Why is there not a single WC fighter, anywhere!!!!!!!!!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1096803]Sure it works well against skilled fighters. I started training WC 56 years ago, and it is the only way I know to fight. I can make it work, even now in my old age it has not abandoned me. Most all other forms of fighting will eventually abandon you due to your old age. WC is forever once learned. I have a high ranking in Jap Jiujitsu, and yet only use it when I do not want to really bust someone up. But if I am mad at you and really want to do you a job, I can do it with WC. I have the skills. If you really want to make WC work for you, you have to have confidence in it and train it like you trust it. Otherwise it is just a game of chi sao for you.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you on one of your points.
And that is WC being able to be used into later years, i know some good guys into there 50’s and 60’s, and styles such as MT are hard on the body (great for finess though)

BUT… when it comes to delivering straight out, competitive fighters you cant argue with the evidence that keeps coming back to boxing/mt/bjj/wrestling as the better styles

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[QUOTE=mvbrown21;1096568]Hey guys,

I won’t lie, I’m getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I’ll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man’s day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street???

On a personal level I’m confident that I can handle my own against the ‘average’ opponent. I’ve used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I’ve learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who’s to say that something like boxing couldn’t teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer’s have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen’s club for WC only. I’ve seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There’s something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not bashing WC, I love it, but I’m also trying to be realistic in it’s effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they’re not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it’s usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, “well, competition has rules” or “WC attacks are too deadly” or “the true WC fighters don’t boast themselves” or “all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches”. Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don’t know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I’m seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn’t very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I’m tired of demo’s, I’m tired of theory, I’m tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see ‘proof’ that WC can hold it’s own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys “structure” and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18

Anyone else here feel the same way?

_[/QUOTE]

MMA is fought in as large spacious octagon or hexagon and even when the fighters clinch there is still room (and floor space) to grapple. There is no need nor opportunity to straight blast your way out of a narrow corridor.

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Don’t you mean why are there no Wing Chun fighters on Tee Vee?

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[QUOTE=GlennR;1096806]I agree with you on one of your points.
And that is WC being able to be used into later years, i know some good guys into there 50’s and 60’s, and styles such as MT are hard on the body (great for finess though)

BUT… when it comes to delivering straight out, competitive fighters you cant argue with the evidence that keeps coming back to boxing/mt/bjj/wrestling as the better styles[/QUOTE]

i know boxers and judo guys still able to hand people their backsides well into their 50’s

the question should probably be if there are so few examples of wing chun working for people in their 20 and 30’s against other skilled fighters, what makes anyone thing that as you get older, slower and weaker it will suddenly work better than those styles

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why is there not a single WC fighter , anywhere

[QUOTE=mvbrown21;1096657]Some of you understood me, some of you didn’t understand, some of you misquoted me, and some of you took it as a threat…

Look, first thing’s first, this has nothing to do with my teacher or lineage. IMHO I think I have some of the purest WC teaching available. The HKM/Augustine Fong line. I’ve been practicing WC for over 10 years now and have obtained a fairly good skill level within the system.

Once again, I’m not bashing WC. I think it’s great and is a very effective self-defense system. I just, to some degree, have come to the realization that it pretty much stops there. I no longer believe it to be the ‘end all, be all’ that so many in the WC community believe it to be. I view it now more as a supplemental system more than a primary system.

At one point in time I thought it was more a ‘combat art’ but I now believe it to be more a ‘concept art’. It’s not that I haven’t tested it out myself because I have. Many times in both a real environment and also a sparring environment. You can fight dirty all day long and win, and WC is very good at having dirty technique. But that about amounts to someone’s in your face, they push you or something of the like, and you attack easily obliterating them. In a lot of ways it’s no different from a sucker punch, and at least to this WC practitioner, that doesn’t amount to quality of skill. Anyone could use that aggressive concept and win with any technique, WC or not.

Now when it comes to an opponent who’s not that stupid and has a fair amount of skill themselves, things drastically change in regards to WC. I know some WC guys here do practice sparring. That’s great. But the technique that everyone here learned, the 3 forms, the dummy, the weapons forms, Chi Sao, etc., essentially the technique itself, are simply not there when facing off against a worthy opponent. It goes right out the window and they become more ‘natural’ fighters. Now they can call it WC and say that that’s their basis for what they’re doing. That’s fine, but that just proves that the WC system itself is just ‘concept’ based then. These guys have evolved their technique outside of the original system and I don’t know about you, but that tells me something.

