Why is there so much bashing on Shoalin-Do??
I don’t know much about it, but stop, All MAs are good,as long as they do what there supposed to do!!!
:mad:
SurferDude,
Thanx for the attempt, but its futile…
watch…
because people have some personal issues
ha. it seems that no matter how you’re arguing about SD that it’s set for a neverending discussion on the boards. you can be like Fupow and open several threads against the art or you can open up a thread telling others to stop *****ing about, and the cycle just keeps on going like the energizer bunny. 
now i’m about to get on the soapbox…
let me just say this. while i initially was upset to see what was being said about the art that i practice, i enjoy reading the often futile debates about the subject because they do bring out both the good and the bad characters and ideas among martial artists. and i’m not saying that the debates are futile b/c of the nature of the subject, but because of the nature of many of its participants. there can definitely be legitimate discourse and scrutiny about where the forms, culture, and history of an art comes from, but it has to be done with a matter of respect and open-mindedness.
these debates remind me of all the crazy late-night hours i spent in college debating or discussing religion. As a muslim, i was always asked by my peers (and enemies 
) to explain my religion, practices, and beliefs vis-a-vis other faiths as well as atheists. no matter who i had discussions with, and no matter what fallacies we believed the other side had (or may have had), we always brought them up and discussed them in a civilized manner. if you truly believe that something is phony, unless it is directly attacking you or threatening you, you will be wasting your time attacking its legitimacy in an antagonistic manner.
but to answer some of Fu Pow’s (some- somewhat legitimate) contentions), i will just briefly say (because this stuff is really already cluttering the forums’ mainframe, that SD students (at least in this forum) are not simply blind followers who do not know what the hell is going on and who refuse to dismiss any truth thrown at them. as JP, the meecer, bentmonk, et al have said, there is a very rich aspect to the evolution of chinese martial arts, especially given where the different practioners fled during times of threat. those chinese who fled to korea inevitably had different influences in their art than someone who just went to Taiwan or Vietnam. and the influences are not necessarily in the specific weapons or forms but in the way the system was organized, etc.
if you examine the SD websites carefully, you would understand that the SD curriculum was given a japanese flavor not necessarily to trick the Japs (not to be derogatory but just to save typing space :D), but perhaps to pacify some of the officials. that type of behavior was done since time immemorial with regard to anything, be it wushu evolving because of communist pressure, a writer who makes a bull-sh$t dedication to his dictator, etc. maybe the authorities were content with him giving a not so distinct chinese name to the art, as well as his incorporation of the japanese belt system (ie, a token adaptation of japanese culture into a chinese art). there are several older students (from my understanding) who have asked him to change the name to Shaolin-tao in order to avoid these pathetic debates, but he chooses not to out of commemoration of the history of SD’s development in indonesia (and the discrimation that the Chinese faced). now, i will give it to you that one might think that he would want to change it to chinese because of the discrimation, but that’s his perogative, and you can respect that or not.
the fact that he chooses not to change the name also shows that the name is not that important. who really gives a f*&8 if what I used to defend myself has a japanese name, even though it was created by Chinese (or Da Mo, or maybe even the pankrationers! there are chinese names for everything in the curriculum; some schools just don’t publish all of them, like just using Ippon Kumite. if you think about it for a second, getting past the name allows you to transcend all these miniscule tribal customs that can just hold a martial artist back from truly understanding the technique. on that note, maybe we should start a new thread, ‘what’s in a name?’
the only major point you have raised is the question of the temple, which is a good one and i will definitely be keeping an eye on the historical research. as for learning all the ‘styles,’ do remember that shaolin is often used in a very loose sense to include not only northern and southern styles but other kung fu styles that were learned throughout the different temples and travels). but as JP acknowledged, there is an element of myth to just about every art, which is not to say that we should just accept it, but it is also not a reason to simply discredit it and its practioners. i really hope this sheds some light, and i’m sorry to all who are sickened by these redundant discussions!
daamn, did i just type all this?? :eek: peace.
Shaolin-Do is a bunch of blah blah TROLL TROLL CURSE HERE, SCREAM AND YELL, CURSE SHAOLIN-DO, FAKE, BELTS, KARATE, KEMPO, NOT KUNG FU, CURSE CURSE CURSE! POINTLESS BICKERING! BLAH BLAH CURSE SWEAR SOME MORE, CURSE, CURSE! BICKER MORE!
It’s because the people are upset that the style is so freaking sucessful while having “questionable” lineage. Basically they are insecure about themselves, and can’t stand out Shaolin-Do has schools all over this country, and the schools have dozens upon dozens of adults there each night training. Whatever. I still say meet some of them before making judgement.
<quote> Japs (not to be derogatory but just to save typing space ) <quote>
hehe that sure save alot of typing space, as oppose to the long @ss word japanese :rolleyes:
Originally posted by PHILBERT
[B]Shaolin-Do is a bunch of blah blah TROLL TROLL CURSE HERE, SCREAM AND YELL, CURSE SHAOLIN-DO, FAKE, BELTS, KARATE, KEMPO, NOT KUNG FU, CURSE CURSE CURSE! POINTLESS BICKERING! BLAH BLAH CURSE SWEAR SOME MORE, CURSE, CURSE! BICKER MORE!
It’s because the people are upset that the style is so freaking sucessful while having “questionable” lineage. Basically they are insecure about themselves, and can’t stand out Shaolin-Do has schools all over this country, and the schools have dozens upon dozens of adults there each night training. Whatever. I still say meet some of them before making judgement. [/B]
OK, I’ve been avoiding the whole bashing of SD for a while, but this is exactly where I take issue.
An organisation with extremely questoinable lineage and curriculum is not harmless. They attract loads of students because they market something that they don’t have. Meanwhile, legitimate schools of kung fu suffer from fewer members because they are not willing to completely compromise their integrity like SD in order to turn a buck!
If SD were universally exposed for the lying sham that it is then those people would subsequently discover the real kung fu around them. That would be good for them and good for the teachers and students of the real kung fu.
In fact, the only people that it wouldn’t be good for are the people in SD with pocketsfull of $$$'s from the sham and marketing.
Do you get it yet?
Serpent.
If it isn’t SD than it will be some other style/kwoon that pops up and does the same thing.
There are people that are attracted to that type of stuff (large, many kwoons, in whatever town they are, etc).
Those are the same people that sign up at anything that calls itself a “World Gym” and than wear their t-shirts proudly, even though there is a hard-core gym for less down the road.
Personally I don’t think that they take much away from the good and traditional schools.
My take is if people wanna train there, let them do so.
We got the same thing even within the TJQ community Video correspondent certification, guys claiming this and that, 6mths~2yrs Teacher certificates, Ranks & testing with certificates, etc.
Let the people do waht they want to do.
Cheers.
I get it, I thought it before I sent my message, and I gotta agree and disagree.
It is choice, and teaching and wording. My last instructor did not have the seller’s edge. We taught street self defense, he let us wear WHATEVER we wanted (he even sometimes came to class in sandals and another guy came dressed like a Harley biker). People have to look at the instructor and feel comfortable with him/her. The instructor has to be soft spoken, well mannered, and have the “buy this” edge without you knowing it. My last instructor looked like 7*, big huge black guy with dreadlocks. Even when I first met him I was slightly intimidated. The guy was built like a house. We never had many students at his class because he didn’t have that soft spoken voice to sell the art.
Wheather or not you want to believe it, they are “selling” the art in some sense. In exchange for money you learn self defense. It isn’t bastardizing the art if you don’t let it be. Hence why alot of CMA schools tend not to do the sash system, because then you can’t claim black sash. Every time someone finds out I do a martial art, the first question is “What belt are you?”
My current Sifu is very soft spoken, not intimidating at all, very polite, and well mannered. People like him, when they meet him they don’t kind of give off this sense of “Man he is scary looking”. My school is full of students in every class, even though it is a little hard to find it. I got lost the first time I tried finding it, and it took weeks before I finally discovered the fastest way there from my house. There is no huge sign outside saying “KUNG FU!” like my old school had that you can see from the freeway. In fact, I drove past it twice and finally got out of my car before I found it. The only place it says “Kung Fu” is on the window in somewhat tiny letters. Is my school a McKwoon? No, it isn’t.
People are constantly joining the school, and I am constantly meeting new people who say “Yeah I’ve been here for 2 years” in my own style. He teaches 2 other classes too, and I haven’t met but a couple people from them. In fact, Sandman, BeiTangLang and I all practice at the same school, my Sifu posts on the Northern Mantis forum too.
The point is that people can find good Kung Fu, it depends on who is teaching it and how the person gives the first impression that determines who stays. As I said, my last instructor was a black guy with dreadlocks and huge muscles. People go in to the school expecting a old Asian man, or an older person with a soft voice. Not a muscular guy with dreadlocks who looks like he is still in college and in a gang. Schools succeed and schools fail on how they catch there clients.
If it isn’t SD than it will be some other style/kwoon that pops up and does the same thing.
Personally I don’t think that they take much away from the good and traditional schools.
The point is that people can find good Kung Fu
OK, here’s the thing. Sure, it isn’t just SD - it’s Temple KF, it’s Chung moo, etc. etc. That’s why those systems have had a thrashing here too. And I’m sure their time will come again. Anyone that’s been here for a while will know that.
However, if some Joe Public walks into a McGwoon and is fed the Shaolin-Do-esque spiel and doesn’t know any better HOW exactly is he or she going to find good kung fu? They’re being sold a lie and they don’t know any different. That’s why it’s up to others in the arts, with lots of experience, to try to educate the ignorant and the newbies. A lot of the time it’ll be a large dose of personal opinion, of course.
However, consider this - when just about everybody not in Shaolin-Do is trying to point out what a sham it is and only those doing Shaolin-Do are defending it, doesn’t that say a huge something? I don’t study Hung Gar, but if someone started slagging it off as a system I would defend it vehemently. Perhaps the teacher is bad but the system is sound. There are numerous other arts that I have not studied that I would defend.
That’s the beauty of the internet - we can expose the huckster.
It’s our duty to others that would follow the MA path.
Serpent.
My point being that many DON’T want to be in a real Kung Fu school and rather attend SD, Temple KF. Chung Moo, etc.
Because if they cared enough about learning real KF they would have done the proper research.
Chatting and slamming a few guys on a few Forums won’t get the word out to the average joe either who will walk into a McKwoon anyway.
Besides some fishy advertising and story-telling so far I haven’t seen anything online that convinces me that they teach bad KF or that their students lack fighting ability.
How many “renowned/traditional/authentic” masters are out there whose students couldn’t fight their way out of a wet & torn paper-bag. I know of quiet a few.
Lineage and having studied under a known Master does not guarantee that the student is good or has skill.
FWIW, TJQ has one of the strangest origins theories and some call my style not even TJQ, or doubt that our founder even had anything to do with the founding of the style.
So is my Sifu who is a lineage holder now a fraud and fake??
Naturally we won’t get to see eye-to-eye here or convince the other.
Serpent…
Let your anger be like a monkey in a pinata(sp).
Hiding in the candy, trying not to get hit by the children.
Edit: Of course SD students can fight their way out of a paper bag. Just look at this
Isn’t it cute?
Question: How many of you bashers have actually met a real SD student?
Question: How many of you are basing your ridicule on videos that us fellow SDers are ridiculing as well?
Originally posted by PHILBERT
[B]Shaolin-Do is a bunch of blah blah TROLL TROLL CURSE HERE, SCREAM AND YELL, CURSE SHAOLIN-DO, FAKE, BELTS, KARATE, KEMPO, NOT KUNG FU, CURSE CURSE CURSE! POINTLESS BICKERING! BLAH BLAH CURSE SWEAR SOME MORE, CURSE, CURSE! BICKER MORE!
It’s because the people are upset that the style is so freaking sucessful (suck-ses-pool?)
Successful as in Karate Kid, huh? Ba wa ha ha ha, go back to Shaolin -do, “make u a deal.” says Shadow & shaolin-do[/COLOR
while having “questionable” lineage. Basically they are insecure about themselves, and can’t stand out Shaolin-Do has schools all over this country, and the schools have dozens upon dozens of adults there each night training. Whatever. I still say meet some of them before making judgement. [/B]
“make u a deal.” says Shadow & shaolin-doSuccessful as in Karate Kid, huh? Ba wa ha ha ha, go back to Shaolin -do, “make u a deal.” says Shadow & shaolin-do[/COLOR
frauds need a good bashing sometimes. i however do not have that much time to waste. i have never met a shaolin-do person and likely i never meet one will since i do not live in the southern states. i figure they are much more normal than the “temple kung fu” guys we have up north. as a note i am from the original temple kung fu city, and have visited the original school. my mom actually was a nurse and met o.e. simon. those jokers make SD look like authenticity at its finest.
While I think that it may be obvious to some of us what SD is just by looking at it, it’s a little more challenging to put into words why SD is a fraudulent organization, in a manner that the common person will understand. If anyone’s serious about discrediting Shaolin-Do I would sugest a well researched FAQ type page going into detail with specifics and sources listed. And make sure all things within shaolin-do that are attacked come from as close to Sin The as possible(could start with his book and go from there 
). Posting an argument that starts with “HEY YOU WUSSIES!!!” isn’t going to convince any nuetral bystander or Shaolin-Do person no matter how solid the rest of your arguement is Same goes for tearing apart any other fraudulent organization.
Ok, neit has never met a SDer, so he needs to keep his mouth shut, because he doesn’t know squat. What was your answer there Brad? Have you met one? If not, you keep your mouth shut as well.
Harsh? Maybe. But I am getting very tired of these experts on SD who have never met a SDer.
themeecer,
How would meeting an SD practicioner convince someone that Sin The’ is not lying about the styles’ association with Shaolin?
No one is questioning your attitude, training regiment, or ability to apply what you have learned. They are questioning your Grandmaster’s somewhat outrageous claims, which for the most part, contradict what every other CMA in the world has been taught. And since you are part of his organization, his actions reflect on you, which is why you are targeted and singled out.
Now, I’ve jumped on this myself in the past, and frankly I’m weary of the argument.
But even within your own organization, there are conflicting reports of such things as Ie’s death date, who and what forms were originally learned by whom, and Sin’s relationship with his teacher. Add to that the Japanese influence, the book written by The’, the accepted history of Fukien Temple, and the insistence that Shaolin-Do is Kung Fu while your own in-house tournament is referred to as “Sin The’s Karate Open,” and, well, you can see where the disagreement comes from. Heck, people in SD are even confused about whether Sin has a plaque or statue at Shaolin. Somewhere, communication within your own organization has broken down.
I realize attacking the SD organization is, either directly or indirectly, an insult to you and those who practice it. But at the same time, you can’t really say that the legitimate arguments posed by the CMA community are unfounded. No one here is going to prove the argument to a reasonable degree to anyone else on either side, but the issue is a valid topic; however, we should be able to discuss this without all the name calling and posturing.
Honestly, the lies more or less most likely add up to marketing strategy. “karate”… Yeah, use of the word drives me nuts too, but what of the hsing I, Bagua, and Taiji?
Ok, who are you and what have you done with Master Killer? Lol.
Many are using the argument that SD looks like karate, even the ones that have never met a SDer. I have a problem with that. I also have a problem with people viewing bad examples of film clips as authentic SD. We sit around and make fun of those videos as well.
Almost all of the other points have been addressed sufficiently. I will get back to you on the Fukien temple one. I have read reports that go either way on that (And that is disregarding all SD sites)
I also have a problem with people viewing bad examples of film clips as authentic SD.
Two responses.
1). Those clips on the Atlanta site are pretty bad.
2). When have you ever seen any clip, regardless of style, be praised here? Everyone here is an expert at how and why someone else sucks.