Why the Hardcore Kung Fu Training only about JKD.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
81

In the martial arts the words STYLE and SYSTEM are synonymous. It does not matter if someone asks what style or what system I study. The answer would be the same.

Regardless of how Mr. Davis wants to define what he does. I’m afraid (although he won’t ever admit this) that he is in a catch 22 situation here. Let’s analyze this for a moment shall we? :smiley:

The American Heritage Dictionary has the following to say:

STYLE: The way in which something is done, expressed or performed. Individuality expressed in one’s action and tastes. To call or name, designate. To make consistent with rules of style.

METHOD : A systematic means or manner of procedure. Orderly arrangement of parts or steps to accomplish an end.

SYSTEM: A group of intereacting elements forming a complex whole.

So now, what can we conclude from this? Well, everyone knows that Bruce was against “styles”. When he said this he meant he was againt the crystallization of someone’s particular way of fighting. Whether that be the myriad of “styles” within the chinese martial arts, Karate “styles”, or whatever. They are all different “styles” of fighting. However, looking at the definition above we can see that style is also an individual’s own personal expression in doing something, meaning their own way. In this respect, Mr. Davis seems to have part of the definition to the word “style” correct, but then by Mr. Davis’ own use of words he has gone against his SiJo’s wishes in that he has CRYSTALLIZED his SiJo’s teachings and turned them into a…“A SYSTEMATIC MEANS OR MANNER OF PROCEDURE” OR… “METHOD”. Was not BL against this type of thinking? Did he not want the person, the individual to express themselves in their own way? It seems to me that Mr. Davis is trapped in the classical mess which BL spoke so ardently against but does not realize it. He has put BL’s teachings in a box and has concluded that anyone who does anything that is not in that little box is not doing JKD…or whatever you want to call it.

Sorry, Mr. Davis, if it seems like I’m attacking you. I’m really not. You just left yourself open for that one and your statements kind of undermine the intelligence of people here by twisting and playing on the definition of words which every martial artist understands within the context of martial arts to suit your needs. That is a no no in my book.

Peace

82

Loki, That’s what I mean by JKD & JKDC are hypocritical. They don’t want to be a style, but as soon as a certain group of techniques are taught it becomes a style.

I’ll give Lamar credit that he’s a Jun Fan guy and sticks with it, I also give Ryu credit since he’s using his Judo, PFS and the concepts JKD to create an art that fits him. I contrast this with the people who just copy Vunak, Inosanto or Burton Richardson(?) without exploring arts outside the accepted JKD curriculum.

83

Hello loki and everyone else!

Actually, by listing those definitions, you have been more assistance to proving my points than anything! Basically, according to the definitions that you have listed, Style is an individual’s way of expressing a method or system! That’s how I look at it anyway! You are free to see it anyway you want also!

Say what you want! I’ll just sit here and laugh about it! I have made up my mind on this and I’m sticking to my guns here, just as I always have! Maybe you haven’t read everything that I have, plus I doubt very seriously that you have had the many in-depth conversations with over twenty of Bruce Lee’s personal students that I have had! They can tell you a lot more about how he felt about things than you will read in any book! And guess what, it’s not what you think, that’s for sure! Also, none of you have trained with me, so don’t be so quick to judge my knowledge and abilities!

I know what Jun Fan Gung Fu is! I know what Jeet Kune Do is! I know what JKD concepts is! It’s all actually pretty simple to understand, and it makes no sense to complicate things by attempting to alter the facts! It seems that there are those who either refuse to understand it, or they just don’t have all of the facts! Say what you want, it’s not going to change one single thing about the way I feel!

You guys can continue to take jabs at me, or anyone else for that matter, all that you want, but you aren’t going to change a thing! Why not just realize this and try to do something constructive on these forums instead of wasting all of your time bad mouthing other people! I come here to try to help people, not to be blasted for expressing my thoughts and opinions! That’s the reason that I left this forum the first time, and I was the moderator then! Have a nice day! :slight_smile:

84

Rogue

Can’t speak for the others but Sifu Richardson has tried hard to break that by requiring students to do outside training. There are requirements for training times with other instructors. Even has students maintain a logbook signed by other instructors when he reviews people for the phase testing. Personally don’t like alot of Richardson’s groundwork.

SifuLMDII,
“Say what you want! I’ll just sit here and laugh about it! I have made up my mind on this and I’m sticking to my guns here, just as I always have!” Yes you have and I think that was sort of the point that most of us were trying to make. We are trying to do something constructive and point out to you and other people reading these posts that you are not the ultimate authority and that JKD could possibly be more than what you are stating. And your decision to say that what you are teaching is not a style by changing the MA definition of style is sort of flawed logically. Myo Sim is a style and I practice it in my own style. 2 different ideas. You have made JKD a style. Clearly not in Bruce Lee’s plan.

Also maybe you are right. Maybe he’d love what you are doing and say that is JKD and the JKD concepts people are wrong. But until I die I’ll never know. Difference is until that point, I’ll go with what he wrote and say that yes, you are doing JKD. But so is Vunak. So is Ryu. So is Ted Wong. So is Inosanto. So is Thornton. So is Cucci.

Lastly, this is an exchange of ideas. I will help where I can but mostly I come here to chat and to learn. but you-"I come here to try to help people, not to be blasted for expressing my thoughts and opinions! " I think your entire last post somes it up. With the attitude/arrogance. Think it might be time to empty your cup.

And yes, I realize I am not going to change a thing. You believe what you believe and nothing will change that. I am still going to stick with the different things he’s written and decide that whatever JKD might be the openminded attitude he espoused in the Tao of JKD is the best thing that Bruce Lee left me. As to any specific techniques/system, there’s better/worse/equal but different stuff all over the place. The mental attitude in the Tao was what made him great in my mind. and timeless.

Good luck to you.

85

then refrain from badgering people by saying that they don’t know what they’re studying and acting like you’re a better authority than the rest of us, especially on systems you haven’t completed (WC, for example). i think those were the jabs that set so many people off – myself included.

i don’t think anyone’s questioning your JKD knowledge – seems you out-rank the rest of us on experience on that. and i’m glad you’re here because of it. we like experience. with proper care, it brings wisdom, and THAT’S what we really want.

that, and do you need to use exclamation points so ****ing much? i have this really bad picture in my mind of some guy yelling about JKD at the top of his lungs all day, and it’s hurting the rest of my opinions of you.

if course, by the same token, i could get off my ass and capitalize something for a change. :slight_smile:

86

Well, this has really taken off. Too bad it’s something i really dont know about. I seriously didn;t think JKD was a style or system, however you wanna phrase it. I read things Lee supposedly wrote. I guess it was BS but i forgot who wrote it so i can’t post it. Besides that i’m confused on what his real intensions were. In the end only he would know.

87

I disagree with some of your views Lamar, but I’m not trying to change them. I’ve had questions about JKD for a while now which very few have even attempted to answer.

Maybe using the word hypocritical was wrong, what I meant was JKD has conflicting ideas. If you know what JKD is, and Jun Fan and JKDC and how to reconcile the conflicting ideas about style and such that we’ve noted then please do so. Either I’m too stupid to see how conflicting statements made by JKD people resolve themselves or the JKD crowd accepts these conflicts with blind faith, how they do without any cognitive dissonance is bothersome. I guess that there’s a third way that you may know but haven’t yet told us.

88

“I have made up my mind and sticking to my guns on this”.

As if you could do otherwise. :rolleyes: I proved your point? Everyone else doesn’t seem to think so. But then again, noone here knows what they’re talking about except you, right? We are the ones who need your help, right? You are here to save everyone from their ignorance because after all you studied under 18 of BL’s original students, right? Well, you know you missed one. I wonder why? Look, you may be an exceptional martial artist. Personally, don’t know, don’t care but you need to take care of that ego of yours and stop being so closed minded.

Wow! the irony…a traditional martial artist calling a jkder closed minded. Go figure :smiley:

Oh, and just out of curiosity, what style of mantis did you study? And who did you study from?

89

Re: Question Lamar?..

Hey Lamar,


I was wondering what exactly was lacking from your CMA training that made you feel so incomplete?..
As appose to your Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do training which you say you haven’t found anything lacking there for there’s no need to add anything else to it…:smiley:

To know it is to comprehend it. To apply it is to use it. To master it is to experience it. From here on,there is no end. You can achieve yet higher levels.

90

Lamar,
How do you feel about grappling, do you feel there is a need for it and do you think the grappling offered by Jun Fan is enough in a world where everyother martial artist seems to be a BJJer?-ED

91

What garbage!

Hello all,
I have read this entire stream of posts–yes, and know my head hurts. Quite frankly, what I see most is a bunch of people (not all) threatened by an authority figure. You envy what you do not possess and strike out against what you do not fully comprehend. Most of you spouting insults and insinuations at Sifu Davis from behind your keyboard would **** your pants if you faced him one-on-one. That’s the truth! Let me break it down like this:

Jun Fan/JKD is NOT a style simply because it advocates a core curriculum of techniques and principles because they were developed, taught and practiced by Sijo Lee himself while alive. This is HIS Jeet Kune Do–if we “add” anything, and there is little reason to, we do not call it Jeet Kune Do, because it is not. Now, it must still fit a core criterea, but that’s the way it should be for all things. Sijo Lee left behind his techniques, his methods, his phylosophy of training–but he always intended HIS art to stand for what it is, NAME OR NOT, and left the individual to add–and get this for the Concepts folks–his or her “emotional content/intensity/adaptive attributes”.

Myosimka wrote: “And he didn’t live so if we are to follow what Lee taught which is the big sticking point for many JKD instructors then what better source do we have than his writings/quotes?”

What better source? Lee himself, from the ones that perpetuate what he was actually doing while alive, what made him and Jeet Kune Do so **** good in the first place! Notes are just that–notes. Most JKDC people look little to nothing like Jun Fan practitioners. Why? Becasue they aren’t doing Jeet Kune Do. Period. Without some methodology you have chaos. The tru liberation of JKD is not in the HEAPING ON of techniques, the ruination of structure, it is in what the individual adds of their SPIRIT and INTENSITY. Bruce will always by JKD’s center, its standerd and its core. You cannot refine a straight line with a curve. If you want free expression in JKD, look to the Five Ways of Attack–it’s in there, for YOU, the individual to discover.

How can people call Sifu Davis egotistical and arrogant for attempting to educate from a position of learning and authority he has EARNED from over three decades of hard work? His curriculum spans every developemental period of Jeet Kune Do. We are not interested in “what ifs” when “what is” is more than good enough. There is a reason why Concepts people refute this—it’s easier to add than to perfect, to claim to be “cutting edge” and new than to settle for average. When your ass is on the line, what are you really thinking? Hit him first, hit him again and again and again until he can’t stand. This is JKD–simple, direct, efficient. No amount of heaping on will make it something more than it already is.

Think about it.

92

To myosimka:

Thanks for your comments, but please remember that the Tao of Jeet Kune Do was not meant for publication. It is just a collection of Bruce Lee’s notes! To get a full picture, you need to also read the Tuttle book “Jeet Kune Do: Commentaries On The Martial Way”. That is all of the stuff that was left out of the Tao of Jeet Kune Do! To make a complete book, you have to put the two together. If you have not read it, please do. It is an awesome book, and I, along with many others, like it much better than the Tao of Jeet Kune Do!

To rubthebuddha:

Thank you also for your comments! I never claimed to be an authority on Wing Chun, although I have trained extensively in Wing Chun and was offered instructorship under a high ranking master! As for my knowledge of JF/JKD, as I said, I come onto forums to try to help people! That’s all! No more, no less! As for my use of these (!), I just get excited about what I am saying! I love my art! I am very happy to be a JF/JKD practitioner! Besides THIS MEANS YELLING! LOL!

To rogue:

I’m glad that you disagree with some of my views! This world would be a pretty boring place if we all felt exactly the same about everything! As for the separation between the various JKD “camps”, and how to solve the problems, I don’t have an answer to that! I think it is best if everyone just does their own thing and respects others for what they do! If we could all do that this world would be a much better place, and we would all be open to learn something from each other!

To loki:

First of all, I am not closed minded! I never have been and I never will be! Since when is believing in what you do closed minded? Oh, and don’t mistake self confidence for ego! Those who are closest to me know that I have no ego, I just have a very strong belief in what I do, and I am quite sure of my abilities! Now, if you want to let a “small” difference in opinion of what “style” means get in the way of having another friend in the martial arts world, then you are just looking for stones to throw! I’ve got better things to do! I would rather have peacful discussions about various aspects of training methods, techniques, strategies, etc. than argue about something anyday!

To RAYNYSC:

The other arts that I have trained in just left me feeling like there was more, or like something was missing! When I found Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do, I knew that I had found my home! In other words, what fits me! I believe that all martial arts are great, but each person will find the art that best fits them. When they find that art, they will know they are home! I’m not saying that those other arts that I have studied are bad, just that they are not for me. I hope you understand where I am coming from here!

Peace to all of you! I hope to one day get to meet you in person so that we can train together! Take care and God Bless! :slight_smile:

93

There is a punctuation mark - ‘.’ - that can mostly be used instead of a ‘!’

It works much better if you ask me !!! :smiley:

94

“This is HIS Jeet Kune Do–if we “add” anything, and there is little reason to, we do not call it Jeet Kune Do, because it is not.”

So, Lee reached the culmination of his martial art at the time of his death? How does Inosanto fit into this? Inosanto(friend and student of Lee) is still mastering arts such as BJJ, does he feel that all his needs were met by JF/JKD?

Jeeze have you guys have put Lee into a box. What I hear from the strict JF/JKD crowd is that Lee, if he hadn’t died, wouldn’t have moved past where he was, that he would have ignored any other martial way of thinking past the time of his death. That’s a very classical (and messy) way of thinking.

95

LOL-forgot how touchy people get when you question their sifu/sensei

And so it gets personal and nasty. Prather, chill out. I questioned his interpretation of certain things and his logic. Still do. Simple disagreement.
“I have read this entire stream of posts–yes, and know my head hurts. Quite frankly, what I see most is a bunch of people (not all) threatened by an authority figure. You envy what you do not possess and strike out against what you do not fully comprehend. Most of you spouting insults and insinuations at Sifu Davis from behind your keyboard would **** your pants if you faced him one-on-one.”
I am not threatened nor am I striking out. I am simply pointing out there are a number of people in the JKD world who disagree with him. Many of whom have also been certified by Lee’s students.
I don’t envy him or his skill. I’ll grant that he would probably whoop up on me. (Not training that hard these days) But I don’t envy skill, I admire it. Don’t know much about him. So maybe I would admire his skill if I knew him. Certainly a possibility.
Also I have had my ass whipped by some of the best-surprisingly never soiled my pants(had to work hard to stop it though when this one 300 pound guy doing knee-on stomach and side mount drills in a BJJ class one time but that was something different all together)

“Most JKDC people look little to nothing like Jun Fan practitioners. Why? Becasue they aren’t doing Jeet Kune Do.” Ah and here we have the crux of it. The one that always gets me. The use of JKD and Jun Fan interchangeably. They are different things. If they weren’t, Lee wouldn’t have needed to come up with the later name. Oh and alot of the JKDC guys are JunFan trained but they decided to go a different route. I don’t think they should call what they are teaching JFJKD but personally see nothing wrong with JKD.

I study a traditional style with clear charted requirements/techniques. A few of my students have a habit of telling me what is and is not Myo Sim. To be told that I am not doing Myo Sim (when I can clearly demonstrate the roots of my techniques in forms/drills on the charts) is annoying and sort of rude. I imagine the reason the JKDC guys get so bent is you are doing the same thing. Funny thing is I never hear the JKDC guys make the same claim about JFJKD. You may have heard it and if so, I apologize for that assumption but I don’t hear that claim.
Other JKD instructors certified by Lee’s students have certainly earned their position as well. Your claiming they are not practicing JKD is at least as offensive to them as my saying JKD is more than just JFJKD is to you.

Also your assumption that anything added on is done so without methodlogy is flawed. “Without some methodology you have chaos.” I don’t know what JKDC guys you have trained under but Sifu Richardson clearly relates everything he does to the 5 ways of attack.

Can’t believe I just wasted this much time responding to someone who told me to think about it. Especially after reading my posts. You’re right-I couldn’t possibly have thought about it and still disagree with you. Oh wait, yes I can!

SifuLMDII,
I’ve done a fair amount of reading and I just find myself falling on the JKDC side of the fence. I see the JFJKD points but feel that that’s where the name Jun Fan comes in. True JKD is not simply MMA but I think it can incorporate a JF core and expand as needed. Personally Inosanto deciding to strap on a white belt and start studying BJJ at his age impresses the crap out of me!! Hell for that matter he took up Muay Thai at 39. That’s just crazy! The only thing I would say is that while we disagree the difference is I am not claiming that you are not doing JKD because it has grown to involve ground fighting. Yes what you are doing is JKD but so is what Vunak practices, so is what Wong, Poteet, Hartsell…

BTW, I never claim what I do is JKD. Just people I’ve trained with.