Now you’ll either understand what I’m trying to express here or you won’t. That’s fine. But just remember that whether you’re a teacher or a student, you are being irresponsible with your safety or your students safety if you are lead to believe that the WC system alone will protect you.

Let me state this once again, I love Wing Chun, I will continue to study it probably my whole life. I’ve just realized that, unlike the type of “fantasy-fu” that is talked about within this forum about the different lineages, the “fantasy-fu” that the WC community ‘as a whole’ promotes will no longer have it’s grip on me. I know what WC can do and I know what WC cannot do. And if I ever want to grow as a martial artist, that’s the first step.[/QUOTE]

Mybrown , excuse me for reading your thread wrong , your wing chun lineage Ho Kam Ming / Austine Fong , I heard that they ’ re good , so keep up your wing chun training . Because now that you mentioned your wing chun lineage and the number of years of experience you have in wing chun , now I can see where your comming from , so sorry to misunderstand your thread . You should be good by now so I ’ ll leave you alone .

As for your qustion why is ’ nt there any WC fights out there or anywhere ? Well your guess is just as good as mine a big ? .

Is Fong Sifu still teaching Hung Gar ? Because I heard that he learned Hung Gar and choy li fut . But anyway , keep training up the training .

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[QUOTE=Frost;1096841]i know boxers and judo guys still able to hand people their backsides well into their 50’s

the question should probably be if there are so few examples of wing chun working for people in their 20 and 30’s against other skilled fighters, what makes anyone thing that as you get older, slower and weaker it will suddenly work better than those styles[/QUOTE]

Yep, dont personally know any judo guys but i know a few 50 plus boxers that can more than look after themselves.

The reason the older guys in WC appear good is that they (generally) only train with their own students… they know their juniors game so its a no brainer that they appear superior.

Especially if chi-sao is the measuring stick.

So when the 20-30 yo’s finally meet up with, say a 20-30 yo MT stylist, they get owned

And i think its criminal that these instructors dont get their studemts to mix it up with other styles…its either arrogance, stupidity or a combination of both.

And if i read one more guy say, i know this guy thats never been filmed blah blah blah… ill puke

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The answer is actual quite simple:
The reason you don’t see many ( virtually none to be honest) WC practioners fighting full contact is because the VAST MAJORITY of them do NOT train to fight full contact or compete.
The reason you see so many boxers, MT fighters, MMA fighters, BJJ fighters and so forth is because a sizeable percentage of them train to fight and compete.

Now, perhaps the “more correct” question is why don’t more WC people train to fight and compete.

And that is a very good question.

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[QUOTE=anerlich;1096688]
Sorry, I though you were looking for suggestions, not delivering a sermon.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree. I totally see where this has gone. As per usual, a ‘good intentions’ thread was just a covert-op mission.

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What it looks like…

And just to comment on the issue that Wing Chun doesn’t look like any other fighting:

It doesn’t look like any other fighting methodology because it doesn’t work.

If it looked like all other methods (somewhat) then, in my mind, we could all kick back with a cold one believing in our hearts that NOW our Wing Chun was functional.

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As threads go–this too is zig zagging. To answer Matt’s original questions- if I got it right..or atleast give some observations and opinions.Not arguing with others-nor preaching.

  1. Matt himself posted a shot of a wc guy who won againsts a MT guy.
  2. Lui Ming Fai’s website has won against a MT guy and his site has a shot of him .
  3. I have seen several of Matt’s sihings- not from his kwoon-in action against non wc guys in tournaments-that includes Dom, Danny and Nancy- no videos were involved.
  4. I got disqualified in a couple of matches against non wc guys for breaking the rules and excessive force..I was interested in only what works and it did. No pictures- no interest in trophies.
  5. I squared off against a MT instructor in NY in the 90s- to see what worked- and was satisfied.
    Ditto- in experimenting with grapplers and strikers.
  6. There are pics of wc against non wc that I have seen that are not on you tube.
  7. wing chun is not just conceptual- it is combative.
  8. My advice to anyone who has done wc for 8 years or so and don’t have confidence in their wc-
    do something else. Wing chun is not the only way to combat- but I am happy and confident with it.Acceptance by others is not my goal.

joy

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I trend to think its more the training rather than the system
.lots of wing chun schools don’t do any bag work or sparring, lots don’t even do fitness, just lots of chi sao, so they don’t do well when they spar , because they don’t learn opponents timing and mobile foot work.. If u want to do well sparring against other styles then u have to practice sparring

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1096862]The answer is actual quite simple:
The reason you don’t see many ( virtually none to be honest) WC practioners fighting full contact is because the VAST MAJORITY of them do NOT train to fight full contact or compete.
The reason you see so many boxers, MT fighters, MMA fighters, BJJ fighters and so forth is because a sizeable percentage of them train to fight and compete.

Now, perhaps the “more correct” question is why don’t more WC people train to fight and compete.

And that is a very good question.[/QUOTE]
Your post Wing Chun’d (simplified) it. :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1096881]Your post Wing Chun’d (simplified) it. :)[/QUOTE]

Thanks Phil :slight_smile:
Fact is that those that have used WC in fights know that that it works.
Fact is that EVERY MA system has to be trained to be used in a fight for it to work in a fight.
It’s the training, not the system.
Take pretty much ANY MA and if you train it within a fighting environment, it will work in that environment.
You and your people have shown it, Alan and his people have shown it.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1096885]Thanks Phil :slight_smile:
Fact is that those that have used WC in fights know that that it works.
Fact is that EVERY MA system has to be trained to be used in a fight for it to work in a fight.
It’s the training, not the system.
Take pretty much ANY MA and if you train it within a fighting environment, it will work in that environment.
You and your people have shown it, Alan and his people have shown it.[/QUOTE]

When you do sport fighting you certainly need to train for the requirements of particular events
so as not to gas out etc. The bjj folks are is superb shape and patient and calm- good qualities to have.
But of the rules are unclear or there are no rules you have to be prepared to do what you need to do and not play a game specially the other fellow’s game.

And on the street.. alertness, awareness and decisiveness are ahead of technique of any kind and you don’t need to film it…actually-you shouldn’t.

joy chaudhuri

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[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1096893]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you do sport fighting you certainly need to train for the requirements of particular events
so as not to gas out etc. The bjj folks are is superb shape and patient and calm- good qualities to have.
But of the rules are unclear or there are no rules you have to be prepared to do what you need to do and not play a game specially the other fellow’s game.

And on the street.. alertness, awareness and decisiveness are ahead of technique of any kind and you don’t need to film it…actually-you shouldn’t.

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

Point made.
I personally have never been a “fan” of the whole “street VS ring” thing, it makes no sense to me.
If your stuff can’t work under the best conditions ( the ring, a controlled environment with uniform rules), the chances of it working where there are no rules will be far less.
BUT the street does require a bit of a different mindset in terms of alertness and awareness, no doubt about that.

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Having been in fights in the ring, street, and also having trained with very light gloves, with and without shoes, I will say that WC and most traditional arts are taught in a way that allows you to survive more “street-style” encounters. You might not like WC punching for a ring but train with very light gloves or bare knuckles with no wrist support and the punching style starts making a lot of sense.

The kicking seems less effective in the ring. Well, look to Savate where shoes are used and you will see a lot of short snappy kicks because they wear shoes and use them as weapons.

Even classical Muay Thai is deficient for contemporary Muay thai events. Although, in a bare knuckle scenario, classical Muay Thai with its lack of boxing hand techniques might be more effective in the long run as you won’t break your hand. The modern ring is an environment that dictates certain skills and techniques. Insisting upon proving that classical WC works in that environment is just foolish. The environment dictates what you need to do.

Although, I think a guy like Phil will agree that a heck of a lot transports from classical WC into the ring. He works with some professional boxers who seem to be of the same opinion. Short, quick punching and snappy accurate kicks can be an asset. The clinching, parries, and footwork are always useful as well.

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[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1096873]As threads go–this too is zig zagging. To answer Matt’s original questions- if I got it right..or atleast give some observations and opinions.Not arguing with others-nor preaching.

  1. Matt himself posted a shot of a wc guy who won againsts a MT guy.
  2. Lui Ming Fai’s website has won against a MT guy and his site has a shot of him .
  3. I have seen several of Matt’s sihings- not from his kwoon-in action against non wc guys in tournaments-that includes Dom, Danny and Nancy- no videos were involved.
  4. I got disqualified in a couple of matches against non wc guys for breaking the rules and excessive force..I was interested in only what works and it did. No pictures- no interest in trophies.
  5. I squared off against a MT instructor in NY in the 90s- to see what worked- and was satisfied.
    Ditto- in experimenting with grapplers and strikers.
  6. There are pics of wc against non wc that I have seen that are not on you tube.
  7. wing chun is not just conceptual- it is combative.
  8. My advice to anyone who has done wc for 8 years or so and don’t have confidence in their wc-
    do something else. Wing chun is not the only way to combat- but I am happy and confident with it.Acceptance by others is not my goal.

joy[/QUOTE]

Wow, way to throw me under the bus Joy!

I’ve tried to leave the lineage out of it and have even responded that this has nothing to do with my Sifu, Sigung, etc… This is a personal revelation and yet again, the small print at the bottom that no one seemed to read, I simply asked “Anyone else here feel the same way?”

I’ve also stated that I love WC and will probably never stop and that WC is a very effective self-defense system.

I love how you say things too, like you aren’t responding to me directly but choose an indirect path to save face. And it’s definitely not about acceptance by others either Joy, and quite honestly, the indirect way you implied that to me offends me.

Joy, you have a PhD, don’t know what it’s in, but hey, that means you’re probably a smart guy.

It doesn’t take much after using a little scientific theory to see that, bottom line, either WC is one of the most difficult systems in the world to apply in a “pure” sense or it’s simply not there, period, at least in the understanding that the WC community promotes. And I don’t believe guys who fight and the actual technique isn’t there, to be still fighting with WC

And that was my point, simple as that, WC has it’s place in fighting but I choose reality over fantasy. Doesn’t mean I’m bashing WC or my teacher or your teacher.

I am happy and confident with my WC Joy. I think I can apply “certain” things against a “worthy” opponent. I think “others” can too. And I think there is that rare exception, as well.

But I’ve concluded that there’s some serious limitations to WC, and that the WC community is somewhat responsible for promoting an idea that it’s a flawless system, hence putting the average practitioner in a somewhat safety situation. And at the end of the day Joy, the lack of evidence supports me more than you.

Matt

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1096895]Point made.
I personally have never been a “fan” of the whole “street VS ring” thing, it makes no sense to me.
If your stuff can’t work under the best conditions ( the ring, a controlled environment with uniform rules), the chances of it working where there are no rules will be far less.BUT the street does require a bit of a different mindset in terms of alertness and awareness, no doubt about that.[/QUOTE]

That’s the point. A lot of people dismiss the ring as not being representative of what goes on in the street. This should immediately raise a flag as there are many factors that are essential in both environments: punching precision and power, timing, distance control, balanced and swift footwork, etc. Sanjuro’s right, poor performance in the ring is not likely to improve dramatically in the street (unless a Glock is added to the mix…).

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[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1096968]That’s the point. A lot of people dismiss the ring as not being representative of what goes on in the street. This should immediately raise a flag as there are many factors that are essential in both environments: punching precision and power, timing, distance control, balanced and swift footwork, etc. Sanjuro’s right, poor performance in the ring is unlikely going to improve dramatically in the street (unless a Glock is added to the mix…).[/QUOTE]

My old TKD instructor once said:
If you can’t Knock a guy out with a kick wearing loose pants, after having stretched and warmed up, with a level floor, under ideal conditions, how the **** are you gonna do it on the street?

That goes for pretty much every other technique you can think of.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1096970]My old TKD instructor once said:
If you can’t Knock a guy out with a kick wearing loose pants, after having stretched and warmed up, with a level floor, under ideal conditions, how the **** are you gonna do it on the street?

That goes for pretty much every other technique you can think of.[/QUOTE]

Gotta steal that quote now! :smiley: