Good question CDLee
From what you have seen in BJJ locally, how much of a gap have you seen in skill and fighting ability with the Gracies or others like them and the regular guys learning for self defence?
Good question CDLEE I’m curious to hear the answer to that question.
Why not more Xingyi?
Interesting…
I’ll try to make my comments brief:
Iv’e studied Xingyiquan since 1982 (ya I’m getting old!) and I haven’t seen to many people who really knew the art. My Sifu Kong shu Jim (passed away in 1992) taught very different from most of the internal arts I’ve had the pleasure of seeing. His teaching methods were very demanding physically.
I’ve seen a lot of people who have supplemented their xingyi knowledge with other techniques from a different style. (usually something like Taijiquan)
Most people get exposed to Xingyi through schools that *******izied it (only teaching the five element in it’s most basic form) then go on to teach a little Taiji and a little Bagua.
It is vary rare to see xingyiquan taught as a whole in the USA
As far as the interenet goes I only know of only a couple of fully immeresed/trained Xingyi men out there.
Little comments or brief statement if you know the art clues you into someone’s knowledge.
I had a brief conversation with Kenneth Fish on Pan Gen over on empty flower. com He knew things that you would only know if you studied xingyi for a long time.
For example, Xingyi is not linear…never has been…through Pan Gen, the Yin side of the art (the circular side ) is explored. Up untill that point, one has learned only the Yang side of the art.
I once had a conversation with a guy named Filpe Bideo (sic) I’m not sure if that’s correct spelling) over some application in Ann shen pao or was it xa shi chui? Anyway, he was either on his way or actually there as far as knowledge/experience is concerned.
There are others, but these are some of the more internet active xingyimen that I have spoken with.
As for the Blacktoaist’s comments of pretenders…they are so true…
Rememeber!!!
Xingyiquan lives by one code! When it comes to training, “you must fight it out” when looking at a techniques effectiveness. thier are “NO!!!” dead techniques in Xingyi. That is why they are so simple (but complex) to perform.
When in doubt!..fight it out! …anything else isn’t Xingyi training.
The true art not withstanding the various styles within xingyi, with popularity, should start to introduce itself to the public, just as Bagua is doing now.
Les paul
My take…
Hi folks…
My impressions of Hsing-I as a whole art is precisely the same as my take on any/all of the Internal Martial Arts. It’s the fact that knowledge has been lost over the recent past due to the “secrets” of past masters, and the “misinformation” that’s been propagated. What’s happened is that civilization has been changed over the last century to the point where fighting is superfluous in the martial arts. The original intentions have been/are lost in todays commercially oriented arts. What counts now is money/commercial success/fame. It’s a “chocolate” society worldwide. Immediate gratification.
Previously it was all about survival. Period. What we seem to be left with is uncounted hundreds of "sifu's", "masters", and "grandmasters" who have nothing, *but* forms. The "martial" side of the arts is disregarded wholesale, and even if "fighting" is recognized, the details of the training(s) are/have been forgotten. This generation of Internal Martial Artists is *so* far below/behind the previous generations as to be laughable.
That's not to say that there aren't good teachers available, but that they are *very* few, and far between, and even if they're available to the public they may only have a piece of the puzzle. Even at my, admittedly, low level I can "see" if a supposed "master" has any type of "internal" ability. I've even managed to "touch hands" with several very well known, and found them seriously wanting. Lacking even what I consider the most basic of "internal" mechanics. These are the men we look to for the answers, and they don't even know the questions. Sad state of affairs.
We are in a "visual" age where "what we see must be true" rather than what should be felt. We manage to "fool" ourselves into believing what's "real", rather than just work hard, and realize that any benefits are just the byproduct of *correct* training. Recently I made a visit to a few collegues in the south, and had a chance to see a, relatively, well known teacher from their area. I didn't even have to see him do anything other than walk from his car to the front door of his school to recognize the fact that the man had nothing. He may have been a fine athlete, but was definately *not* an internalist. Even though *that* was what he promoted himself as. Just because a form is "correct" doesn't make the practitioner *correct*.
This is what I see all over, and it lessens what the internal martail arts *should* be. I see video clips of hsing-i, taiji, and bagua from all over the world, and I've yet to see anyone worth my time, other than the man who has trained me from the start in the internal arts. That's why I choose to train privately, and work exclusively on the core of my art. *That* training is what counts. *Not* fifty different forms, and countless hours of "practice" of what "looks" good, but has no real value. Down the road those things *may* have value to me, but for right now, and the foreseeable future, core training, not practice, is what it's all about.
That's what's missing from all of the internal arts for the most part. The diligence, patience, and willingness to put in hours of work for the long term. *Training* instead of "practice". What's seen is "empty hands" instead of full ones from the ima community. As far as teachers/schools who are/have competed recently in tournaments? Let's just say I'm not overly impressed with any of the students, or the instructors, "abilities" as a whole.
My Take
It’s out there. I can name just as many good internalists in Chicago as I can BJJ or boxing. I don’t think it’s valid to expect the art to be around every street corner. No other fighting art is.
Also, the internet is not the place to be looking. There’s not a lot of high level people running around posting everywhere.
Also, many people feel that if someone is not training exactly as they do, the other group is a sham and a fraud.
Lastly, for some reason, in IMA, there can be only one for some reason. If you don’t believe me look at all the posts of people claiming that only they have the truth and every one else is a fraud.
Believe what you want, but it’s out there. All you have to do is look around and use yopur common sense.
It’s just hard to find a bonafide Xing Yi teacher.
I’m no Xing-i man… YET
I don’t know if this will assist the argument, or be just another voice screaming into the wind. I am presently a beginning Bagua Zhang student. Aside from a breif foray into Tai chi, this is my first internal training. I looked for a long time to find a teacher that I beleived to be competent. Someone who would not be just babbling esosterics, because internals are rare enough to be passed off as mysticism. My teacher has not talked to me about the theories, or principles of Xing-i. To be honest, I had heard of it in passing. Seeing it advertised on miscelaneous school windows. I saw demonstrations of it more recently. I could’nt have cared less. It meant absolutely nothing to me. I was interested in Bagua, nothing else. One day during class my teacher was practicing on his own. THAT was XING-I. I have to learn THAT. Right now I am devoted to my Bagua. i won’t dilute my training and half-@$$ learn both at once. Later when I have more of a grasp on my present training, I will take on more. I just know that actions spoke much louder than words in this case. I agree with Water Dragon, the real thing is out there. I admit I am know next to nothing of Xing-i, but I know what I saw was different than what was being passed off as internal elsewhere. What I saw was rooted, powerful, and explosive. Forgive me for talking out of my own admittd ignorance. I just thought that this particular observation had a place here.
W.D.
>>It’s out there. I can name just as many good internalists in Chicago as I can BJJ or boxing. I don’t think it’s valid to expect the art to be around every street corner. No other fighting art is. <<
I know for a fact that you're sadly mistaken. From this statement alone I know what "level" you're at.
>>Also, the internet is not the place to be looking. There’s not a lot of high level people running around posting everywhere.<<
Whoever said that they were? Most of us are poor, and perhaps a few are "o.k." Do you consider yourself "high level"? I don't consider myself anything special, but I *know* that I'm better than you as far as the internals go. If for no other reason than experience, and length of time in training. I certainly don't post on one hundred boards, and expound at length over everything/anything. I spend a vast majority of my free time training, and *not* on the computer in the attempt to better myself. I suggest, highly. that you do the same.
>>Also, many people feel that if someone is not training exactly as they do, the other group is a sham and a fraud.<<
I'm not even looking at training methods. I'm looking at so-called "finished products".
>>Lastly, for some reason, in IMA, there can be only one for some reason. If you don’t believe me look at all the posts of people claiming that only they have the truth and every one else is a fraud.<<
Let's just say that anything I've ever claimed to do, I *can*do. No one has *ever* proven me wrong where the ima's are concerned. I get my information from the best. Not only in instruction, but in experience. I have "tested" the theories, and know what my own short comings are. I don't delude myself. I can afford to be an opinionated ass. I've put in my time training, which I continue. I've the "pedigree", which is beyond reproach. I recognized early on in my training with my sifu what the "truth" was. Can you say the same? Have *you* earned that right?
>>Believe what you want, but it’s out there. All you have to do is look around and use your common sense.<<
After having been on this Earth approximately twice the amount of time that you have, and having had considerably more experience in most everything that you've encountered. I believe you need to address me with a bit more respect. Until then, everything you have to say is moot. Regardless of the fact that your teacher, and I are on friendly terms. That still does not give you the right to even expound upon my opinions in this manner. Perhaps Joe will read this, and e-mail me privately conveying *his* opinion. Until then, you must drink tea, Larry.
Drake, I can name two internal teachers in Chicago. One being Mr. Choi and one who’s name I can give you privately if you’d like. I can also name two BJJ schools and 1 good boxing gym, although there must be 2 or 3 more in the city. They can be found if you look. That was my first point, even if worded rather poorly.
I know for a fact that you’re sadly mistaken. From this statement alone I know what “level” you’re at.
I know what level I’m at as well. I never claim to be advanced in anything around here. I state my opinions and experiences as honestly as I can. For the record, I feel I’m somewhere in that hazy area that might be considered intermediate but still could be a beginner as well. I find no shame in that.
>>Also, the internet is not the place to be looking. There’s not a lot of high level people running around posting everywhere.<<
This line simply means that you don’t see Wai Lun Choi, David Lin, Gin Foon Mark, etc. posting advice on the net.
But most importantly: Drake, if I’ve offended you I apologize. If you think that the post was directed at you because it was posted after yours, that’s not true. I have nothing but respect towards your teacher, and have asked after you within my training group. You were spoken well of and in a manner that has gained my respect.
I still wont apologize for the post though as those views are my sincere opinions, which I have the right to post.
I am impressed
Posted by swmngdrgn:
. I don’t delude myself. I can afford to be an opinionated ass. I’ve put in my time training, which I continue. I’ve the “pedigree”, which is beyond reproach. I recognized early on in my training with my sifu what the “truth” was. Can you say the same? Have you earned that right?
Humility. You are lacking the humility and respect for others that I would have expected to find in someone who is so accomplished at internal arts, after 30 years of training, and of someone who has understood the ‘truth’. You may ge great at forms and even fighting, better than all of us, but you lack the refinement of character that it takes to deserve the respect of strangers.
Just on a strictly objective level, how am I supposed to believe you, when you don’t believe others such as waterdragon? A forum is a place for public observers to share in a mutual exchange. If you have a personal axe to grind on Larry, then you should deal with him in email. Otherwise, you have provided nothing in the way of names, schools, references, or anything else other than your personal opinion that you are better than most. Like I said, you may actually be, but you have given this forum of listeners no reason to give you credibility. Frankly, you sound like a kid or a very frustrated middle aged Walter Mitty.
>Humility. You are lacking the humility and respect for others that I would have expected to find in someone who is so accomplished at internal arts, after 30 years of training, and of someone who has understood the ‘truth’. You may great at forms and even fighting, better than all of us, but you lack the refinement of character that it takes to deserve the respect of strangers.<
Humility = An act of submission. (Taken from Funk @ Wagnells New Comprehensive Dictionary)
I believe that you need to reevaluate your over all comprehension of the English language. As far as your other assertions? Well ..... Lets just say I've never wanted for a lack of confidence. I've been know to acquiesce from time to time, but *never* to submit. Respect is earned in both word, and deed. For those who matter in my life I've *earned* that respect. Also, for your personal note book on my life, I've never claimed to train in the T.C.I.M.A.'s for thirty years. I've trained in a *variety* of arts for that length of time. It's only been for the last eight that I've been exclusive in my attention to the T.C.I.M.A.'s.
>Just on a strictly objective level, how am I supposed to believe you, when you don’t believe others such as waterdragon? A forum is a place for public observers to share in a mutual exchange. If you have a personal axe to grind on Larry, then you should deal with him in email. Otherwise, you have provided nothing in the way of names, schools, references, or anything else other than your personal opinion that you are better than most.<
I'd never made any such assertations. If anything, I observed my own "prowess" from a distance. In my own *opinion* I am a bumbling oaf. I cannot fool myself. Other than that? Who are *you* to insert *your* *opinion* of me based on my own *opinion*? For your information the "insult" I imagined was from poor phraseology on Larry's part, and my own rash misinterpretation. Larry, and I have rectified the matter between us. In a private manner. *You*, on the other hand, are better served in training, rather than "running off at the mouth" on the computer searching for answers that are, ultimately, found within said training, and yourself. For your information, a mutual exchange is *not* an indictment of anothers opinion. Appropriately, it's *you* from whom the indictment comes.
>Like I said, you may actually be, but you have given this forum of listeners no reason to give you credibility. Frankly, you sound like a kid or a very frustrated middle aged Walter Mitty.<
I've not asked for your acceptance of my "credibility". As *you've* made *your* opinion of me based on a situation that you weren't invited in to, and as such have made your *opinion* of me based on a misunderstanding, I'll say this much. I make no bones about who I am, and I make myself readily available to those with whom I have created some sort of relationship with. Even across the internet. If you have a "problem" with me, you're more than welcome to come up, and we can ....."discuss" the problem. I'll even cook a fine lunch, or dinner when we're done. I'm more than willing to debate whatever fine points of humility, or the lack thereof that you seem to think I have. However, I beleve you *may* want to reread my original post, and then W.D.'s, and see where I could have made my mistake. From my point of view. As to my being a "frustrated middle aged Walter Mitty"? I *did* enjoy the movie. Very much so.
I don’t, however, live within my own, rather fanciful, imagination. Unfortunately, I must live in the, present, real world. As must we all. “Frustrated”? Perhaps. More so with those who would rather discuss, and theorize than work. I “sound” like a child? My adult child would argue that point. I certainly do not. I do do my best to keep a rather “youthful” perspective. I’m also in better physical condition, as well, due to that “youthful” perspective, and a preponderant desire to protect me, and mine. Especially given our current timeline.
Until you’ve managed to “walk in my shoes”, so to speak, you need to ask yourself the selfsame “questions”, in a matter of speaking, that you’ve posed to me. I think that perhaps you’ll find some rather “incriminating” evidence in your own psche. This is the last I’ll write on this matter that you’ve so handily “insinuated” yourself into. Perhaps, at another time, we can discuss the hubris that you’ve exhibited at the time of this writing. Until then, you must drink tea.
Quoted by swmndrgn:
Humility = An act of submission. (Taken from Funk @ Wagnells New Comprehensive
Dictionary)
I believe that you need to reevaluate your over all comprehension of the English
language.
I’m sorry, I was using the Webster’s New World College Dictionary’s (fourth edition) rendition of the word humble:
‘having or showing a consciousness of one’s defects or shortcomings’. I think you realize your shortcomings well enough, you just need to let that self-knowledge and martial skills blend a bit more.
You complain about my use of one word, offer one dictionary description, and then tell me to re-evaluate my ‘over all’ comprehension of the English language. I just lowered your grade by 10 points. 
Shouldn’t that be ‘overall’? I will give you credit, you use a lot of MBA level English words in your post, but your English usage and word choice are off sometimes. Martial application: Big words are similar to big hard punches. Lots of power, but without proper usage or delivery, it is just a big hard punch.
I am talking about a spirit of humility that should come with self confidence and expertise in your field. Not fear, or giving in as your choice of definition implies. I’ll be frank. I don’t like you disrespecting Larry on this public forum, and using your experience to trash him personally in front of everybody. Speaking of hubris, YOU are the one who took Larry’s post as an affront to your post simply because it was behind yours. That is truly rushing in impetuously. I think you need to be more contrite about the matter. Until then, drink tea. And yes Mr. Almighty, we all have the ‘RIGHT’ to post our opinions about your posts on this forum. I am not accusing you of being an dilettante expounding phatically, just an arrogant bully. Like I said, the tea is on the burner. Drink up.
Larry, and I have rectified the matter between us. In a
private manner.
You don’t need a comma after Larry, and your next statement after the period is a sentence fragment. 10 more points. Better yet, “Larry and I have rectified the matter between us in a private matter.” Who brought up the English subject? I could really go to town on this you know…I will tap out for everybody’s sake. Just an example of bad delivery and technique. However, all else aside, since you trashed him publicly, a pulic resolution might be nice. Unfortunately, you brought your dirty laundry onto the forum already.
… Lets just say I’ve never wanted for a
lack of confidence.
Confidence is one thing. A humble person can be very confident. You seem arrogant. Check out the English usage on those two similar yet different terms. “…full of or due to unwarranted pride and self-importance;overbearing…”
I’ve not asked for your acceptance of my “credibility”. As you’ve made your opinion
of me based on a situation that you weren’t invited in to,
You are posting an ‘expert’ opinion on the condition of authentic Xingyi practice in the US (which is a very large geographic area), stating that there is none to be found, and are doing so on a public forum with hundreds of users. Check out the definition of ‘forum’. As far as being invited, I started this thread publicly, and you have invited yourself in. You are as welcome as everybody else with an opinion. However, a public forum is no place to set up camp and start squatting. In addition, as regards your credibility, you stated a hard opinion and backed it up with your 30 years of experience. If that is not seeking credibility within your target audience, then you need to tell me what you were implying by listing your personal experience as one having an opinion on the state of Xingyi in our country. I made my opinion of you based not on the situation, but rather on your hubris in taking a public post too personally.
If you have a “problem” with me,
you’re more than welcome to come up, and we can …“discuss” the problem.
What? You want to fight? Just state what you mean. I am sure with your expertise comes the need to have to prove yourself to low level practitioners such as me. Self confidence and humility should rid you of that desire. Or do you really want to just ‘discuss’ The first thing a bully does is try to solve things with a fight. I thought good kung fu got us past these things. :rolleyes:
Perhaps, at
another time, we can discuss the hubris that you’ve exhibited at the time of this writing.
Until then, you must drink tea.
Maybe. I am sure you are a great guy, and we just got off on the wrong foot. I would not characterize my post as hubris. I think I am on a public forum, posting on my own thread. Perhaps you think I was impetuous, but to me you were a cacophony, with a caustic opinion and dissonant attitude. I re-read your original posts. As far as hubris, let me say it this way. Everybody was posting opinions on the art of Xingyi and you took Larry’s post very personally, and started a personal attack on him the person, not on his ideas. As far as your first post on this thread, I found it very interesting.
I like your ebullience, but I think some synthesis of your physical and mental skills would benefit all martial artists. Until then, I’ll just drink some beer and pass on the tea, thanks.
BTW. Try out the ‘bold’ function in place of the * usage. I think you’ll like it.
Well, since I’m in the hood today:
Not popular ANYMORE?
Who was talking about Hsing-I 10-15 years ago? Same with Ba Gua?
Now seems like everyone knows not only 1, but several non Taiji internal players. Not just players, but masters. Even on the Kung Fu (external) board, guys are talking Hsing-I this and that.
I don’t think its ever been more popular. I agree with the BS comments, but that is not just internal, that is all martial arts.
Those who want to really learn will, they will go to class, study the info and do what they have to do on their own to test.
Find that one good teacher.
From my experince, I have seen three types of teachers/schools.
Commercial: do forms, maybe some light joking sparring and at the most go to tournaments for a game of tag.
From S. Mantis: A small close nit group of guys who train behind closed doors and fight amongs themselves. Later on, for fun, the teacher takes them to a “tough” spot and instigates a situation to test.
Teachers who are too good to care: They accept all challanges on the spot. Don’t allow their students to fight openly, because no matter what they are not good enough yet, and need more drilling, deeper basics. Will do full power drills but under a controlled envirnment.
This environment is tricky. Students, not forced into fighting situations, can become lax, and fall into the aformentioned theory game. They are learning hi-tech stuff but never test it. BUT, there are those who will come, take what they can, incorporate it into what they have and keep learning, adding little by little and refining, removing little by little.
Hopefully, they have made some contacts by this stage of the game, and can test now and again.
My mind is all over the place as of late. Seeing alot of new stuff, and where I thought I was once a decent fighter, I now think I am weak.
Got into a fight yesterday a matter of fact. Maybe that’s why I’m here to day.
Peace
Evolution
I started Xingyi without even knowing what it was! I really mean that too. Sounded like a bunch of gibberish to me. But I did external stuff before, so I realized what was going on pretty quick.
What really initiated the question, was that once I discovered how awesome this art is, you look around for a teacher, and they are so sparse, you are literally LUCKY to find a Xingyi teacher within 100 miles of any given place. Add to that, you may want a very good teacher, and you see what I mean.
You know, it is not like you can learn the five elements like Karate, and make it work like Karate.
Xing Yi is hard to learn period. Our total class size consists of three students.
My classmates originally started with Bagua (we are still learning). As a way to keep our practice fresh, our teacher asked us if we would like to learn something else. One of my classmates was interested in learning an external style. I suggested that we ask sifu to teach us XingYi.
The Black Taoist has it right when he talks about the importance of standing in San Ti. My teachers grand teacher Sun Lu Tang’s had a Xing Yi student, Qi Gong Bo, who did nothing but stand in San Ti for the first three years of his training. The story goes that he was a little slow, and couldn’t learn the forms. He ended up being Sun Lu Tang’s best student. My teachers teacher Sun Jian Yun says that Sun Lu Tang recommended that his students work their way up to an hour, switching the stance when they became exhausted.
Our teacher checks our “linking” or body alignment, by applying force while we our in one of the postures. Even small changes in position can have a dramatic effect on rooting. XingYi, as with Bagua is subtle and takes diligent effort and training to become proficient. The movements look simple, but they have to be executed perfectly to work.
Do you Xingyi guys only hold Santi on one side or do you switch trying to do equal time on both sides?
both sides dude