Why not MORE Xingyi???

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
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Just a curious thought, and I always forget to ask. Xingyi is 1000 years old, is battle proven, and proven to work many times in real combat. It has also been taught to military on a standard basis in recent history in China. With that said…

Why would an art with a history or practice and effectiveness such as Xingyi, not be more popular or rather, widely taught? I guess I am thinking only US, but I have not seen that it is really very popular. Also, if you want to find a Xingyi teacher, sometimes people have to drive hundreds of miles! Or even use video taped sessions, and mail them to a teacher to comment.

I would think it was difficult, but look at Tai Chi. It is hard to make it work, but look at all the Tai Chi teachers?

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Yeah, but most Taiji teachers are crap anyway.

3

Well, yes, that is very true. :smiley:

But nobody laughs at Xingyi, yet it seems quite hard to find these days.

4

Be honest…

The VERY first chinese style i ever studied was Yee Chuan Xing Yi…
I had always done Japanese or Korean styles in the past and to be fully honest… i hated it:(
It looked gumpy, the postures felt cramped, it seemed over simplisitic. It simply didnt colide with my idea of what kung fu should be.
The instructor was also an occur, he was a big well built white guy who ran the class like a fitness program. Push ups sit ups streches running and in large does.
He also did pleanty of demonstrations. He could fold any punching bag basicaly in half with a strait punch. The one that REALLY blew my mind at the time and still does for a xing yi guy.
He would lie down on the floor and invite the WHOLE class to come and grab a hold of him and try to pin him to the ground. The when everyone was in hold he would twist and wriggle and litteraly spasm his way out.

I never enjoyed the classes and never got far in the art never understanding why we where doing so much excercise so much standing meditian and such darn simple movements.

6 years later i know a LOT better. Ive seldom seen other sifus with the same power or ablity to demonstrate it and i know a lot better about how effective those ‘simple’ movements are and how much go’s into them.

I think the honest thruth is to a total laymen Xing Yi looks rediculous when compared with western boxing. However to anyone with any knowledge of structure or body dynamics its one of the best things since sliced bread.

One day i would like to find that same ‘occur’ and politely request that he teach me on from where i left off… The DEAD begining :smiley:

5

Why no more hsing i??

Cuz no one likes standing meditation…

My predicition however is that in the next few years as Internal Kung Fu gains popularity, a lot of Karate and TKD guys are gonna jump on the bandwagon b/c of Hsing I’s External look… They are going to see postures, try to mimic them, and gain nothing of the Internal movements.

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Both Bagua and Xing-i got a big popualarity boost after that last Jet Li flick. They are both effective styles, but have managed to stay out of the public’s eye. I think the reasons for this are that internal styles require alot more work than external styles. More meditation, and a deeper insight into postures. I have noticed that almost all internal students are former external students. They just got to the point that they could see the intrinsic power that was previously overlooked. With the exception of the recreational Tai chi guys. Many of them are just looking for a low/no impact workout, and have no interest in combat applications. I have noticed that internals are growing in popularity as of late though. So maybe this won’t be an issue for too much longer. We can then complain about how many fakes there are.

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Why isn’t Hsing-I popular?

When I started to study the internals I wondered the same question. I researched and realize that Hsing-I is an kept secret. I realize because of the work an patience with it no one waits to put the effort in. We are all victims of a fast society and who wants to stand for a half hour in a Pi Chaun stance?

I also think the lack of knowledge of the style is due to a lot of myths that we as martial artists believe in when we read stories on internal arts. We sometimes forget that what was done in the past with the art was a different time with different type of fighters. For Hsing-I to get popular it will need to show its effectiveness in the real life combat. If you don’t have a Hsing-I fighter fighting in tournaments and big fighting events no one will pay attention to its skill. That is why mixed martial arts and Muay Thai is popular because people show its effectiveness in real life combat.

I think that Hsing-I as well as Pa Kua are considered styles for New Age mystics and hippes…When other martial artist see this they are dont take the art seriously.

CDLee brought up a good statement

Just a curious thought, and I always forget to ask. Xingyi is 1000 years old, is battle proven, and proven to work many times in real combat. It has also been taught to military on a standard basis in recent history in China. With that said…

We have to keep in mind as well that the people that used this art were fighting the same type of people. The Chinese were fighting the Chinese. Look at their weight class! Can Hsing-I practitioners use this art against modern fighters that faster, smarter, and more technically advanced in their training? That is why I understand why that you should cross train in styles to that you can be deverse in your methods. When I read Pa Kua practitioners say you shouldn’t be taken to ground is a fantasy! Because if you dont’ train to fight on the ground what do you do if you do fall there?

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Re: Why not MORE Xingyi???

Originally posted by CD Lee
[B]
[…snip…]

I would think it was difficult, but look at Tai Chi. It is hard to make it work, but look at all the Tai Chi teachers? [/B]

Yeah, but those slow tai chi sets allow you to have time to fantasize about being powerful, even though you are not. But all the hsing i punching and stepping drills are done quickly, so all you have time to do is think how uncoordinated you actually are.

I think that the effort it takes to learn hsing i quickly makes you seriously consider whether you want to learn how to fight (hard work) or keep healthy (less work). It’s easier to do so-called tai chi just for health.

-crumble

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Hey Jon:

Was your Hsing-I teacher Rob Whitewood?

I visited his school once years ago, but I wasn’t impressed. Mind you, I didn’t really “get” the internals at the time, so it’s possible that I didn’t recognise the good bits.

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open your eyes and just look around

razakdigital, That was a very good post reply, I see you are understanding martial arts more on the real side. Yo, bring them two Hsing Yi books to the workshop.

crumble I like your post , your statements are conforming to the facts and truth of most todays internal practitioners.

As for my opinion on Hsing Yi Boxing. I feel that it is a very hard art to learn, it may look easy, because of the few combat sets a student may learn, But the real key to learn Hsing Yi is within the San Ti or trinity posture, many of Hsing Yi fighting applications depend on this one posture.

And many today that practice Hsing Yi most of the time just practice the five elements with no kind of standing practice what so ever. So most of the time you may see people that look very good demonstrating Hsing Yi boxing forms, but as soon as you get a opportunity to cross hands with them, you soon find out, that most of these guys have no real fighting skill. All you will see today is internal practitioners doing forms, forms, forms, No real hands on $hit.

All you have to do is look around, and you only find a few if you have luck, good Hsing Yi practitioners that are getting Hsing Yi real, But must of the time what you will find is Hsing Yi teachers that claim to study the true art of FORM -MIND-BOXING

When in fact their only doing-TALK AND FORM, FORM, FORM,FORM,BOXING. all you have to do is look around and you see just what I’m talking about.

Today what you will see, is most internal pratitioners is all theory talk and forms, but when its time to show people, these fake intenal martial art analysis warriors, always come with some kind of mendacious story to excuse themself from not crossing hands with a person.

So today what you will see is just fake internal martial art mystic practitioners, that think they become some kind of warlord with chi powers and superhuman push hands skills, all you have to do is look around and you see just what I’m talking about.

With people like that around teaching internal martial arts, this is why you never see real internal martial arts or real internal training methods, unless you have luck on your side. there are many world renowned fakes out here teaching for money. Most of the true genuine internal martial art teachers don’t care about making big money and having a big world renowned name.

Most genuine Hsing Yi teachers that I know, just teach a few students and like it that way, most people find these Hsing Yi teachers by word of mouth.

The bottom line is, today all you see people do is demonstrating Hsing Yi boxing forms and talk about theory and applications like always. All of them utilizing the same combat form applications and theory reference, no Hsing Yi knowledge of their own, or do they experiment with their own ideas, But hey this is how it is in all the so called internal martial arts.

Fools that think their teaching real internal martial artists, and the dump ones that are paying these fools money to learn from them.

Today internal martial arts is sad, sad, sad. To many form palyers and no real skilled fighters in these internal methods, so thats way you never see real Hsing Yi boxing in action unless you have luck on your side.

Like I said today Hsing Yi boxing and other Internal styles is all about Good looking forms and talking you to death about theory.

All you have to do is just open up your eyes and look around… :rolleyes:

Peace

11

“If you don’t have a Hsing-I fighter fighting in tournaments and big fighting events no one will pay attention to its skill.”

Actually, I think Mike Patterson’s guys have done quite well.

“Can Hsing-I practitioners use this art against modern fighters that faster, smarter, and more technically advanced in their training?”

I’m not sure their any smarter or faster(with equal power) and most everybody who ring fights utilizes up to date training, kung fu or not. As far as more technically advanced, I’m not sure how this statement is qualified. Are you saying modern conditioning methods, or are you talking about the technical merits of the system itself?

As far as weight class, hsing yi attacks should be powerful enough to damage an opponent sufficiently to win a fight(as in altercation, not ring fight). It just takes a lot of skill. And an opponent who is not better than you.

“All you will see today is internal practitioners doing forms, forms, forms, No real hands on $hit.”

Maybe its just like this where I live, but of three teachers here who teach hsing yi as their core art, two will cross hands and don’t conform to the above statement, and the third I haven’t met yet.

Out here, hsing yi is not rife with fakes, while there’s many tai chi fakes, capioera fakes, etc. Hsing yi students are usually, in my experience, fighters who gravitate to hsing yi because of its reputation as a fighting style and not a pretty forms style(not that the forms aren’t cool, they just take an educated eye to understand). Perhaps its different where you live.

Mind you, this is coming from a person who is not a hsing yi stylist, though the art I study is descended from hsing yi. Out here, I can think of no other group of stylists that I think hold closer to the real principles of their art and kung fu than the hsing yi guys I’ve met, and, of course, the school I go to, but of course, I’m a little biased there.

“Most genuine Hsing Yi teachers that I know, just teach a few students and like it that way, most people find these Hsing Yi teachers by word of mouth.”

IMO, this applies to all the really good teachers I’ve known or studied with.

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Actually, I think Mike Patterson’s guys have done quite well.

I’m aware of Mike Patterson students. Tim Cartnell students fight as well. Again the amount of Hsing-I fighters that are out there are not big enough in numbers for the world to be aware of them.

I’m not sure their any smarter or faster(with equal power) and most everybody who ring fights utilizes up to date training, kung fu or not. As far as more technically advanced, I’m not sure how this statement is qualified. Are you saying modern conditioning methods, or are you talking about the technical merits of the system itself?

I’m talking about modern conditioning methods. This includes diet, excercise, and any other training methods that is available that was not a available during the 1000 year existence of Hsing-I.

It’s refreshing to hear from you that you know some fighters that take the art seriously.

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Like I said, what people see today is non skilled internal Practitioners out here teaching Bull$hit. It don’t matter where a person is from, there are only a few people that can and know how to utilize Hsing Yi or any internal methods.

FORMS, FORMS , FORMS , TALK, TALK. TALK, NO REAL MARTIAL SKILLS FROM ANY OF THESE SO CALLED INTERNAL METHODS.

Go to any Hsing Yi or most internal styles web sites or even schools, all a person will see is forms, forms, and these so called internal teachers just talk about the skills of dead past masters, their lineage, and theory and applications, that you know by looking at most of these guys talking Bull$hit, that they are so far out of shape that they can utilize what they claim they can do.

I have to say that Mike Patterson’s web site the only Hsing Yi web site that I do like. He’s the only one that seems to be keeping it real when it comes to the combat side of Hsing Yi and even Ba Gua Zhang. Hes not only demonstrating just forms on his web site , but he is also doing a few fighting applications.

Then theres Tim Cartmell, who web site is also one of my favorite internal martial art web sites, Tim also have movies of him doing Hsing Yi fighting applications, even himself and his students sparring. Thats what a part of real martial arts is all-HANDS ON, NOT JUST RUNNING YOUR MOUTH AND TALKING, AND FORM, FORMS.

Even erle Montaigue web site is good, because he not just talking about past masters and unrealistic Bull$hit. These men I never met, But I respect because, they are not out here just talking Bull$hit, like many so called internal practitioners that is full of $hit.

KC Elbows I respect your viewpoint, but I stand by my own opinion, there are more fakes within internal martial arts, then there are genuine, and there are just as many in Hsing Yi boxing.

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My opinion on this one

Hey guys. Let me throw my two cents in.
There are several reasons why XY is not popular anymore.
One one the aspects that should be analysed is the kind of thinking that goes through the mind of many masters, now and back in the old days. Masters are and were very selective when it comes to pass their knowledge to students. The students being chinese, the teacher will first of all expect hard work from them; nothing less than hard work. Meanwhile the teacher will keep on eye on the students character, nature and private life too. If the student is less that the teacher expects him to be, he won’t get the complete system. If the student is not chinese, wow…that’s worse. Even now, many teachers don’t teach non chinese students. In a way, I totally understand this attitude; like, you have a foreigner coming from say, US, to stay a year or two. Is the teacher really going to get to the deep part of XY, knowing that after 2 years the student will be gone and, most important, without having any idea when or if will the guy be back? Sure no. And there are some others XY masters that will tell you that they teach foreigners, but in reality, you are not getting the real thing.
Plus, the “keep everything secret” philospohy doesn’t help too much. Example: I learn different techniques from my XY teacher, and he tells me not to train with anyone outside the family, not to tell anyone how to use. Considering that you have a lot of people that are not into the fighting side of it, as I am, you have to look for partners outside, but then, you remember there are several things you can’t train with the other guy, and can’t even tell him about. It would definetely be better for any student to train with as many different people as he can, so as to impoove his “game”.
And this bring us to another important point: people that look for XY, are not into the fighting anymore. They want to be in shape, do the forms, 5 fists, but they don’t want to fight…generaytion after generation it gets worse.
Another thing is that XY doesn’t work like “mass production”; it’s slow, it takes time and patience. That means that if you want to be able to use XY in a fight, you gotta work hard for a long time. I respect people that think that in a couple of months you can be already using XY,; maybe they have a different experience from me, but I think that it takes a longer time. Ok, anyone can use bengquan within a few months of practice, that’s for sure. But are you going to be using relaxed power? Are you going to be issuing energy instead of only using physical power? Are you going to have all the coordenations there in a couple of months? I don’t think so. I mean, you can hit with a bengquan, but are you going to have all the necessary “infra-structure” necessary to back it up? In today’s society people are out of patience; people want quick results; in my oppinion XY is not going to give them these.
Also, chinese don’t have a systematic way of teaching, like the japonese do. Very often, you don’t know what you are learning or what are you supposed to be learning next.
It’s important to know too that chinese martial arts need to be taken more seriously. Many masters believe that you do the 5 fists, 12 forms, a couple of 2 men forms and you are ready to fight…hey…no! You can’t throw someone in a fight with this kind of trainning only. What I am saying is also that less and less teachers really know what they are talking about.
Anyway, just my 2, or 3 cents.

See you.
T.

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Great posts guys

Thanks for this discussion. I think there is a lot of truth in what everbody has said regarding the hard work. I mean, I have been working stances and stepping almost exlusively for 7 months, and you do need to have some real patience. The thing is, I may complain that we are not ‘punching’ and ‘kicking’, but then, a lot still cannot do the simple things they have asked us to work on correctly yet. It is tough work. I used to do externals, but you know, if I came to Xingyi first, I would have thought they were nuts! There is no way I would have stayed with it.

Tadzio - Great to hear from you! I did very much enjoy your article posted on David Devere’s web site a while back. Very nice article. Tad, I respect your approach to XY, and was wondering what you think it takes to get from the forms and sets, to actual effective fighting. There are always discussions on this, but I know that your school in Brazil actually do fight, and have a very interesting approach to teaching XY. Frankly, I get tired of all the BS you hear from experts who don’t actually fight. I know you took some flak for that article from some of Cartmell’s boys, who said you must have never had a fight. You just have to laugh at all these guys who have no idea what they are even saying. Also Tad, when you say a guy that has not done much fighting cannot be expected to fight usin XY, do you mean sport fighting or bar fighting or did you have any idea in mind. You know a quick bar fight does not always take a lot of skill depending on the situation and the guy.

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Blackdoaist,

I wasn’t actually meaning to disagree with you. Most of everything is cr@p. I merely have a small sample of hsing yi guys to judge from in KC, and they are actually quite a bit better than most kung fu teachers out here. I can believe there’s a lot of bad hsing yi out there, but here, most of the bad practitioners gravitate towards arts they falsely percieve to have more prestige.

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Tadzio) there are some others XY masters that will tell you that they teach foreigners, but in reality, you are not getting the real thing.

BT)You make a valid point, but my opinion is, a person should be able to tell if the style their learning authentic. If a person can’t distinguish if the internal method their learning is genuine or fake, then I have to say they must be just dump, or the person never had any living encountering experience with a real Martial art teachers that teach a genuine fighting system.

Also there are many Chinese practitioners that are fakes, So just because a person go to China to learn don’t mean a thing, I have been to China a few Times with my Sifu, and seen good and bad. You have some Chinese that know they $hit and thats not many when it comes to utilizing their method in a actual sparring situation.

Then there is the Chinese teachers that will teach foreigners that come to China to learn, endless forms without any correct body mechanics or martial function. This way of teaching is geared for dump foreigners and americans, that don’t have any actual hardcore martial art training.

My Yin style teacher Chen Xiao Ping would say: The one that hard practice will know, the ones that don’t practice hard will never know.

So the bottom line is, to know if you are getting the real thing, you first have to be real with yourself, and establish realistic traing goals in your quest.

KC Elbows) I don’t dispute all what you said, I agree with what most you said, I just feel there are only a few people that can utilize Hsing Yi or any internal style in any real combat situation. My viewpoint is I love the internal martial arts, But I hate the fakes, Like I said today mostly all you will see is people talking esoteric fighting methods and practicing endless forms, Dance and talking Bull$hit theory with no real martial training, is what most of today internal martial art is all about.

There are many fakes, but few real practitoners, that gos for chinese and nonchinese teachers.

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As for fighting

Cd, thanks for the compliments. As for what people from Cartmel’s school were saying about me, well, different people have different point of views, and I actually don’t care what they say, to be honest with you I am busy trainning. I will just say that I fought (friendly matches) against BJJ figters, Thai boxing, Full contact, Kickboxing and I did ok, very ok. I am sure a lot of guys ut there are able to use XY for real, so I am just one more. A normal guy.

Also CD, you are right about my school back in Brazil www.xingyitchuen.com.br
My teacher has this very straight and nononsense aproach to XY, and can definetely use XY in a fight. He’s that good; but, again, there are many good guys all over.

When I said that I believe that you need time to get to the point where you will be able to fight using XY, I meant exac. that; that it takes time. I think that tuishou and the 2 men forms are the entry gate to free sparring in XY. The forms are fixed patterns between 2 people, but after a while you are expected to do the forms using dfferent mutations from the fixed movements, and that’s where the fun begins. But, above all, if you want to be good in fighting, you gotta fight. Once, many years ago, back in Brazil, there was an interview by one of Yip man’s son (forgot wich one), and the guy was asking him how lomg should you train stick habds; Mr Yip answered: " How good do you want to be at sticky hands?" ---- Never forgot this answer.

BT, I agree with you that a person should be able to distinguish good KF from fake KF, but I totally disagree that they are dumb if they can’t; let me explain. Lets consider XY, for example. The first condition to begin to learn a XY style is that you have to totally trust your teacher. Why? Only because you do things that seem totally stupid. You teacer tells you that to begin, you need to do 30 minutes of santishi everyday, that you have to work on 5 strabge forms of punching. You fell unconfortable doing santishi, don’t fell any qi and feel even more unconfortable doing the fists, so you have to trust your teacher 100 percent. He tells you to do this, and because you trust him, you will do. If he’s teaching you right and you are training right, in a couple of months you will have the results and will be sure that you are training with a real guy, if not, something is wrong. But until you get to this point, unless you have previous training experience, it’s just too difficult to say if he’s real or not.

As for coming to China and not geting the real thing, yes, of course it could happen. You have good and bad teacers anywhere. But beeing close to the source my friend, is always good. :o)

Finally, I couldn’t agree more when you say that you have to be real with yourself.
Good luck with your training.
T.

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First, Let’s get this straight.

If your learning The internal, Chances are that you began in another MA. As for if they are real or not. and if your getting the real thing. All teachers look for talent. If you don’t have the talent
you are tought the commercial. An d will never graduate to learning the higher aspects. As for the trust aspect. In china this may be true. But as far as anybody else is concerned. they look for the talent, not many people have the true body of a martial artist nor can they move correctly. This is inborn.n Most teachers don’t want to waste thier time. If you can’t do the basics that they show you how can you expect more.

From and experianced percpective my brother is right.
you should be able to tell if your teacher is good or not. If your that blind then you need to be taken. because thats an idiot.
People take the MA’s to learn self-defence. If the teacher can’t kick some a$$ What’s the point.
He’d have no students
But then again today it’s all about the money and forms.

maoshan

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Maoshan - Yes, some people simply will not have the physical abilities or balance to do this stuff well. I don’t see how any of the five fists could possibly work without a well coordinated step, and a solid ridgepole. However, with those two things, and intention, the fists can be devestating. I cannot imagine the teacher can take a student very far at all, if any, if they simply work, but cannot get the basics down. McKarate schools can teach right over those shortcoming because they don’t really require that level of skill, although their good students certainly will have the natural skills to be good at internals. I think your point on talent is true.

Tadzio - very cool website and great pictures. I have always been curious, seeing how there are so many bad practitioners in any art form including lower level boxers, how good a lot of the guys in Brazil are at BJJ compared to what we have seen on TV with their very best such as the Gracies. The reason I ask is for reality. If you were to meet a western boxer in a match, you would probably not find someone remotely close in skills or fighting to a worldclass top 10 fighter, such as Vargas, Trinidad, Ayala, Lewis, Barrera, Tapia, etc, etc. Those guys are incredibly skilled at boxing way beyond normal boxers. From what you have seen in BJJ locally, how much of a gap have you seen in skill and fighting ability with the Gracies or others like them and the regular guys learning for self defence?