Final Report/ Thank You All

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
21

as i keep saying

show me the proof. Now lets drop the subject of the lineage and the history for a moment and lets discuss the forms and the techniques themselves.
my experience goes back before i joined the shaolin do school. in my experience in training and in forms and what not the emphasis in the beginning is to teach the steps in a 1-2-3 fasion,the forms were given to you in incriments so that you could learn the steps. when the form is taught out in its entirety to the beginner then the student has a base through which he/she can make the form his/her own. most of the students i have seen in SD have not yet been able to round out the square been given to them. when i say that i mean that the square aspect of the form is there for you to round out yourself. now given that our forms are choppy indicates to me thatr they are of a fighting origin focusing on power first then flow later. that aspect takes time to learn. whether its CMA or JMA or a MIX of both, the fundamentals are taught first. the lower forms you speak of in the Sd curriculum give you an area for which to work given your own limitations. this is the way it has been done ans has been the most successful way of teaching a form to anyone. plus COMBAT oriented forms that i have seen in china(home video) are similar to the method that we do them. as for body mechanics in relation to the forms being taught. could you teach a 50 yr old man who has never been in a martial art the dance like forms that his body might not be able to do becuase of age and tightness of ligaments in his body? or would you teach him,aside from stretching and all,a form that caters to his body mechanics? its basic at first then can be rounded out later,but that depends on the teacher and also YOUR willingness to want to do it as well. i have seen alot of wushu forms and they look real pretty,but in my opinion have no basis for reality in fighting. remember this is not a wushu world we live in and it is definately not a choreographed movie. All of you can bash the system and GM sin till you reach orgasm boys.
if this is an issue of fighting ability then it only makes my point that all you guys care about is fighting kicking ass and looking cool.
we all support outr teachers and we all are successful at what we do. SO you guys think GM Sin is lying about everything.
WELL Lets chat,i will be on tonight around 7 pm new mexico time so adust your time accordingly. hey it will just be me there,whom ever wishes to be there thats cool.
oh and for the correction on the spelling of master john ng’s name “thankyou”
many respects, willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.

22

SHAOLIN THIS AND SHAOLIN THAT!

Like Bruce Lee said of JKD:
" It’s just a name, please don’t fuss over it."
None of us will ever truly know enough about the
Shaolin Arts or if our styles are completely authentic. But through the guidance of our collective Sifu, we can preserve the spirit of
Gong-Fu. And what a hard task it is!

23

bai he

THANKYOU!

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.

24

Bai He, you are right. But it is not the Shaolin name I am really concerned about. It is CMA in general.

Willow, I like you. I’ll do my best to be online. That will most likely be near the end of my commute, so I may be late or miss you. In that case, I’ll try to reschedule.

And, I can see your argument. However here are some thoughts:

Choppy to ‘dance like’. Nope. Not it. Sure, many styles issue power issueing and teach moves one at a time. But that still does not explain the SD body language. It is just not the same.

Wushu world? Wushu is Mandarin for martial arts. It is also the word for modern performance martial arts. While I agree that Wushu is not as good for fighting as traditional stuff, I know some Wushu guys that would love to try you out. They tend to disagree with you. For that matter, why dislike Wushu when your Taiji set is a recent invention?

JMA and CMA (especially Shaolin) principles don’t mix. Training one does not help you to learn the other, no matter what your limitations are. I know a Shaolin guy who had ten years of Karate first. He is the first to admit that after 20 years he hasn’t learned how to issue power properly because of his Karate training. (Although he is a tough bird :wink: )

The fundamentals of your style should reflect the end result. For instance, do your warm ups work motions that are specific to your style? Or do you practice Western calisthenics?

Also - going back to the statement about learning hundreds of forms: memorizing choreography is not the same as learning a form and really understanding it. The Chinese have a word for practitioners who do not have ‘kung fu’ in thier forms: Flowery arms, brocade leg. It means you do not know the content of your sets.

I simply do not beleive that your curriculum is sensical. Several of these styles contradict each other in strategy, tactics and body method. You can learn gross choreography, but you won’t get the ‘kung fu’.

If fighting is all we care about, and you are above all that. Call Shaolin Do something other than a martial art. Maybe Wushu Calesthenics? If you do not understand how to fight with your art, you are not getting the other benefits.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

25

Question for willow sword

How many forms does Shaolin Do have?

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com

26

shaolin dynasty

there are alot of forms in the biginning curriculum,but they are very short and to the point. when you reach brown belt the forms get longer and more complex in movement. MONKEY SLAP. what is the proper body mechanics for fighting some one? do you have to be this gyrating video game to fight? whether or not its japanese forms or chinese forms makes no difference. in fact the karate aspect helps witht e focusing of power and the chinese aspect givies it the fluidity it needs to work. ,
i have seen wushu guys go to karate tournaments to prove that thier style is superior and they get their ass kicked,the karate guy waits and watches while the wushu gut throws out his bag of tricks and then POP!! down he goes.
ive also seen karate guys go to kung-fu tournaments and get thier ass disqualified becuase they were “too rough” on the wushu guys dancing around. i have sparred wushu guys,alot of darting in and out and in and out,wasting thier energy trying to act like a tiger or mantis
and POP!! down they go. see my thing monkey slap is hsingi and pakua. i might take the stance of a mantis or something else but when it comes down to the contact thn its no nonsense and BAP! down you go. sparring is fun but it is cat and mouse to me ,it is vital to beginners but for me (15yrs) into it i take it to the next level,AND THAT DOES NOT MEAN AN ALL OUT BRAWL!
GOOD MARTIAL ARTISTS WILL KNOW HOW TO CONTROL THEMSELVES. AS I DO. any way sorry i was not in the chat room i had troublw ith my computer and had to fix it,but i am back upo and running so lets schedule a time,you set the time folks and ill be there.
Many respects,willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.

27

All Shaolin do forms move the same way, while true CMA styles all have different princibles of movement for there forms. When you throw them all together into one system and add in karate on top of that it becomes Who were these wushu guys? I mean, where were they competing? Modern wushu players should train very similar to traditional CMA. Honetsly, I doubt you could tell the difference between a beginer level modern Changquan routine and traditional longfist. And modern wushu fighting is full contact. The VERY few modern wushu guys I know of whove fought in karate tournements have dominated. Very Any way, my first wushu coach has beaten both karate and jujitsu guys. Also most modern wushu fighters fight with a kickboxing type style called San Shou. They wouldn’t be jumping around like a mantis or monkey. Well, there is one exception that I’ve heard of. I’ve been told a tournement in DC was won by a former Beijing Wushu Team member, who used a lot of his monkey style to basically toy with the poor karate guys. It was a while back though.

28

Brad…

This guy is delusional. I reccomend ignoring him until he goes away. ‘Legend in his own mind’ and all that.

Or - we could invite the SD guys to come play San Da or NHB :slight_smile: ?

I know a couple clubs that would LOVE to play.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

29

Maybe someday :wink: I have to let my knee heal first though. Tore my ACL & MCL in forms competition August last year and it’s still healing :frowning: Actually a friendly fight would probably do a lot of good to eleminate misconceptions about wushu fighting and we’d get to see Shaolin Do live in action. A couple friends from my wushu class just started the San Shou training(I’m so jealous :mad: )…

30

monkey and brad

first of all,monkey,go to your post on reality training and you will get the reason why i went off like that,it was to prove a point. i am not like that at all.
as for brad,and for the rest of you,
I KNOW that what i have trained in over the last 15 yrs has been solid,i am a good teacher and a damn good martial artist. i dont claim to be a master of anything. but i can throw down,and i can meditate with the best of them.
You all will think what you want to about SD and the students teachers and masters.
like i said before these debates on style authenticity and lineage have gone on for centuries before we were ever born,it’s one big ole god damned soap opera starring US(as in ALL of us) if any of you ever meet me you will see why i have dedicated myself to martial arts and why i defend the common principles. I am AN internalist. i will be living in TAOS NEW<MEXICO
at the end of the month,any of you ever get up that way,drop by and visit(this is NOT a challenge for a fight). i will not tolerate violence and confrontations at the yoga center there OR the park. and niether will the town. my door is always open and i am a listed person in the phone book,i have nothing to hide or PROVE
except that most of you are the most disrespectful
people that i have ever come across in the martial arts world,i would hope to have shared ideas and knowlegde and all i get here is trolls and insults. as for monkey slap: continue to do what you do and prosper at it. as i have stated before,I HAVE RESPECT FOR ALL OF YOUR SCHOOLS AND TEACHERS AND SYSTEMS THEREIN. it would be nice if you all would be the same way towards me and other SD students and teachers who frequent this forum to engage in FRIENDLY communications.
many respects,Willow Sword(jason bratcher 2nd degree black belt disciple Shaolin-do martial arts academy)

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.

31

Booo!!!

What is going on Willow sword usually you have good info in your comments are you getting fustrated or something? How is someone from a style called Shaolin Do(and with tons of animal forms) going to make fun of the animal styles of CMA? Can you give me a number on the forms? I heard it was over 100 from some people and some say over 900 just want to get my facts straight. Why do Shaolin Do guys always want to start up arguments about their history? They know it will be just a huge mess, maybe they just like controversy.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com

32

TWS,

You asked why people bash your grandmaster and we answeard. Why people don’t like him:

1.Grandmaster Sin The has lied about his lineage. The picture of your hairy master is actualy from one of those Ripley’s Believe it or Not type publications.

2.He claimed he donated some kind of old tablet to the Shaolin Temple, when one of those tablets can be bought by anybody.

3.You say lineages have been debated for centuries, but there are some lineages which are rock solid. The CHEN family creators of CHEN style Taiji come to mind. Same goes with YANG family, creators of YANG family Taiji. The Yang style I’ve seen from you guys does not resemble Yang at all.

4.You bash modern wushu yet you practice our forms. You say it’s no good for fighting yet one of your senior masters has filmed a video of applications to Taiji 24(a modern wushu form). Also I read an article from your organization in which a group from your school was impressed with a display of “traditional” kung fu(they said it was Ditang) when after reading the description it was extremely clear the form was a very popualr modern form. Yes it was Ditang, but the routine was still modern wushu in it’s entirty. Maybe now you can see why I may have sounded a little harsh to you. The statement you made was extremely hypocritical.

There’s more but I have to cut this short. I’m losing my conection

33

shaolin dynasty and brad

well first of all i never started anything here.
when asked what i study and my reply is met with the arguments and insult i always defend the school. if no-one else will then i will. as for you brad,i have studies parying mantis and other animal styles and where as i like the forms and the spirit of the animal forms,i am not as likely to get into a animal pose to show off or to try and psyche the opponent. as for my “bashing” of wushu,all i said was that it did not look to me that it had any reality base to fighting,how many peple do you know of that ACTUALLY FIGHT LIKE THAT ON THE STREET? dont get me wrong i love the animal styles,but i am not so gung ho on them as others are. and as for the article,i cannot speak for that person so i wont. as for the picture of GM su (the hairy guy) as you call him,if your claim is true them send me the link where i can find this picture and find out who that person is. i have searched all over and cannot find it anywhere.
that is the only question that i have about the history and the lineage.
look everyone is soo engrossed in putting us down STOP IT ALREADY!!! WE ARE ARTISTS TOO. despite what you might think. WE RESPECT THE SHAOLIN WAYS AS we do others as well..dont you people SEE that? how many SD people come on this forum and trash you guys huh? HOW MANY? NONE (that i can recall or have seen. and i dont trash or bash anything,i may have my opinions but my respect for the martial arts ,wushu whatever ,is solid. AND LIKE I KEEP SAYING,PROOOOOOVE TO ME THAT GM SIN IS LYING ABOUT EVERYTHING…I WANT DOCUMENTATION I WANT FAAAACTS,SEND EM TO ME…I WILL BE THE FIRST TO CROSS OVER AND RENOUNCE MY BELTS IN SD IF ANY OF YOU CAN PROVIDE ME WITH THE WRITTEN PROOF OF GM SIN’S FALSEHOOD.
THE TRUTH IS THAT none of you cant PROVE A DAMN THING OTHER THAN YOUR OWN CONJECTURE AND BS.
THERES MY CHALLENGE, ARE YOU GUYS UP TO IT?
or will it be the same thing over and over again. “the proof is in what he says and claims”
thats not FACT,that is OPINION,go to the dcitionary and look the two words up…MAN i Am tired of this guys…either PUT UP or SHUT THE F@#K UP!!!
many respects ,willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.

34

one subject at a time

I repeat,

You bash modern wushu yet you practice our forms. You say it’s no good for fighting yet one of your senior masters has filmed a video of applications to Taiji 24(a modern wushu form). Why? THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANIMAL FORMS!

35

As for everything else I’m in the process of locating the hairy shaolin-do master. And I’m going to try and email the Chen and Yang famlies tommorrow.

36

Brad’s 4 points

  1. I love the hariy master story. It’s the best part of Shaolin-Do. True or not, it’s a wonderful metaphor, and just like any master folktales, conveys something that resonates.

  2. Anyone can place a stone at Shaolin Temple or any temple for that matter provided they come up with the contribution. Those stones represent financial support, something all PRC post-CR temples need for restoration, although such markers can be found at any significant holy site. I salute Sinte for his early donations to the Shaolin temples.

  3. Yes, many lineages are well documented, but that doesn’t mean that if one is not well documented it is false. Their are plenty of martial orphans, but they are no less then the rest of us.

  4. Wushu bashers can never do wushu. Any real practitioner can see how difficult wushu is, especially those new compulsories. And the line between what is contemporary wushu and what isn’t is getting blurry (except the compulsories of course.) Sometimes I think wushu bashers are just old stubborn practitioners who can’t run, jump or move very quickly, but that’s probably overly vindictive.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com

37

My main problem with Shaolin Do is Sin The’s claims. He claimed to be the Grandmaster of Shaolin. Shaolin Do also butchered perfectly good chinese styles. On the website it says their mission is to preserve the Shaolin arts. I really don’t see how removing important aspects of the Art that makes it CMA and replacing it with Karate princibles preserves anything.

38

Well this was fun…

Well, I’m looking forward to Brads input. I am way too lazy to continue this.

I pretty much agree with Gene. Gene, you are one hell of a guy. You make your point without forcing it.

Willow, maybe someday we can get together and criticize each other. YOu can tell me I’m not flexible enough (old injury) and I can tell you you are using Karate bio mechanics. You can tell me what I do isn’t Shaolin and I can tell you that your forms don’t really work together on principle. Or something. Who knows. Even better, I can grab some of my boys and challenge you to a paint ball match. Which might be more rewarding.

I would think the universal disaproval of CMA practitioners would be a hint, but I think Brads stuff will add some fuel to this fire. I guess if Sin The didn’t come across like a BS artist and called his art something different, no one would care. But hey, I’m thinking of renaming my practice ‘What?’. That way I’m not bothered with labels.

“What do you practice?”

“What”

“WHAT do you practice?”

“Exactly.”

Willow, you guys might want to try this too.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

39

I haven’t had any personal problems with anyone on this board until TWS. Actually most all Shaolin Do practitioners I’ve met on these boards have been nicer than most MA I’ve met from other styles, I’ll give you that. I get kind of fired up about on the subject of fraud, because I’ve gone through this kind of stuff first hand. And the styles looked a LOT like the Shaolin Do material. I will agree not to call Shaolin Do outright fraud until I have solid proof (proving anything beyond reasonable doubt is HARD! Just look at the OJ trial :wink: ). I still feel very strongly that there is something fishy going on with that organization, and will continue to look into it. If you want to help answear some of the questions people have about Shaolin Do we could try to work together if you want. I’d be willing to forget your modern wushu coments, and I promise to remain civil :slight_smile:

40

Yeah, Gene’s a pretty cool guy :cool:

I’d like to aproach this from the standpoint of historical research, not a criminal investigation, which means looking into all claims from both sides of the argument. And this would mean working with Shaolin Do.