Rogue,
I see what you mean. This keeps up and I may go the same way as you. True, my gripes are more with the JFJKD side but overall the attitudes in JKD sometimes leave something to be desired.(and if one more Vunak guy tells me to bite in an armbar…)

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myosimka, come over to the dark side!:smiley:

Has anyone here downed Lamars or any JKD fighters skills? The argument is in the marketing of what JKD is or isn’t. Heck if I was down in Lamars neck of the woods I’d take a class or two and expect to learn something.

97

Rogue

not that I recall but for some reason Prather felt the need to turn it into

“My dad can beat up your dad.”
and
“You guys are just talking this way because you are anonymous behind your keyboards.”

Because apparently “hey, maybe JKD and JunFan are different but related”-them’s fightin’ words!!

And people keep telling me to cross over. I guess you can all feel my hate making me strong. As long as I get assurances that I can make one Faustian gesture, like Vader did in that crappy frggin’ ewok sale vehicle, and be redeemed. Like maybe I take up aikido at 60 or something.

I don’t mind the dark side but kind of seems like a karmic one way street.

98

Lamar: glad to hear it. like i’ve said, we’re happy you’re here, as someone of your experience in JF/JKD has a lot to offer. as far as the wing chun, i was referring to the fact that extensively does not mean complete. but it’s nice hearing someone who trains in one style accepting the strong foundations of another and respecting it.

Prather: glad to know you suffer from the same idle, keyboard-laden threat-spouting we supposedly do. Lamar doesn’t need your help – he’s doing just fine on his own. i’m also glad that you think an ability to whoop our asses qualifies as a reason to be revered. and as far as envy? bull****. i don’t envy anyone who’s an expert in jkd, or any other style of study, including my own, and i don’t believe the rest of us do, either. i respect hard work, dilligence and skill. however, i somewhat revel in my own inexperience, because i’ve enjoyed epiphane after epiphane in my studies, day after day. one of the greatest joys in my martial arts is the knowledge that there’s plenty more out for me to absorb. while i look to my seniors with the most profound respect, i occasionally look at them with a childish “neener-neener” attitude, knowing that i have more ephiphanes left than they do. :slight_smile:

as far as arrogant and egotistical, that was how his comments came across at times - no one likes to hear someone they don’t know tell them that they don’t know what they’re talking about. but i don’t think anyone who capitalizes nearly every sentence out of sheer enthusiasm has enough energy left to be arrogant.

oh, and Lamar? i’ll meet you halfway – i’ll at least capitalize your name.

99

Ah, well…

Rogue,

I’ll address you since most of the rest of this is rather infantile. You ask: “So, Lee reached the culmination of his martial art at the time of his death? How does Inosanto fit into this? Inosanto(friend and student of Lee) is still mastering arts such as BJJ, does he feel that all his needs were met by JF/JKD?”

As far as Sijo Lee reaching the potential of himself and his art, NO–he was improving everyday. But he WAS aware of the arts now adopted by the concepts camps though, and studied them. The truth is, he only took the tiny snips that were useful and dropped the rest. I believe he most certainly would have avoided wasting his time devolping rediculously unrealistic techniques based mostly on competition ideologies and wasted movement and energy.

As far as Inosanto fitting into JKD, well, I don’t think he does. Nor do I think Vunak or Burton does. They are both effective in their own ways–but Inosanto has left Jun Fan for flavor of the month profit, and Burton appears to be on his own cloud, inspired by Inosanto but not resembling Bree Lee’s art at all.

For more insight, go back and try to understand my previous post.

100

I have to stop working over time…

I find your second paragraph odd considering that besides Wing Chun that JF/JKD is made up of boxing, various kickboxing styles and sport fencing. So outside of the Wing Chun did Lee see any other non-sporting art fit for his street art?

I agree that Inosanto getting his black belt in BJJ does smell of flavor of the month. After all what’d he do, hand over a check, “roll” a couple of weeks and win some “close” ( :wink: :wink: nudge, nudge) matches against some BJJ blue belts? Yeah Dans a wanker all right.

“For more insight, go back and try to understand my previous post.”
I wish I could but obviously I’m not on the same developinated level as you. :smiley: