Originally posted by seung ga faat The strong points of 7 Star are:
It teaches you that one attack is not enough
It always seeks to be several moves ahead.
Highly agreed form my experiences with 8 steps too.
We don’t do one strike deal, the combols comes form 3 to 5 moves a set. That is, after you opened the door, you will continue the combols of the choice that you made and see fit with or without a hit on the target when the first strike was excuted. So you don’t stop at one strike.
And the design of the combol moves have covered the opponent’s reacts several moves ahead, so you can just keep on going until the set was completed without worried of being countered, you can only be countered if you pulse.
I refuse to believe that there is no counter if you don’t stop. even if it was possible, what level do you have to be at to do it? I have a friend who trained kempo for a while, and he had such a combo - it was called “the seven swords” or something. It was a self defense type drill that consisted of seven techniques that he was supposed to be able to pull off before I could counter. He could not do it successfully…ever.
That did not mean that I was of a higher skill level than him, however, to have such a long string of techs and think that it cannot be countered isn’t too realistic, IMO
While I was typing this, I searched for 7 swords and found this:
Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]I refuse to believe that there is no counter if you don’t stop. even if it was possible, what level do you have to be at to do it? I have a friend who trained kempo for a while, and he had such a combo - it was called “the seven swords” or something. It was a self defense type drill that consisted of seven techniques that he was supposed to be able to pull off before I could counter. He could not do it successfully…ever.
That did not mean that I was of a higher skill level than him, however, to have such a long string of techs and think that it cannot be countered isn’t too realistic, IMO
While I was typing this, I searched for 7 swords and found this:
but this is a little different from the one he did. I think he was trying to modify it some. [/B]
The combos I known I have no problem to finish it to the end in my 12 years of applictional experiences. But as you have said, the opponent I have facing might not be higher level then me.
I have found 2 cases that can have my 8 step combols stuck or wore off, but never countered. These 2 cases are:1 the opponent’s foundation are very solid(or having power too much greader than the applier) and slow down the combo almost into a pulse. 2. the opponent knows what the applier is going to do before it started.
Other wise, I have seen no problem the counter concern.
Sounds out there PL .
I have all the respect in the world for PM, I think that it has some of the best options out there, but the stuff your saying sounds so unrealistic . I have to wounder if it were that simple why aren’t all PM guys at the top of the game?
Its not that PM can’t be countered; more that PM forms, drills, and techniques usually combine easily in anticipation of a counter. This is usually due to the fact that the techniques form a bridge to feel the opponents motion.
The most important to make a successful combo is the first opening chance. If you don’t have a good opening chance and force the combo to it any ways, then it will not be the case. I am not other styles of Mt people, I can 't represent them. I can only say form 8 step point of view. Well, you can’t even find any real 8 step out there in the game any ways.
Originally posted by Mantis9 Its not that PM can’t be countered; more that PM forms, drills, and techniques usually combine easily in anticipation of a counter. This is usually due to the fact that the techniques form a bridge to feel the opponents motion.
That makes sense. it intrigues me also. It sucks that the closest mantis school is 3 hours away. I wouldn’t mind seeing what it was about.
Mantis 9
I agree w/ your point of adaptability. It’s in the flow of techniques and how easly they adapt that the real genious of PM is found.
Its not that there are no counters but the counters are easly adpted too.
As far as seeing several moves ahead, I see that as a technique similar to that used when playing chess. You visualize several moves ahead based on the placement of pieces on the board to reach your objective. When the pieces change position you revisualize and change your strategy.
Of course, chess occurs at a much slower speed than combat, so you have time to think your way through each move … but even chess players train using set strategies (like “combos” in MA forms) to increase their odds. Each strategy can be countered by an experienced opponent; this is where adaptability comes in. It’s the same in MA.
you guys seem to practice “theoretical kung fu”. i think you need to ponder artd’s question- why don’t pm guys rule?
i think the whole thing about the any supposed superiortity of pm revolves around it’s late development same can be said for wing chun and probably(don’t know the history) of choy lee fut. it all boils down to effective cover of the center line and efficient attacks- one’s that work. the “new” styles cut out alot of the crap. read tao of jeet kune do- whether you are a traditionalist or not- it’s all there.
“theoretical kung fu”?? Everything is a theory untill its tested & used by a serious practitioner; Including your book.
The information therein is taught by traditional schools, its just that sometimes it is overlooked or under-practiced by the practitioners of the arts.
Fact is, they are all very awsome & which one is best is very hard to distuguish. This is a fact that I am quite proud of. The art that I chose was not of which one Was the “end-all-be all” system, Its the art that fits my personality, is traditional, and Works.
~BTL
The creative person is aways more important than the style.
we talk about pm like it is something out there on it’s own, it is the expression of people. Frist wong long, then & then & then all people. the more creative the more devlopment the less creative = the herd, what makes it is the persons expression of it. Any new and interesting mantis out there? I hope so
What other arts do you study besides mantis? Just wondering what your thoughts are on “learning”, not just dabbling, in different arts. As some people believe in learning many different arts, and some believe in staying with one. I personally like to read about as many differnent arts as I can, but prefer to study only one. Dont think Im smart enough to start combining different styles into effective fighting techniques.
To be proficient in your style you must have it all.
Form (Sun Fa=Body movement)
Stamina/Power/Strength (Gong Li)
Skill/Tech (Ji Shu)
It is not just about skill alone, otherwise as it has been said, all PM practioners would be on top!
Also the skill aspect is often lacking being preacticed at a more agressive level. Every (99%) of two person drills/applications/sparring require your forearms to be invovled. As a beginner, if you are not exiting class with bruised forearms you interaction is lacking agressiveness. If you lack agressiveness that is when you pick up bad habits and true understanding of body movement/form, etc. These examples are just a portion of an explanation.
Outcome, if you posess on one or two of the above attributes and you fight someone whom has all three, you more than likely will be defeated. If you just have skill and lack conditioning/stamina, you will have a hard time applying all those good tech and counters. Not saying it would be impossible if drilled regularly, but much more difficult.
Enough said for the moment, I think most can grasp what little I have wrote.
Message for Sifu seunggafaat:
My business is taking me to the DC more and more. I traveled there recently but failed to locate many school names in the yellow pages. I will be in DC July 23-26 and would like to hook up with you. Could you let me know your schedule at that time and contact numbers? You may email me at john@americantowel.com
Thanks.
Mantiskilla
I foucs on Mantis & Chen Taiji & wrestling
I do beleive that mantis is very well rounded and complete in it’s aprouch, when looking a different arts you will find that mantis has within it all the elements need to be well rounded.& has exceptionaly good traping and close range fighting (ecept gound fighting from the clintch, athough it may be out there I have not crossed it in my study) I do taiji for its smoothness and wrestling abilities, & bjj & western wrestling for ground elements.
As for the learning the part of your ? you need extented time w/ good teachers and I would sugest that you don’t jump around too much if you have a good one. although no one has it all .To develope you need a mentor,. that guides you and dose not wish to own you.
We all are MA ist, only from different times & expereancesThe idea of shareing and openness need to be apparent in your learning.
As a grandmaster of the Hao style Mei Hua Northern Mantis Taijee form, I should be happy to endorse your comments. However, in truth, there is no one form that is superior over all the forms in fighting. Regardless of the form studied, you need three ingrediants for fighting success: a good teacher, a dedicated student, and the internalization of the art form. I would be happy to elaborate further if anyone is interested, then EMail me.
Happy 4th of July to All!
Master Wang
Yea sounds right.
we have been talking alot about it being the person that makes the differenc in a fighter,but to the point of the thred. What do you think mantis as a style brings to the fight?
i think the main thing is the allusive nature of the style as a whole- by that i mean the use of angles in defense and attack. i see this as the advancement(new styles) i spoke of earlier. it seems to me that with the exception of the forms, the tao of jeet kune do that i mentioned earlier works hand in hand with mantis- covering the center line, opening the opponent’s, relying heavily on good footwork, creating openings with false attacks, right down to jkd’s stance.
I think so too. the JKd approch is a new mix that mantis got 400 years ago . I like to keep the freshness of the jdd approach and use the more developed mantis technique. w/ the time and development mantis is much more intergrated and seemless.
