Why Is It Working?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

After 8-9 years of Kenpo Karate with fall-out techniques and predetermined attack-defense senarios…cookie cutter senarios…and where it all breaks down and doesn’t work in sparring situations…

After 1.5 years of another martial art with similar conditioning…

What is it with Wing Chun that is now enabling me to defend myself? I’m really curious? Is it the Chess-like game of Chi Sao? Is it the drills that we do where your opponent stands 12 inches from your face and throws a random attack? Is it the system in it’s entirety?

I’m just really intrigued with what is going on in my head. After 11 years of other martial arts, I never really had gained confidence in myself and my abilities. I was never able to stop as many hits in a random environment as now, and it really blows my mind. Friends and acquaintances can no longer get that “fun” shot in. My Wing Chun is always on.

Maybe others out there have had the same experience or something similar. Please share and give your opinion as to what you believe is the cause of your results!

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

2

I feel ya friend! It is a big switch from Karate. I too, used to train in two styles of Karate, but could not apply either in real situations. I discovered that it was not practical for me, personally. To block a massive opponents strike, head on, just wasn’t working, nor realistic for me. Wing chun is a different world. We don’t meet force with force. That is a big change coming from arts such as Karate and Tae Kwon Do. Little is more. Spinning hook kicks to the head seem ridiculous now. :stuck_out_tongue: So continue on your Wing Chun path. I think you will continue to learn, develope and enjoy. :smiley:

3

Hi Kenton,

IME, pressure and fighting distance has a lot to do with wing chun’s success in certain situations. In light-to-medium sparring between a wing chun man and a martial artist of another traditional art, there is an advantage of establishing our ideal range, and then chaining a non-stop flow of attacks together the way that we do that makes it very difficult for many traditional stylists to handle. They will often get so busy defending that they have little time to think about how they will counter.

-But what makes wing chun successful in those scenarios (the strategy of using aggressive pressure to put the fight into a preferred range and keep it there while one launches all kinds of attacks), was also used successfully by many grapplers in the early UFCs.

The parallel seems pretty straightforward when I look at it like this:

wing chun vs tae kwon do / kenpo / shaolin / etc. wing chun’s strategy is:

  1. Close the gap to preferred range
  2. Maintain pressure and control so opponent does not escape back to longer range.
  3. Launch rapid attacks that opponent is not as comfortable dealing with as they are at their preferred range.

grappling vs wing chun / tae kwon do / kenpo / etc. grappling’s strategy is:

  1. Close the gap to preferred range
  2. Maintain pressure and control so opponent does not escape back to longer range.
  3. Launch rapid attacks that opponent is not as comfortable dealing with as they are at their preferred range.

The reason I qualified the wing chun success with this strategy in the first paragraph (light to medium sparring, and with traditional asian martial arts), is that I do not feel it is nearly as effective against full contact fighters such as boxers and MT stylists, particularly when you are sparring medium to hard… They will shell-up or move, defend, and let you expend a good deal of energy, not minding if they take a some glancing, or even medium-powered blows (and they usually much harder to hit than TMA stylists too, by the way). -Then, when they see an opening, they will pick their shot, and counter explosively… I think the key against these kinds of fighters is to know how to be aggressive, but in a controlled and disclipline way (or as Ernie says; lining up the target and firing instead of just spraying bullets all over the place). Conditioning is also invaluable, because these guys will not be easily overwhelmed and defeated the way a typical McDojo brown belt / black belt would be. It’s (almost always) going to take a lot more than a single burst of attacks…

-Lawrence

4

IMHHO,

Basically, it is not that one doesnt have confident. It is that the Intuitive of one tells one something is missing.

And lots of time we ignore the message and resolve to changing school or style’s type of quick fix. which doesnt really do much.

The missing might be one doesnt have adequate inner Coordinate or center. or something physical need to be work out.

IE one can get scared off or got the hot button push…etc
one’s body is not strong enought or integrated enough to be able to sustain the in coming dis-ruption being it a force related or a speed related..

Things can go on and on and on. But, only one can find out about oneself since everyone is different

As I post in other post, is fear in front or behind our eyes? how stratergy is in the realm of intuitive behind our eyes.

Lots to find out about ourself. and oftern it is not the style but ourself. We attract the stlye. When we want power training, we might even go for weight lifting… When we want stratergy training we might take out more philosophical art…

So, it is a journney within a self discorvery. IMHHHO.

Good luck for your journey.

5

I myself was a green belt in ryukyu karate in my early teens. I trained under the taika oyata lineage. Master Oyata was very skilled, and he was okinawan champion even. I love the ideas in karate, to put everything you have into one strike, it has its own grace to it. Its poetic in a way.

Then comes wing chun, which is a radical idea for any person with experience in other martial arts. We like to get close, we like to crowd the space similiar to a grappler but we like to strike. Its a radical idea and goes against a lot of other systems. Even though wing chun differs greatly (after doing a bit of traveling I have witnessed this first hand, there are big differences in other lineages wing chun, but I am just pointing out its different, NOT BETTER!) the core is based of simply, refined, straight forward motions and energies.

Now…

I also do six elbows kung fu and taiji, and I think they help my wing chun develope even further. I take what I know from those systems and I apply it with wing chun concepts. I also dabble in jiujitsu when I find someone who I can work out with.

To each his own, I have seen and heard of some crazy good choy li fut guys, and I have heard stories about awesome hung gar practitioners. So, if the shoe fits wear it, and if wing chun fits you then it will fit you like a glove. Just remember you have control over it, it does not control you.

6

Why does it work? In my opinion because its principles can be scientifically proven. If we put them to use correctly against most other fighters, they will win.

Most other arts don’t have that. Most styles don’t rely on practical principles of fighting. They focus on acrobatic, gymnastic, showy or power moves. They make it about a sport or about a show.

7

Just to play devil’s advocate here, a lot of those scientific theories can be tossed out the window. I know plenty of non wing chun people who are great martial artists, and some of them I would put my money on over a wing chunner.

8

Its the “flow” man! The FLOW! Nothing prearranged. No “tit for tat.” Just flow! :slight_smile:

Keith

9

There will always be people in other MA systems that are great/effective fighters, because they love their choosen art and work it well. If they were WC players would they be more effective? Yes IMO. Not all people are fighters and do not look at WC that way.

James

10

Nice post Lawrence ! [ and not because you mentioned me hahaha]

but because you did what it is that makes [functional wing Chun ] effective , you used you mind , you thought about it based on experience !

functional wing Chun [ once you get beyond techniques and shapes all the superficial marketing junk the pollutes most of the stuff out there ]

once you get past being a robot trapped by a stick figure doctrine , you learn to THINK progressively and adaptively based on a goal and a some what consistent group of supporting strategies

your able to think and flow , because your training has given your body automatic responses , economical habits [ if you are still in ‘‘trapped by wing Chun stage’’ you can not do this , your stuck in preset shapes and techniques , a robot that acts like a man ]

so the key is to develop NATURAL REACTION not shape , form or technique .

Shape form and technique will as you put only work ‘’ up to a point ‘’ and them crumble , the thing is many never get to that point there training doesn’t take them there , but life will if you dare to adventure .

so if you have Functional wing Chun that can think and flow based on natural reaction , it will kick in no matter what lead , or what stance or sitting ,walking , rolling on the floor , what ever

but if all you have is shape , technique and form . well then you are limited and it will only take you so far

again very nice post L . got me to creep out of my cave

11

Nicely said!
:smiley:

12

I agree also, so in other words the individual has to make it work for themselves, the shape becomes natural and adjusted to one’s own self and body. This is the case with any endeavor in life, not just application of MA techniques. You can learn the theoretical application of Martial Technique but applying it in an alive situation is always different, that’s why the intensity and randomness has to be increased with the student’s abilities (the reason for testing and levels). But on forums like this, theoretical analysis is all we have since most of the time we are not in each others presence, which is why everything here is theoretical.

Why does stuff work now, for my self. I remember the first inkling of such a thing, long ago, it was the constant thinking, practicing and most importantly living the art daily that made such things happen, IMO. How does one maintain these abilities? Same approach, with constant learning, development and refinement as your wisdom with “your” own art progresses throughout your life. The WC you are learning does become individualized and your own eventually. The WC I possess is the same as my Sifu’s or Sihing’s but not the same at the sametime, because as individuals we are not built the same, nor do we think the same, perceive the same way or perform it when needed the same, so it is different, but based on concepts passed on to us by other’s that have been there before us.

James

13

What if Sifu & Sihing only fought scrubs and their concepts were flawed?

What if Sifu & Sihing had gained some real knowledge, but were afraid of doing what it took to maintain it / improve upon it, or didn’t want to drive off potential students, and so watered things down?

(James, I’m not referring to your Sifu & Sihing. -Just making a general statement that all kung fu practicioners ought to consider.)

-Lawrence

14

Why does it work? In my opinion because its principles can be scientifically proven.

Actually, “scientific proof” involves a lot more than just having nice principles and doing math. REAL science verifies its “theories” and “principles” with experimentation.

Saying WC has principles and theories is one thing. “Proof” is still requires empirical evidence, e.g. documented evidence of experiemental verification, viz. the winning of fights. Though the samples are too small to have statistical value, in the UFC it could be argued that experiments have proved WC doesn’t work.

If we put them to use correctly against most other fighters, they will win.

That statement is about as scientifically valid as “90% of fights end up on the ground”, and as before is not supported by experimental results.

Most other arts don’t have that. Most styles don’t rely on practical principles of fighting. They focus on acrobatic, gymnastic, showy or power moves. They make it about a sport or about a show.

Define “most” and “practical”. BTW, that statement is a generalisation, arguably straw man, arguably false, and definitely unscientific.

15

Ya, but every time someone on here posts “Proof” & “Evidence”, the nay sayers start another thread in the hopes that their supporters and others will follow them to cover up the success story. It’s been reported many times of people’s stories of WC success in real combat and in competitions only to be ignored or forgotten, so to say that ONLY the UFC counts as a testing ground is ridiculous. Does this mean all of us have to compete in the UFC now to prove ourselves as combat effective?? I don’t think so, and so do many others.

To me UFC=RULES & INDIVIDUALITY, and does not reflect a particularly MA effectiveness. Do each and every MMA fighter in the UFC use the exact same system, or they all doing different things to tweek their own strengths in combat sports. Plus in the end UFC is still a sport, with rules and referee’s. The thing that impresses me about these MMA athletes (and that is what they are) are their work ethic, they work hard and consistently and that they have the guts to get into the octagon to prove it, not their particular brand of Martial Art. Most every time I watch a UFC fight I see things they can be doing more efficiently and/or effectively.

James

16

Look, I was pointing out the flaws in the method of “argument” of the other poster. I gave a ridiculous example on purpose to illustrate this.

My own academy has its share of WC success stories.

Most every time I watch a UFC fight I see things they can be doing more efficiently and/or effectively.

LOL. you and every beer drinking couch potato and armchair quarterback who never trained. Big deal. No doubt Royce, Shamrock, et al could look at the performance of anyone on this forum including you and your instructor and say exactly the same thing, with equal validity.

17

What I’m referring to is a new-found confidence in what I am training. For example: for the first time, I’m not taken by surprise attacks from friends and aquaintances and other people that want to test you.

Granted, I haven’t been in a fight outside of the kwoon, but the key thing that I’m feeling different about is confidence in my ability. After reading what some have posted, I would be in agreement about the ability to ‘flow’ or ‘not be a robot of the system.’

It’s also that nonpre-programmed pressure training that helps. Random attacks. I mean random with stars because real random is someone you don’t know with a broader range of attacks. But, even in my early stage of training, the random punches and kicks from close/far range have seriously helped.

Back in my training days of old, everything was layed out in full:

Kenton, you’re going to do a downward foot block, step in, punch. Don’t worry, your attacker will only be throwing one punch to your abdomen and he’ll pose for you so that all your counterattacks will make contact…etc.

…sidenote: I watched a Kung-Fu demo tape that I got from martialartsmart.com. This is not to discredit what they sell…I am the consumer that bought the tape…anywho - there were demonstrations of fancy kung-fu styles where it seemed like the person in the centre was taking on about 8 people who didn’t know anything about fighting. (and won) Some attackers actually just stood around and waited to be hit! I see so much bad in the kung-fu world. No wonder we get a bad rap about not being about to perform real-world self-defense. No one takes us seriously.

It’s really one thing to practise a technique in a form…then to apply it in the Chi Sao…and then to apply it in a random setting.

Thanks for sharing your opinions…

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

18

:rolleyes: You would loose…so would your “great martial artist”. WT is scientific application, NOT “theories”.

19

What it did for me…

I feel VT has a very good apllication of timing which in fighting is invaluable.

Im all too sick of seeing lots of styles and VT included practitioners using slow tempo timing.
You punch me ill punch you, were taking turns…sort of thing.

We are taught to defend and attack at almost the same time. With economic actions we are supposed to gain a split second here and a split second there which if used effectivly can be a huge advantage…you land three times but only recieve one…?

I feel for myself its from the very basics. In Chi Sao we learn that when someone attacks we feel, react, and retaliate. Then this trickles down into almost every aspect of our style. when someone kicks me i block and kick back at the same time not one after the other…

Perhaps this is one aspect that makes you more confident or able to deal with sparring better now ?

Dont get me wrong i know lots of styles have these ideas and use them but IMHO i think VT has a good system to train students how to harness this strategy and put it into practice. Thats my experience. :slight_smile:

20

Kitten,

you’ve only studied WT for 2 months, and nothing else, right?

WT is a good art, but there is a whole other world out there…

Until you see (with your own eyes) your sifu and sihings toying with good; boxers, Muay Thai fighters, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu stylists, and wrestlers, you shouldn’t be so quick to believe that WT belongs on a special pedastel.

WT is merely theory, until an individual practicioner can actually apply it against a; skilled, resisting, opponent and makes it their own.

-Ask your sifu if he’s ever sparred against the any of the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu guys in Billings, or maybe some of the mixed martial arts guys in your town…

Keep your mind open and don’t let yourself be brainwashed by anyone, -no matter what their title (grandmaster, sifu, whatever…) Let your own judgement have the final say, but only after you give an issue deep and honest consideration. Just repeating what someone else has said is intellectual laziness. -Don’t resign yourself to that…

-Lawrence