce Lee say if he was alive today???

A. Get me the hell out of this Box!!!

13

What Is The Art Of JKD…

In short what ever works!!!
Who cares where it comes from? Just as long as you can use it when it count’s is all that matters!

PEACE

RAYNYSC

14

Black Jack,

Don’t get all offended!
Your right, Bruce Lee is dead, and we shouldn’t give a flip why he developed JKD, but he did and it’s a great, realistic and functional art.
But I just don’t think it was Wing Chun’s fault that JKD was developed or that Lee lost that fight.
I have met William Cheung, Bruce Lee’s older brother in the Wing Chun family, and from whom he got much of his Wing Chun training, and trust me…that group in Hong Kong (the Yip Man students of that era) were giants in their own minds.
Bruce Lee thought he was a Wing Chun badass, he got into a fight and was proven wrong, and ego dictates it can’t possibly be because he has much more to learn…it’s because Wing Chun is an incomplete art and it’s Wing Chun’s fault.
I just don’t buy it.
Sure, Wing Chun lacks ground fighting, but simple crosstraining will correct that. If Bruce had continued his Wing Chun training, I think he would have found everything he desired in a martial art.
I have been in many, many fights throughout the years I spent in the Marines and I never found Wing Chun lacking, save instances where I went down to the ground. And that is why I crosstrain in jujitsu.
I’m just saying, don’t over glorify Bruce Lee, just because he was a movie star. Ego and doing things his own way played a big part in the development of JKD.
The simple facts were, Lee was a Wing Chun student of several years who decided on his own he was good enough to teach. He came over to America and presented himself as a Kung Fu Sifu and expert. He got into a fight that proved that wrong and the rest is history.
-jojitsu27

15

Hi Jo

Why does everybody say I sound offended all the time…I have to change my writing style

I am with you in many regards to this point, I think that Wing Chun is a GREAT system that is set up to let its students grow and become there own fighters and not robot clones. Yea, they need to cross train for the ground range and IMHO pick up some realistic weapon skills such as blades and short sticks from one of the FMA fighting systems but all in all it is a pretty nice set of tools to have in ones pocket in close range.

There are a number of other people who should be credited with helping to form JKD such as Joe Lewis and damn I forgot the dudes name…the guy who Bruce and Linda lived with in LA…whats his name James??..a few others, so yes it is unfair to rest such a great discovery on “just” one mans shoulders…it would be unfair and untrue.

I have a friend who is deep into Wing Chun and found that when he went into the FMA systems (a personal favorite of mine) his trapping skills and in-fighting improved to a great degree…have you ever tried to cross train with Kali (mano de mano) to see how there trapping tools could improve your in-fighting game?

Oh and I am sorry I sounded so pissy

Regards

16

But jo,

If wing chun was so ideal for you then why did you have to learn boxing? Surely it was not to compensate for wing chun’s lack of groundfighting:D There had to be something missing from the equation for you to crosstrain in boxing.

i think you’re right that it was not wing chun’s fault that Bruce felt incomplete. Wing chun has great tools and is a good method to study…but it is the blind absolute faith in ANY one style that was to blame for bruce’s shortcoming. The way I see it, there is no such thing as a complete, end all be all art. Each individual style has its limitations whether it be muay thai, BJJ, wing chun or boxing. One of the main points Bruce was trying to convey in his philosophy was that many martial artists (especially in his time) became so attached to their specific routines and so stylized that they lost their freedom of personal expression in the arts. When that happened, their art became a religion and limited theories were treated as gospel truth. With so many people crosstraining, nowadays its much less of a problem although it still exists. Every art is incomplete and imperfect. That doesn’t mean they are worthless, it just means that you have to find the truth and value (as well as recognize the limitations and shortcomings) of all of them.

“No way as way, no limitation as limitation”

~Max