Why is there not a single WC fighter, anywhere!!!!!!!!!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1096650]I have a little different take on why you don’t see WC/VT/WT used in competitive fights. You don’t see knives used either… or clubs. You do see two reasonably well matched athletes dueling it out with rules designed for a “fair fight”. Under those circumstances, MMA techniques and training are your best choice. Period.

Now I’m a pretty average guy, and I’m going to be 56 in two months. I work hard to stay in condition… but there’s no way I could ever stand up to the rigors of fighting in a ring or cage. Nor would I want to. On the other hand WC (NVTO) works well for me. I enjoy the training, both the practical side, and the fun, “theoretical” chi-sau stuff. And there’s lots of stuff I can use, following the motto of using “Old age and treachery to defeat speed and youth”. That means not going face-to-face and mano-a-mano against some superbly trained brute. If I ever had to defend myself against a highly skilled and conditioned young fighter, I would use every and any “treacherous” approach possibe, knowing that it isn’t a “fair fight”. In a fair fight I would lose. So the WC and Eskrima I train are designed for an unfair fight, physically and psychologically.

Here’s what I’m talkin’ about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWTNBRs7Ccs

BTW, one reason why you won’t find any actual videos of this approach is because it would be evidence against whoever does fight like that. Most people don’t like the idea of spending a long term behind bars much better than being savagely beaten. Think about it.

So to your point: if you want to compete and you have the requisite physical gifts, great. Train boxing, MT, BJJ, get into great shape and spar a lot. If you are an older guy, and not a natural athlete, there are smarter ways to live your life and still learn how to “take care of yourself”. For some of us, WC fits this bill. Cheers.[/QUOTE]

But there is no reason why you can’t apply the same “sneaky” mentality to any other MA.

The real question, IMO, is why should we use WC techniques over other techniques in certain situations. Besides, being able to aply your stuff in a fair match should be, I think, the most basic level of any MA training. Everything will become easier after that.

22

Some of you understood me, some of you didn’t understand, some of you misquoted me, and some of you took it as a threat…

Look, first thing’s first, this has nothing to do with my teacher or lineage. IMHO I think I have some of the purest WC teaching available. The HKM/Augustine Fong line. I’ve been practicing WC for over 10 years now and have obtained a fairly good skill level within the system.

Once again, I’m not bashing WC. I think it’s great and is a very effective self-defense system. I just, to some degree, have come to the realization that it pretty much stops there. I no longer believe it to be the ‘end all, be all’ that so many in the WC community believe it to be. I view it now more as a supplemental system more than a primary system.

At one point in time I thought it was more a ‘combat art’ but I now believe it to be more a ‘concept art’. It’s not that I haven’t tested it out myself because I have. Many times in both a real environment and also a sparring environment. You can fight dirty all day long and win, and WC is very good at having dirty technique. But that about amounts to someone’s in your face, they push you or something of the like, and you attack easily obliterating them. In a lot of ways it’s no different from a sucker punch, and at least to this WC practitioner, that doesn’t amount to quality of skill. Anyone could use that aggressive concept and win with any technique, WC or not.

Now when it comes to an opponent who’s not that stupid and has a fair amount of skill themselves, things drastically change in regards to WC. I know some WC guys here do practice sparring. That’s great. But the technique that everyone here learned, the 3 forms, the dummy, the weapons forms, Chi Sao, etc., essentially the technique itself, are simply not there when facing off against a worthy opponent. It goes right out the window and they become more ‘natural’ fighters. Now they can call it WC and say that that’s their basis for what they’re doing. That’s fine, but that just proves that the WC system itself is just ‘concept’ based then. These guys have evolved their technique outside of the original system and I don’t know about you, but that tells me something.

Now you’ll either understand what I’m trying to express here or you won’t. That’s fine. But just remember that whether you’re a teacher or a student, you are being irresponsible with your safety or your students safety if you are lead to believe that the WC system alone will protect you.

Let me state this once again, I love Wing Chun, I will continue to study it probably my whole life. I’ve just realized that, unlike the type of “fantasy-fu” that is talked about within this forum about the different lineages, the “fantasy-fu” that the WC community ‘as a whole’ promotes will no longer have it’s grip on me. I know what WC can do and I know what WC cannot do. And if I ever want to grow as a martial artist, that’s the first step.

23

For me,

This is a simple and obvious issue.

WCK today which is influence by Hong Kong Ip Man evolution is similar to learning to drive an automatic car. it provides one a basic knowledge on how to drive an automatic car with limited condition on the car (limited to automatic) and driving within the city.

This type of automatic shift driving is good for small tiny commute but it doesnt work if one is going to go safari in different part of the world.

Real fighting training is like mastering how to drive different shift of automobile, maintain and repair different type of automobile. driving two wheel drive, four wheel drive, truck…etc. driving with ice chain…etc.. driving in mud, ice, sand, water, rock, hill, valley…etc.

So, the present Hong Kong Ip Man influence evolve WCK does a very good job for little self-defense figther against those who doesnt know how to fight. But facing the real fighter, it doesnt do the job. That is obvious.

So, one needs to learn what to expect. it is just impractical to expect a city commute driver can handle safari.

There are too many assumption in WCK today which is hidden. similar to one assume the car is automatic. and the driving speed is 30 miles per hour area.

Obviously this type of art is not the same with the art in the Red Boat era when it is used to fight the real fighter. it is a totally different training.

I often talk about the 20ch and six directional force vectors. just take a look, most WCner is not even expose to this type of basic of basic. that means they are not train to handle their basic body motion well. or means their body doesnt function well. also, with lots of bad habit such as the general training of the SLT/SNT, it get one stuck. so it is hopeless to talk about WC fighter based on this type of training because it is like talking learning to riding a bicycle compare with a full train military transportation professional army.

I would say CLF today is a much better system compare with this “city commute” art.

finally, full range fighting is not every one’s game, not every one can do it not every age can do it. there are lots of body conditioning, weapon conditioning…etc. beside the strategy and technics.

The person with a different type of body condition and weapon conditioning might needs a ceratin technics or might not even needs much technics to do the job because the body and weapon ability varies. So, that is the reality.

For example, the WCK’s shock power. it supposed to be fast accelerated or quick draw and very powerfully penerated. now look at the movie Ip Man 2. even that is just a movie which the director can fantasy anything. the director end up using that chain punch against the boxer. can those type of punch be fast enough and strong enough? Nope. that weapon cant do the job.

So, WCK per the movie doesnt have a weapon or doesnt have a big gun. and so how is one without a big gun can do anything to those has bigger gun?

So, those tan bong fok and chain punch are just city commute tool. in the ancient time, one doesnt call oneself a martial artist without having a big gun.

WCK’s big gun suppose to be the Shock power and what is WCK today without that big gun?

So it is analogy of a tiger without the claw, without the body streght… welll that is a cat. it is good for chasing the mouse but not even fighting a bull. That is the reality of WCK.

Chi sau is just a city tour simulation tool like to those flight or driving simulator, how real is that? can one even learn how to drive a car with just driving simulator? that is called playing video game instead of driving. it is a good tool but it is not reality. not to mention the simulator is limited to one and only one area of the city.

if you want to get back to the ancient WCK, then going back to the 20Ch and 6DVF… to do train for the basic is the first step. other then that it is really hopeless.

Just for fun,

to0 bad I am not a single young college grad with hot shot position trying to find a girl friend, otherwise I will pick the beautiful flight attendance and let them use thier WCK to set and trap themself up .
http://www.terminalu.com/travel-news/hong-kong-airlines-cabin-crew-take-kung-fu-lessons/8774/

it is better they dont have their WCK that make them safer.

24

[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1096643]This argument is overused and falls completely flat. Everyone says they didn’t have cameras back in the day during their fights. Than they talk about the current fighting their students do. Then they put up clips of chi Sao or drilling only. Cameras are readily available today and if you wanted to film sparring you would. Maybe many are waiting for the sparring to look good so it does t get made fun of by Internet snipers. Maybe people are afraid to admit that fighting looks like fighting and WC training doesn’t resemble fighting.

This argument goes for many traditional styles and not just WC.[/QUOTE]
I wrote:
“Well, I fought and won full contact matches when not everyone had a camera like now.
So I know that WC can work. There are some fight clips on my website and my two youtube channels. Then there is Shawn Obasi.”
Just in case you were referring to my post. Along with my Wing Chun training I was trained by Yoel Judah, and Mark Breland.
These fights were mostly at Fu Jow Pai events where elbows, knees, and takedowns were legal. You were even allowed to strike an opponent on the ground no more than 3 times. My fights weren’t videoed but I did fight a famous fighter from NY named Jonas Nunez. Also, I don’t just have drills and chi sao clips. I have clips of our guys competing in full contact events as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-unagGqPw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aue6bIplPwI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmGajyKqbeQ

There are also clips of other WC people fighting on my channel. I’m training people for fights now. Where are you located? Maybe you can stop by our NYC school.

25

I don’t know if any of the guys on this forum know this but both a ‘distance fighter’ and a ‘grappler’ want you to try to close the gap, so that they don’t have to, and then they try to break your timing, and if their timing is good, you’re screwed.

I’ve trained in BJJ for about twelve years, plus lengthy spells of wrestling and MMA, so yeah, I do have some inkling.

And there’s lots of stuff I can use, following the motto of using “Old age and treachery to defeat speed and youth”.

I’m older than you. So are a number of regular posters on this forum, including Phil and Joy.

That means not going face-to-face and mano-a-mano against some superbly trained brute. If I ever had to defend myself against a highly skilled and conditioned young fighter, I would use every and any “treacherous” approach possibe, knowing that it isn’t a “fair fight”.

The thread was about WC working against other martial arts in a competitive situation, not self defense or escaping a criminally violent situation. Martial skill is one of the least important factors in surviving violent crime.

Didn’t see a lot of WC or stickwork in the Butch and Sundance clip. Plus, yeah, that was a MOVIE…

I know what WC can do and I know what WC cannot do. And if I ever want to grow as a martial artist, that’s the first step.

Well, exactly. After the first decade or so of training, you SHOULD be starting to look for holes and weaknesses, and seeing where the rules need to be broken.

If YOU’RE not happy with Wing Chun, it’s not up to anyone else but YOU to change that. Don’t expect other WC people to fight full contact for you so you can feel comfortable about your choice of MA. If you want things to change, it’s basically up to you. No one else’s responsibility.

26

I often talk about the 20ch and six directional force vectors

Way too often.

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[QUOTE=anerlich;1096670]I’ve trained in BJJ for about twelve years, plus lengthy spells of wrestling and MMA, so yeah, I do have some inkling.[/QUOTE]

Cool, good for you, what is your point in response to my point?

[QUOTE=anerlich;1096670]I’m older than you. So are a number of regular posters on this forum, including Phil and Joy.[/QUOTE]

Once again, I don’t understand how you are adding to the conversation

[QUOTE=anerlich;1096670]The thread was about WC working against other martial arts in a competitive situation, not self defense or escaping a criminally violent situation. Martial skill is one of the least important factors in surviving violent crime.

Didn’t see a lot of WC or stickwork in the Butch and Sundance clip. Plus, yeah, that was a MOVIE…[/QUOTE]

Why are you picking on Grumblegeezer? And it was to some degree about self-defense in regards to a skilled, experienced opponent

[QUOTE=anerlich;1096670]Well, exactly. After the first decade or so of training, you SHOULD be starting to look for holes and weaknesses, and seeing where the rules need to be broken.

If YOU’RE not happy with Wing Chun, it’s not up to anyone else but YOU to change that. Don’t expect other WC people to fight full contact for you so you can feel comfortable about your choice of MA. If you want things to change, it’s basically up to you. No one else’s responsibility.[/QUOTE]

No sh!t!

You fall into the category of someone who doesn’t understand what I am talking about. That’s ok but maybe you should go reread my posts again…

28

[QUOTE=anerlich;1096670]Well, exactly. After the first decade or so of training, you SHOULD be starting to look for holes and weaknesses, and seeing where the rules need to be broken.

If YOU’RE not happy with Wing Chun, it’s not up to anyone else but YOU to change that. Don’t expect other WC people to fight full contact for you so you can feel comfortable about your choice of MA. If you want things to change, it’s basically up to you. No one else’s responsibility.[/QUOTE]

Just in case you didn’t read my post above here’s an excerpt:

"At one point in time I thought it was more a ‘combat art’ but I now believe it to be more a ‘concept art’. It’s not that I haven’t tested it out myself because I have. Many times in both a real environment and also a sparring environment. You can fight dirty all day long and win, and WC is very good at having dirty technique. But that about amounts to someone’s in your face, they push you or something of the like, and you attack easily obliterating them. In a lot of ways it’s no different from a sucker punch, and at least to this WC practitioner, that doesn’t amount to quality of skill. Anyone could use that aggressive concept and win with any technique, WC or not.

Now when it comes to an opponent who’s not that stupid and has a fair amount of skill themselves, things drastically change in regards to WC. I know some WC guys here do practice sparring. That’s great. But the technique that everyone here learned, the 3 forms, the dummy, the weapons forms, Chi Sao, etc., essentially the technique itself, are simply not there when facing off against a worthy opponent. It goes right out the window and they become more ‘natural’ fighters. Now they can call it WC and say that that’s their basis for what they’re doing. That’s fine, but that just proves that the WC system itself is just ‘concept’ based then. These guys have evolved their technique outside of the original system and I don’t know about you, but that tells me something."

29

[QUOTE=anerlich;1096670]Well, exactly. After the first decade or so of training, you SHOULD be starting to look for holes and weaknesses, and seeing where the rules need to be broken.[/QUOTE]

Realizing what is working and what is not working is the awakening:

Some people, disillusioned, quit their Ving Tsun training.

Others, realize that this is the first step and take things in their own hand. They realize that they and only they are responsible of their own development, and start a whole new journey. They start re-examining their previous understanding of Ving Tsun through the goggles of sparring. They maximize the limited time that is available to them by stopping to listen to those who just make them waste time, and start focusing on those that help them to acquire real skill… Things get interesting!

Which pill do you choose to take?

30

Quote:
Originally Posted by anerlich
I’ve trained in BJJ for about twelve years, plus lengthy spells of wrestling and MMA, so yeah, I do have some inkling.

Cool, good for you, what is your point in response to my point?

You said, to me and another guy:

I don’t know if any of the guys on this forum know this

My point is that I do know this.

Why are you picking on Grumblegeezer? And it was to some degree about self-defense in regards to a skilled, experienced opponent

OK. I misunderstood your intent. May or may not be my fault.

Just in case you didn’t read my post above here’s an excerpt:

I did read them. You say you’ve tested it out. But you’re still unhappy. Maybe you need to approach things from a different angle.

You fall into the category of someone who doesn’t understand what I am talking about.

Sorry, I though you were looking for suggestions, not delivering a sermon.

31

why is there not a single WC fighter , anywhere

[QUOTE=Vernon;1096577]Hello, newbie perspective here…

I’ve recently started training in JKD. I have a real interest and respect for Wing Chun and it’s some of the most enjoyable parts of my workouts. However, I see WC as a very valuable part of a bigger system of fighting (JKD or whatever one wants to call it) rather than the complete system itself. There are vital skills, concepts, and tools (e.g. pak sao, forward pressure, economy of motion) that one can use from WC during a real fight and/or full contact event; so looking for instances of people successfully using elements of WC during a fight seems more logical to me than looking for folks using exclusively WC during a fight.

One of the most profound posts I’ve read here recently was when Phil Redmond stated something to the effect of him being a Martial Artist who specializes in Wing Chun rather than being strictly a WC man. I really like this philosophy.

Just because one doesn’t see a plethora of videos on YouTube of fighters effectively using nothing but Wing Chun during full contact fights doesn’t equate, in my mind anyways, to WC lacking practicality in today’s world. It simply speaks to the wisdom of using some of the tools of WC, which have withstood the test of time, as one means to an end rather than the only means to an end.[/QUOTE]

Vernon ,

Welcome , to this thread , who is your teacher in JKD ? Are you learning the original JKD or JKD concepts ? Just wanted to know ?

32

[QUOTE=anerlich;1096688]
Well, f*** you. I hope you remain unable to resolve your issues, because I don’t see why anyone should bother trying to give you advice. Sheesh :mad:[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t looking for advice, I was asking if anyone else had this revelation or felt the same way.

I’ve repeated myself about 4 times now in an attempt to explain what I’m talking about and I’ve repeated myself about 4 times now that I’m not bashing WC. Really don’t know what else to say in response to you anymore. Don’t know how long you’ve been training or your personal experiences, just trying to state here that WC and the style we all know doesn’t show itself in real application against a skilled opponent. Hence, it’s more concept than reality. Maybe I drank the WC world kool aid for too long but personally, that realization, kind of depresses me, and I’m just asking if anyone else had a similar experience. That’s it.

I don’t buy all the excuses of why WC doesn’t have a single example anywhere of a successful domination against a skilled opponent. There is none. And I also don’t agree with all of the WC guys claiming their sparring is still WC. The Alan Orr students show next to no WC technique. Hence once again, if it’s anything, it’s concept.

I don’t know why no one on here sees that lack of technique in fighting, a real honest fight, does not mean you’re doing WC just because you train in it. If you can’t apply that technique and it doesn’t “look” like WC, it’s only borderline WC at best.

Now either WC is the hardest form of martial art in the world to apply in a real situation against a skilled opponent or it’s just good concept!!!

I want everyone to remember here that a concept art is not bad, it makes you think, and helps you to understand and develop positive fighting attributes. But at the end of the day, it’s essentially the equivalent of the coach in the corner of the ring yelling at his boxer on what he should do! The boxer doesn’t disagree with his coach, he’s just having a real hard time following through with it!

33

The problem is your Ving Tsun. :wink:

GH

34

[QUOTE=Graham H;1096692]The problem is your Ving Tsun. :wink:

GH[/QUOTE]

I’m tired of your sh!t Graham. Just an antagonist who would get a good a$$ kicking by just about anyone who ran into you in person.

35

[QUOTE=mvbrown21;1096693]I’m tired of your sh!t Graham. Just an antagonist who would get a good a$$ kicking by just about anyone who ran into you in person.[/QUOTE]

LMAO…dont like the truth is your problem mate and that’s easy for you to say sitting over there in front of your computer. You know f**k all about me so don’t make statements that you can’t justify!!! Anytime your are in the UK why don’t you look me up??? I’ve looked at your videos and that’s my opinion. If you fight like that you will get served bro!!

mwah

GH

36

…you have cheered me right up! I love you! LOL

37

[QUOTE=Graham H;1096694]LMAO…dont like the truth is your problem mate and that’s easy for you to say sitting over there in front of your computer. You know f**k all about me so don’t make statements that you can’t justify!!! Anytime your are in the UK why don’t you look me up??? I’ve looked at your videos and that’s my opinion. If you fight like that you will get served bro!!

mwah

GH[/QUOTE]

I’m the one sitting in front of my computer?? You’re on here religiously dude!! I didn’t know you were from the UK, explains a lot really…

38

[QUOTE=mvbrown21;1096697]I’m the one sitting in front of my computer?? You’re on here religiously dude!! I didn’t know you were from the UK, explains a lot really…[/QUOTE] Mate why you knocking the UK ? It’s not were your From ,but were your AT pls stay on topic even tho its not really leading anywhere constructive!:rolleyes:

39

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1096669]I wrote:
“Well, I fought and won full contact matches when not everyone had a camera like now.
So I know that WC can work. There are some fight clips on my website and my two youtube channels. Then there is Shawn Obasi.”
Just in case you were referring to my post. Along with my Wing Chun training I was trained by Yoel Judah, and Mark Breland.
These fights were mostly at Fu Jow Pai events where elbows, knees, and takedowns were legal. You were even allowed to strike an opponent on the ground no more than 3 times. My fights weren’t videoed but I did fight a famous fighter from NY named Jonas Nunez. Also, I don’t just have drills and chi sao clips. I have clips of our guys competing in full contact events as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-unagGqPw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aue6bIplPwI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmGajyKqbeQ

There are also clips of other WC people fighting on my channel. I’m training people for fights now. Where are you located? Maybe you can stop by our NYC school.[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t talking about you. I’ve seen clips of your students fighting.

40

[QUOTE=GlennR;1096573]Post of the year in my opinion
Refreshingly honest and hard to (if not impossible) to argue against

I think youve hit it on the head with this line…
“I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I’m seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn’t very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too.”

Youre right… its a self defense system to protect you in a street situation.
And thats where it ends in my opinion
Ive done WC for 21 years now (not so much the last 5) and now i Box/MT… quite simply they are better systems if you want to reach a high level of fighting.
I wont speak for the other combat styles (BJJ, wrestling etc) ,as i dont do them, but i would think the same in regards to those.

As you state, the evidence is there to support these styles, but theres none for WC.
Dont get me wrong, i love WC but im realistic in what i expect out of it.

Once again, great post
GlennR[/QUOTE]

Sure it works well against skilled fighters. I started training WC 56 years ago, and it is the only way I know to fight. I can make it work, even now in my old age it has not abandoned me. Most all other forms of fighting will eventually abandon you due to your old age. WC is forever once learned. I have a high ranking in Jap Jiujitsu, and yet only use it when I do not want to really bust someone up. But if I am mad at you and really want to do you a job, I can do it with WC. I have the skills. If you really want to make WC work for you, you have to have confidence in it and train it like you trust it. Otherwise it is just a game of chi sao for you.