Final Report/ Thank You All

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
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This is my final disposition on the questions i posed people in my post titling"a serious Question"for research purposes.

   Whatever YOU think Shaolin-Do is or Want It to Be,,,,IT IS. 
    That being said, i will now give you my views on this subject and reply to all of you on this matter.    What IS shaolin-Do( To Me)?

Note; this is not the feeling of all my bretheren in the school. I speak only for myself and do not want this to be interpreted as a disrespect to ANYONE OR ANYTHING regarding Shaolin,Shaolin-DO, or students of Any Martial art.
We Can and we will debate the existence of lineages and school’s and styles and how they are taught until the end of time. This has been going on for centuries by teachers, students ,masters and the like. WE all WILL NOT agree upon everything so we will have to AGREE to DISAGREE on certain subjects regarding lineage, material,and above all CONTENT of the Shaolin-Do Curriculum.
Shaolin-Do is a system of martial arts that encompasses the techniques,forms,internal/external aspects of chinese and japanese martial arts. Our Grandmaster has taken the teachings of his grandmaster and has, in his own way, made the art HIS ART. (HE is successful in doing so).
Shaolin-Do’s roots go to the Southern temple in Fujian. The evolution of the art then goes to Indonesia and then here to America. Grandmaster Sin has done this ALL his life.
Shaolin-do’s ranking system is that of the japanese belt system.(belts did not come into play until the turn of the last century when the need for individual rank and accomplishment was needed to keep those who are unaware of the true dedication that martial arts requires(ANY MARTIAL ART) in the school. its about buisiness and economics and ego.) Belts and ranking mean NOTHING TO ME. however,AUTHORITY DOES AND SO DO MY ELDERS AS WELL. Grandmaster Sin is an authority figure AND an elder and i respect and honor the man for his accomplishments.

To answer the question about our FORMS< KATAS<TECHNIQUES. They are COMBAT oriented forms__(which are more choppy and more hard style than FORMS THAT ARE USED FOR SHOW AND PERFORMANCE. OUR forms are used for FIGHTING. that is the external aspect of what we Teach.
The internal/which is my path in this school. We teach *Tai-chi, *Pa-Kua ,*Hsing-i ,Chi-kung meditation. these *systems did not come from the temple but were later adopted in to the shaolin temple AS WAS ALOT OF OTHER THINGS,ie; mantis, drunken, eagleclaw, etc etc.
what was unique about the temple were the i-chin ching muscle/tendon changing classics,the 5 fists and other sets relating to those that i have mentioned…Shaolin temple was a university of martial arts knowlege NOT ALL OF IT ORIGINATING THERE BUT WINDING UP THERE AND THE OTHER TEMPLES AS WELL.

As for blending the elements of japanese style fighting into the shaolin curriculum we have; i will pose this statement in a question:

what is tae kwon-DO? ,jeet kune DO? Kempo?
tuk kong musel? Cha yon ryu? BJJ? are these not all hybrid systems that incorporate many styles in to them to create an effective way of fighting? these are ALL successful schools tae kwon do being the most successful and why? MONEY? yes. catering to americans so that hey will understand? yes. fighting effectiveness?(matter of opinion).
as for the claims that grandmaster sin has claimed with respect to his knowlege and his abilities. so far i have not been provided with ANY documantation to tell me other wise,when i posted this i wanted FACT not OPINIONS and not alot of CONJECTURE and guessing. with that in mind i will have to assume that what all nay sayers say about Grandmaster Sin, comes from nothing more than the centuries of gabbing and ego posturing and mud slinging that has gone on in politics ,martial arts and evrything else that is of interest to the masses.

As for the "tainting of Shaolin"  what has been tainted?   Are the forms that all of you learn the ORIGINALS AS IT WAS TAUGHT IN THE 500'S ON UP?  YOU HAVE ALL ,,IM SURE HAVE HEARD THE SAYING THAT "THINGS CHANGE WITH TIME" Animals ,Plants, Humans, Technology,,,,,,,,FORMS?

every master will do the forms in his/her own way and teach it in his/her own way and live it in his/her own way. There is how it was Taught and then how it is interpreted and then repeated.

Final statemant from me to all my martial arts bretheren and the sisters as well: I RESPECT WHAT ALL OF YOU DO HERE IN THIS COUNTRY, ALL THE SCHOOLS AND ALL THE TEACHERS AND MASTERS(REGARDLESS) OF WHAT IT IS THAT IS TAUGHT. MY RESPECTS GO OUT TO YOU, I DONT TRASH OTHER SYSTEMS AND OTHER WAYS. i do have my doubts about the shaolin monks at shaolin temple. that i have not kept a secret,for many reasons having todo with POLITICS,NOT THE ART OR THE MARTIAL ABILITIES OF ANYONE THERE. As for challenges and fights and what we have seen and not seen and what we have heard,each one of us is different in the way we train ,fight, live. some are good and some arent,especially in our school,we have those who need help and they get it there. they dont get ousted or beat up or made fun of.we laugh at times but it is better than being angry and hurting them.
That is who we are and what we do at Shaolin-Do.
WE RESPECT,OURSELVES THE ANCIENT ARTS AND ABOVE ALL WE RESPECT OUR GRANDMASTER NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK OF HIM.
MANY RESPECTS, WILLOW SWORD. (Jason Bratcher 2nd degree black belt, instructor/internalist 15 yrs a student of martial arts.)

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ALSO

THAT RESPECT AND HONORORING I SPEAK OF DEFINATELY TRANSFERS TO MY PREVIOUS TEACHER MASTER ERIC NESSEN (DIFFERENT SCHOOL) AND MY CURRENT MASTER AND TEACHER/MENTOR MASTER JOE SHAEFER OF AUSTIN TEXAS WHERE I HAVE SPENT THE LAST 6YRS UNDER HIS DIRECTION. I NOW RESIDE IN NEW MEXICO .
AGAIN ,MANY RESPECTS,WILLOW SWORD

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One question

Can you fight? My experience in fighting You guys tells me the answer is no. Above all else Shaolin practioners are respected for their fighting ability. Perhaps I’m jaded. I studied Shaolin-Do for about a year, then I stumbled onto a real Shaolin school and my eyes were opened. In comparison it like night and day. On one had you have your point sparring tounement training with some trumped up Qi Qong parlor tricks(Shaolin Do)and on the other hand you have kupshhhhhhaahhh! Nothing but a can a whoop ass. Serious fighting technique serious weapons work no belts.

To each, his own. No disrespects

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While this is not a perfect measure…

Try entering a traditional wushu tournament. See what the judges there think of your forms and your san da.

You may find this – interesting.

Frankly, no one cares what you beleive. It is just that CMA practitioners are tired of seeing karate carry the CMA name.

I’ve seen you guys and a good buddy of mine, whose Longfist skills I highly respect, visited a school that belongs to your group in Las Vegas. What he was amazed by was - what the school did not know and could not do.

No offense intended. Just try opening your eyes.

You can go on teaching wehat you are teaching, but now you too are propagating a lie. How does that feel?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

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to reemul and monkey slap

Reemul: YES I CAN FIGHT?

Monkeyslap: i dont go to competitions or tournaments: why? becuase i am not interested in
tournaments and competition, i dont have the same ego you have. as for continuing a lie?
i disagree with you.
many respects, willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.

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Hmm, ego isn’t realy the question. It’s more like ‘Gee, Mssrs Yang, Choi, Chan, Lin, Tsou, et al - I have been told what I do is Shaolin. How come it looks nothing like it and is devoid of all the methods and body language? Why does it move/act like karate? Why do you keep patting my head and tell I’m a good boy, now please go away…’

THAT is the purpose of checking out a tournament. And please, a national level one like Jeff Bolt’s - okay?

I’m just trying to help.

As far as the lie. Who is in worse shape - the first to lie or those that beleive the lie?

No amount of deconstructionist argument can save you from the truth. :eek:

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

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monkeyslap too

Well i respect your views even though i disagree with them. You do what you do and i do what i do.
like i said before your ego is different than mine,i personally am not concerned with impressing upon anyone my forms or techniques,that is a martial arts code that is rarely followed nowadays.
Many Respects,Willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.

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Okay, I give up…

You know Willow, I just don’t think your getting it. Its not about ego - heck its not even about me or the stuff I do. I do not recall even once mentioning that you had to do anything I do. And it is certainly is not about you. Other than the fact that you choose to stick your head in the sand on this. Which is admirable (?) I guess, in the context of the weight of information against your position.

I’m curious where you get the idea that there is some martial code about leaving others alone. While I myself teach a disciplined approach to avoiding trouble and seeking harmony, history is certainly against me on this. Martial artists have always sought to prove themselves in combat and over each other. That is how they acheived thier goals. Note, that no one here is doing that. We are simply concerned about the lies propagated by the SD organization.

In simpler terms I don’t care if you do Tae Bo and call it ancient Shaolin secrets. I just wish you did not because it sets a very bad example. How? By propagating a lie.

After all, we know that the SD code puts you above us all, and you wouldn’t want to stoop to our lower, unenlightened level and see for yourself by asking legitimate CMA teachers to review your SD ‘stuff’. :wink:

And, as I find with most of my delightful interchanges with you, I must stop, otherwise you won’t. So - I give up. Good luck on your path, and thanks for not calling me ‘son’ this time. I appreciate it.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

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The Willow Sword wrote:
"Shaolin-Do is a system of martial arts that encompasses the techniques,forms,internal/external aspects of chinese and japanese martial arts. Our Grandmaster has taken the teachings of his grandmaster and has, in his own way, made the art HIS ART. (HE is successful in doing so).
Shaolin-Do’s roots go to the Southern temple in Fujian. The evolution of the art then goes to Indonesia and then here to America. "
You can (and probably will) take this as one SD student backing up another (not that I feel TWS needs MY help), but he basically seemed to say that SD is a blending of multiple arts. A traditional shaolin practicioner would be unqualified to judge it by this definition.
MonkeyslapToo…if he TEACHES that SD is a mix of styles would you still feel he was “propagating a lie”?
What if TWS got his start in SD and then moved on to study ALSO with another internal instructor…not in the SD organization (which he may have done, who knows)? Would his art in your mind still forever be tainted by studying SD?
In my immeadiate area the only martial instruction is Japanese, Korean, or Shaolin-do…would someone that TRULY wanted to learn a CMA be better off studying the almost entirely linear arts, or studying SD which has quite a few “indirect” movements and delves into the internal aspects? I’m just curious as to what your feelings are about these questions.
Respectfully,

Radhnoti

-Radhnoti

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Tough one Radhnoti…

It would depend on the choices. If Judo was one of them, I would take that.

The tricky thing about CMA is that the stuff that really defines it is very easy to get ‘wrong’. (Keep in mind that there are probably 600 variations of ‘right’) The SD stuff I have seen messes up your body english so much, that I do not see practicing it as any better than doing the Japanese or Korean stuff. Well, who knows, maybe it is a little better depending on the quality of the Japanese and or Korean instructors. Actually, for that matter, given those three choices, I’d probably go to a community college and take wrestling or boxing.

If Sin practiced these other arts elsewhere, he sure did it with someone who wasn’t very good. If you doubt me, seek out an expert that everyone agrees is one - like Chen Xioawang or Wai Lun Choi or Li Tai Liang and show them your ‘internal’ stuff. You’ll be – enlightened. Oh, and the reason these teachers are respected outside of thier group is because they can back up thier claims. Something Sin may not be able to do.

As far as TWS going outside for instruction - that would be great. If he finds a legit teacher. I’d wish him the best. However, he masy find his SD material less and less important as he learned his new stuff. Or, he just gets bits and pieces and layrers it into his SD - which would be unfortunate.

In my eyes no one is ‘tainted’. Everyone changes and grows. But it takes a special courage to be able to see and set aside lies that you beleived for a decade or more. I have seen that with the Chung Moo Quan students in my hometown.

This brings up an extra point - some Chinese teachers do see a ‘taint’ when you do outside arts - for instance I started in Judo and have also practiced Phillipino and Indonesian arts. But I do not claim that these things are CMA. Just stuff that works. Therein lies the difference, I think.

On the other hand, MA is often a social activity as well, and if thats your bag (NOTHING wrong with that in my book) maybe the SD people are cool to hang with.

I’d just be concerned about the willingness to lie and defraud. I just think if someone is willing to lie about some things to get your money, don’t you think they will lie about others? The SD organization propagates these lies. Korean martial arts are also famous for this, and the press has begun to squeeze the truth out of those liers of late. Why lie? Unless you hopev to defraud students and milk them for thier money. I am just old fashioned I guess. I still think that honesty matters.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

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One more thing

If TWS is honest and says what he teaches is a bunch of stuff from a fake CMA group and then other stuff he learned, I agree, he would not be propagating a lie.

Another thought - you become like those you associate with. Do you want to be a lier to?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

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Monkeyslap too

I must reply to this phrase that you keep using.
(Legitimate CMA teachers)
i have ,IN FACT,studied with a LEGITAMATE CMA teacher before i joined the SD school. his name is Eric nessen and was a student of Master JOHN ENG, who taught praying mantis and pakua and hsing-i. i was a private student of his for several years before having to move back to texas to pursue at the time a career in physical therapy. i was in louisville KY (where i am from originally) and where i trained with master Nessen. before that i was a student of CHA YON RYU which is a branch of kim soo karate under the direction of john blankenship,before that i was studying KI-AIKIDO(seminars and clinics under teachers such as joeseph birdsong ,mark cartwright and others) this is going way back to when i was a teeneager. SO Monkey slap i have a broad experience in japanese and chinese styles.
the fact that i am in a school that blends the two and focuses more on the chinese aspect and lineage fits with what i have been doing…in any regard i know the “LEGITAMATE CMA” world you describe. i truly apologize to you and others who feel so inclined to put SD down and assume that lies are being told to you. If you KNOW these claims to be lies then you must have DOCUMENTED PROOF to put forth to substantiate YOUR CLAIMS.
WHERE IS IT? SHOW IT TO ME. OPEN MY EYES.
i want footage of how these lies you say are proved, you continue to tell me to go to wushu tournaments or to compete and to open my eyes. WELL MY EYES ARE OPEN MONKEY SLAP ,SHOW IT TO ME. since you care so much about telling me and others as well SHOW ME THE PROOF. i dont want to hear that the proof is in what he says becuse it is impossible what he claims and all that BS. PROVE TO ME THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A SCHOOL SUCH AS OURS TO HAVE LINEAGE AT THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE.. PROVE TO ME THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE LEARNED 900 FORMS/TECHNIQUES IN 30 YRS+ WHEN WE AS HUMANS CAN LEARN AND REMEMBER WORDS AND PHRASES THAT ECLIPSE THAT NUMBER. THEY ARE SEQUENCES JUST LIKE FORMS ARE ,JUST PHYSICAL, COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS HAVE TO LEARN 10 TIMES THAT MUCH INFO WHEN WORKING WITH CODE AND THEY HAVE REFERENCES TO DO SO,SO TO DO MA MASTERS,THEY HAVE IT WRITTEN DOWN OR ON VIDEO TAPE. re-read my above first post. we will have to agree to disagree on the subject,but what gets me is that you continue to throw mud in my direction when i dont even judge your styles legitamacy or lineage. it makes you look like another a$$ hole with an ego agenda standing on high with your hard on and your “legitimate cma teacher certification”. OPEN YOUR EYES. you are not the only one who teaches kung-fu and ill bet that there are some holes in your lineage as well and some things worth questioning. how do you know that what you have been taught is the “truth or legitimate” ?cause your teacher told you it was so,cause you read it in a book years ago,cause you have a document to prove it? cause some little old man in china told you when you went to visit? well monkey we all have documents to prove or disprove it all dont we? lets look into your back ground and scrutinize it, shall we? and we unenlightened souls at SD will bend over for you to follow you in the ultimate grand school that is the TRUE WAY. YES ITS MONKEYSLAPS SCHOOL OF (what was it that you claim to be a teacher of?) help me out here guys,lets here this guys credentials,ill bet they are SOLID AS a c/rock arent they? enlighten me to the true way monkey slap.
Many respects,willow sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.

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Whee…

First off, I never claimed to be the end all, be all expert. I just think the SD group is deluded. So does just about EVERYONE else who has practiced CMA.

My primary credentials? Chang Tung Sheng to Dr. Brian Wu to me. Chang shia stuff mostly. Bwah-ha-ha-ha. Oh man, I don’t really care about lineage, just content, but in the CMA world it does not get more solid than THAT. But then, you SD guys don’t tend to care for actual history that can be backed up by other witnesses outside your own group. You know how those funny smart people at universities do? The issue here is that Chang Tung Sheng and Dr. Wu never had to make up stories to get the public interested.

Grow up already. You keep assuming I am some kind of ego maniac. TWS - you don’t know me. Don’t even to presume to think you do. I am not attacking you personally. I am merely concerned about the propagation of falsehood. 'nuff said.

Your background sounds like fun. So how did you end up buying into the SD party line?

Another thought - you are trying really hard. Doth the lady protest too much? (no cross dressing inference intended. It’s a famous quote from Shakespeare. He’s a guy who wrote things that OTHER people besides himself and his followers thought was good.)

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

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you dont know me either

and yes CONTENT shows alot in a martial artist but CONTENT does not mean the legitamcy of lineage or forms or how authentic the forms look.
“the propogation of falsehood” still waiting for that PROOF. send it to me,you can e-mail me, how old are you might i add?,and how long in CMA’s? Also did your masters teach you to disrespect other schools and thier histories? given that what they have told you is the truth. how much money do they make with thier teaching and how long have they been teaching in this country?
the reason i ask is because this solidness that you say you have with your credentials must turn a great profit… it must be a big school with lots and lots of students following. when did your teachers come to this country? what year?

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.

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TWS,

You so called “research” into Shaolin Do’s legitimacy was completely non objective and incomplete. Have you tried asking Sin The himself where he learned the various Taiji styles? Or where the other non-temple arts came from? Many of these were family styles passed down from generation to generation. How could Sin The or his teacher learn all this material and yet not one of these familys will vouch for him?

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brad

my research was to find out why so many trash his name and school. in answer to your query about family systems. during the tyranny of the chings and the japanese incursions,many people were killed or fled never to be heard from again,
so shaolin history is sketchy at best, since it was destroyed and rebuilt several times. but that is irrelevant to this,as far as asking grandmaster Sin about where his styles come from.
he clearly states it in his book,regardless of whether you think it is a false hood or true,is of no consequence to me. we happen to have a history that traces back to southern temple in fujian. you know all this typing is geting a bit tiresome,lets all CHAT in the CHAT room if you want to,lets set a time and i will be there and we can talk there so that responses and questions will flow more easily,ILEAVE IT YOU GUYS .
Many respects, willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.

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Examples

  1. Trace back to Fujian but nothing in it resembles fujian martial arts. You can spend 100 years learning Shaolin Do and still not understand the basics of fujian arts… that is a contradiction if ever there was one.

  2. In records of fujian (there have been salvaged ones) there is no recollection of the hairy teacher. He has no monks title. Also there were no such things as the number of styles being ridiculously claimed.

  3. As an example the taiji is a form CREATED in the 50’s so how could it have been in the temple. Not only done ridiculously incorrectly, even a 3 month new student understands more than a teacher of shaolin Do

  4. Regarding Mr. The doing it all his life…well a cook may have been cooking all his life for his family and think he was a good cook and even his family may think so but realistically without the true training he is nothing but a lousy cook who has a family that has become accustomed to the taste!

and much more

Note that “when drowning in mud all one sees is mud and then accepts that mud is all there is ! not realising the world is over and above mud they don’t try and get out , they only sink and drown never knowing the beauty of the world”

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Got some beach front property in Arizona for you TWS!

Yes, and I have all the secret notes and lineage charts hidden away from infidels in my attic passed down to me by my shaggy real estate agent.

You know TWS I feel sorry for you because living here in Lexington I’ve seen people like you time and time again…some keep their heads in the sand, some move on to legitimate schools, most just become bitter and drop out of martial arts all together. I’ve seen the horrible karate-like Pakua & Tai Chi, in fact when I asked a 3rd degree SD black belt to show me some combat applications of either style he couldn’t, he didn’t think there were any for Tai Chi! I’ve seen your long forms like Si Men Tao Lain, Fei Hu Zhu Tong, Tai Peng Sin Kune, Lohan Chuan, etc. and I’m here to tell you they are not CMA forms and if they where even derived from CMA any similarities and principals have long been discarded in favor of that robot like way you all do your forms. You see in kung fu the forms flow they are not done in the choppy 1-2-3 way that SD does them. Did you know that Sin The used to call his style Karate? In fact his first club was the UK Karate Club founded back in the 60’s. It’s still a Shaolin Do club today with one of The’s first black belts still teaching what they call Chinese Karate. Or how about The’s top guy (look in your “Secrets from the Temple” bible & you’ll know who I mean)his son is a black belt and a local joke for how many times he’s been beaten up. You see the thing is everyone around here knows some body who got a black belt from the main SD McKwoon here and the skills they churn out are of such a low level that they are not taken seriously by anyone, even those not involved in martial arts.
So you see you have a problem…everyone, from all different backgrounds from all different places from all diferent styles are telling you the same thing so either wise up and listen or quit asking because the only people who are going to tell you what you want to hear are other SD people.
Also, it’s John Ng, not Eng and I don’t think he teaches Mantis anyway.

“Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao”

  • When you talk with the hands,
    best not to speak of polite hands.
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I’d love to chat. Name a time and I’ll try to be there.

20

Wheeee

You know WTS, I never had to pay a dime for my training under Dr. Wu. I paid in other ways, sure, but he never earned any money off of teaching. He teaches because he loves his art. And frankly, I have tried to teach it publicly. It is simply a little rough for the average citizen to deal with.

As this is NOT about me or my ‘style’, lets look again at your argument:

Sure content is important. The content of your art should reflect CMA principles. SD simply does not.

The hairy guy that is supposedly a Shaolin master? Do a little research and you’ll see just how pathetic an attempt at building a false history Sin The’ tried.

The other fellows put it best. YOur maerial is not fujian, and often it is a poor version of modern methods. Your history does not hold up.

Decondstructionist arguments do not work. You must supply additional reference that is outside your little group. Otherwise your defense of the SD history is no better than the claim that the Incans and the Egyptians were the same people because they each had two words in thier language that sound the same.

Okay, pick a chat time. I’m game. Lets get all your friends together.

To be honest, I am not pursueing this out of maliciousness towards you. I could care less about you. It is your students and the image of CMA that concerns me.

If you really want history on my ‘style’ go to David Lin’s (not the one that advertises in IKF) American Combat Shuai Chiao Association website. There is some info there.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.