Why doesn't TCMA include ground-grappling?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1139585]1. There are thousands of Kung Fu styles.

  1. Most of the Kung Fu we are aware of in the west is from Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan and is in no way representative of the mainland styles. Of these only a few have made a transission and the newer stuff is often heavily tainted with contempary wushu.
    [/quote]
    While this is true, it’s also true that most of the stuff on the mainland is even MORE heavily tainted with contemporary wushu. :wink:
  1. Almost ALL northern styles contain the elements ‘TIE SHEN KAO’ and ‘DI TANG GONG’ yet these two sets of technique are almost never talked about…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APqBOL3Sn04

…

TSK means leaning against your body and is a lot of standing up grappling technique and close striking with shoulders hips and head.

Not my understanding of the term. In Baji, TSK is not a category of throws; it’s a specific technique, the one shown in the first technique I linked above.

WHY no submission holds? Because these are designed for a ring and rules sports situation. Why lock when you can break? why go down when you should try to stand up?

Agree on the description but not about the reasoning. The VAST majority of submission holds are breaks. Pretty much everything that isn’t a choke is a break of some sort. It gets back to that thing about weapons and life and death fighting vs. ritual male combat.

The rest of your summary of ditang fighting (ditang just means “lying on the ground” btw) is spot on. Just annoys the hell out of me when people try to equate ditang fighting with submission wrestling.

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[QUOTE=omarthefish;1139587]While this is true, it’s also true that most of the stuff on the mainland is even MORE heavily tainted with contemporary wushu. :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APqBOL3Sn04

…
Not my understanding of the term. In Baji, TSK is not a category of throws; it’s a specific technique, the one shown in the first technique I linked above.

Agree on the description but not about the reasoning. The VAST majority of submission holds are breaks. Pretty much everything that isn’t a choke is a break of some sort. It gets back to that thing about weapons and life and death fighting vs. ritual male combat.

The rest of your summary of ditang fighting (ditang just means “lying on the ground” btw) is spot on. Just annoys the hell out of me when people try to equate ditang fighting with submission wrestling.[/QUOTE]

Probably right on the Wushu side, but a lot of ‘Ming jian de wushu’ is still practiced here and is largely unchanged. (like peasant wushu)

I can’t watch youtube (banned in China), but I know that alot of people only consider TieShenKaoDa which is the striking techniques of TSK. These are primarily hitting with the ass or hips, with the shoulder barge or head butt. But actually TSK is a term which includes all Qin na and Shuai jiao that is done from touching the body. SOme qin na is combined with shoulder or hip strikes for example. It also includes a large number of full arm and elbow strikes that are done with the blunt areas of the elbow and arm from very close range, kind of like a clothes line tech. but striking to the body and groin as well as accross throat. ALso a lot of elbows where the structure of resting your hand against your own body is employed. SInce TSK can only really be practiced against a partener and doesn’t appear much in form it has not made the transission to the west so well.

I realise that a lot of submission holds are intended as a possible break, but if they were used as such submission grappling bouts would probably be quite a different affair. (if you imagine you were using sudden shocking power during your lock attempts).

YOur right, Ditang Gong is literally ‘skill while lying on the floor’. And yes it is very different to submission grappling.

But i like to think that ground fighting isn’t missing from kung fu, just that the strategy of such is very different.

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Kung_Fu

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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1139600]Probably right on the Wushu side, but a lot of ‘Ming jian de wushu’ is still practiced here and is largely unchanged. (like peasant wushu)

I can’t watch youtube (banned in China), but I know that alot of people only consider TieShenKaoDa which is the striking techniques of TSK. These are primarily hitting with the ass or hips, with the shoulder barge or head butt. But actually TSK is a term which includes all Qin na and Shuai jiao that is done from touching the body. SOme qin na is combined with shoulder or hip strikes for example. It also includes a large number of full arm and elbow strikes that are done with the blunt areas of the elbow and arm from very close range, kind of like a clothes line tech. but striking to the body and groin as well as accross throat. ALso a lot of elbows where the structure of resting your hand against your own body is employed. SInce TSK can only really be practiced against a partener and doesn’t appear much in form it has not made the transission to the west so well.

I realise that a lot of submission holds are intended as a possible break, but if they were used as such submission grappling bouts would probably be quite a different affair. (if you imagine you were using sudden shocking power during your lock attempts).

YOur right, Ditang Gong is literally ‘skill while lying on the floor’. And yes it is very different to submission grappling.

But i like to think that ground fighting isn’t missing from kung fu, just that the strategy of such is very different.[/QUOTE]

Speaking as someone who HAS done grappling comps. Submissions are breaks you simply tap (hopefully) before the snap, otherwise you are off to see the attending medics, and most comps have a few breaks in them, in training you apply slow even pressure and give your partner time to tap, in comp you apply it as fast and as hard as you can the main reason you don’t see as many breaks in comps is people are good at defending and good at tapping

Fighting from the ground might not be missing, but ground fighting, in the sense of dealing with an opponent down on the ground with you trying to hit you or hurt you isn’t nearly as developed as it is in grappling, and I wager fighting from the ground against a standing opponent is also not as developed as it is in MMA, standing up under constant pressure from stomps leg and head kicks etc or sweeping a standing striking opponent is an art form MMA is very good at, im not sure I have seen similar skills a the same level in TCMA

The question really shouldn’t be was it or wasn’t it included in the past, but why don’t TCMA embrace and include it now? TCMA has a pragmatic past adopting in things it felt was good and missing so what happened to stop that process this century

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[QUOTE=Frost;1139603]
The question really shouldn’t be was it or wasn’t it included in the past, but why don’t TCMA embrace and include it now? TCMA has a pragmatic past adopting in things it felt was good and missing so what happened to stop that process this century[/QUOTE]

Well,
A. Some TCMA schools do embrace and include ground fighting. One teacher from my family has been studying No Gi JJ and BJJ for close to 15 years now. His school offers regular ground instruction, and whenever he’s in the area he’ll do a seminar at our school.
B. Prolonged ground fighting still isn’t a good option in true self-defense.

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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1139600]
I can’t watch youtube (banned in China)
[/quote]
Not a problem. I got it on a Chinese server as well:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/58019952-2099658804.html

Also, you should pm me your email and I will send you a tool you can use to watch youtube with. You don’t even have to install it. You can just stick it on a thumb drive and use it even at internet bars.

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[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1139605]Well,
A. Some [SIZE=“4”]TCMA[/SIZE] schools do embrace and include ground fighting. One teacher from my family has been studying [SIZE=“4”]No Gi JJ and BJJ [/SIZE]for close to 15 years now. His school offers regular ground instruction, and whenever he’s in the area he’ll do a seminar at our school.
B. Prolonged ground fighting still isn’t a good option in true self-defense.[/QUOTE]

That doesn’t count. :wink:

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[QUOTE=Frost;1139603]Speaking as someone who HAS done grappling comps. Submissions are breaks you simply tap (hopefully) before the snap, otherwise you are off to see the attending medics, and most comps have a few breaks in them, in training you apply slow even pressure and give your partner time to tap, in comp you apply it as fast and as hard as you can the main reason you dont see as many breaks in comps is people are good at defending and good at tapping

Fighting from the ground might not be missing, but ground fighting, in the sense of dealing with an opponent down on the ground with you trying to hit you or hurt you isnt nearly as developed as it is in grappling, and I wager fighting from the ground against a standing opponent is also not as developed as it is in MMA, standing up under constant pressure from stomps leg and head kicks etc or sweeping a standing striking opponent is an art form MMA is very good at, im not sure I have seen similar skills a the same level in TCMA

The question really shouldnt be was it or wasnt it included in the past, but why dont TCMA embrace and include it now? TCMA has a pragmatic past adopting in things it felt was good and missing so what happened to stop that process this century[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I’m sure you apply it fast and hard, but you surely don’t use full on joint smashing strikes which you might if your intent was to break it from the get go. You really don’t think you would use techniques a little differently if you were going for breaks instead of holds? a little?

Your right here, almost certainly all aspects of ground fighting are going to be at their best in MMA as it is usually a small part of Kung fu styles but a major part of MMA. And it is trained in full contact. ALthough sweeping a standing opponent is something Detang quan is pretty good at, but without video proof, who’s gonna believe.

I think certain aspects could be included, but the problem is it requires rather a lot of specialised training, and that would occupy a lot of class time. Most Kung Fu styles are pretty big as it is. If I ran a club that did all day everyday training then I would definately include a lot of grappling. But if people are just turning up once a week, then the grappling training would occupy more time than its worth. (to a kung fu guy)

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Fighting on the ground is a sport:confused:

Why would someone fight on the ground:confused:

As much as you want to, sometimes you don’t get to choose the battle ground. Sometimes you get taken down. Sometimes you slip. Sometimes you get clinched and dragged down… life deals out banana peels and water spills. Ever notice how many “Watch your step” signs you encounter in public?

Once down, you’re fighting for you survival no different than if on your feet. You need control of the position. You need control of the person… you find yourself down with an insecure person (say a TCMA with no ground game) they may reach for a weapon. Stand up grappling helps with this also.

Forget the past. Forget what books or older sifus said. Use your brain… you know it’s important to have skill in all ranges. To disregard a ground game is irresponsible, lazy, egotistical, etc., etc. There’s no excuses. If you don’t know, go humble yourself and learn it. You’ll have a blast, it’s fun to learn something and incorporate it right away.

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[QUOTE=omarthefish;1139614]Not a problem. I got it on a Chinese server as well:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/58019952-2099658804.html

Also, you should pm me your email and I will send you a tool you can use to watch youtube with. You don’t even have to install it. You can just stick it on a thumb drive and use it even at internet bars.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that,

Yeah that move would be part of TieShenKao.

THats sounds cool I’ll do that, cheers!

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To be honest joint smashing strikes aren’t the way grapplers do it, you isolate and control the joint, and then you apply pressure, so what changes is how fast you apply it not how you do the technique (to be honest in comps I applied it faster but with control, I never wanted to injury my opponent (well except one person) but then I was never the best competitor )

Ill believe sweeping a standing opponent is something Detang is good at it would make sense, the question should be is it enough to deal with the kind of opponent you face these days (who will likely have some grappling ability,)

As for the rest of you post I agree entirely, its all about time effort and perceived training priority, I never bash people for not doing grappling, if you are a stand up fighter and only have a few days a week to train grappling should be a small part of your training, I think a few weeks/months giving priority to basic positions and escapes would be useful, and then a little maintenance work every now and then to kep sharp would be useful

If you train kung fu for self defence I suspect your priorities might change depending on the opponents you might face, if you are more likely to face grappling opponents than say one wielding a sword maybe its time to drop certain aspects of training and evolve (as these arts did before) if you are training to maintain a style then that’s a personal choice

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Ray,
To me it’s not a question of needing to know what to do on the ground, it’s a question of what your goal is when you’re on the ground–do you try to wrap your legs around your opponent, or do you try to get out from underneath and get your feet back?
Both approaches can work…sometimes.
In my limited experience, ground fighting changes an awful lot depending on whether or not striking is allowed. Changes even more if it’s true no rules. Personally, I have no real interest in ground fighting without striking…just not my thing.

And as far as stand-up grappling goes, TCMA has that covered.

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I’m fairly satisfied with the reasons given. And I think we can all agree that staying on the ground for a long period of time in a real combat situation is a bad idea. BTW, these situations do occur. Someone was killed right in front of a grocery store where I grew up when a gang of teenage kids stomped his head in. This wasn’t a bad neighborhood either, it was as suburban as it gets.

So then I guess the question is, how much ground-grappling is enough? If this isn’t your primary thing, what are the basics for self-defense? Obviously if you encounter a ground-grappling specialist, it’s game over but we don’t all want to become BJJ masters for that ‘one day’ when we encounter the grappling specialist.

EO

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I would like to add that personally I feel striking in the clinch to be one of if not the most important aspect to grappling training. Working control through under/ over hooks and by plumming head and training striking while controlling your opponent is an essential part of self defense. Inside boxing, elbows, knees, sweeps, donkey and stomp kicks, and low roundhouse kicks with hip seperation are all very effective and are part of the grappling spectrum. Training pummeling is also very important to gain body locks and dominant positioning.

Also, the concepts of stance training, rooting, and sprawling keep you upright when a grappler is trying to take you down, very important these are trained.

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[QUOTE=Frost;1139627]I think a few weeks/months giving priority to basic positions and escapes would be useful, and then a little maintenance work every now and then to kep sharp would be useful
[/QUOTE]

Thats certainly essential, and I agree at least this much should probably be incorperated in some way.

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First off, ground fighting is NOT ground grappling, which is what the topic is about.
The GnP is present in TCMA, as are tricks to get off the floor, but the comprehensive curriculum of ground GRAPPLING is NOT and it is because of cultural reasons.
TCMA have just enough to “defend” while on the ground and just enough to get off the ground or attack someone on the ground.

Ground grappling in the japanese arts ALWAYS had weapons present, it was only in modern times that unarmed became the emphasis.
The Takenouguchi-ryu was reknown for its grappling wit short knives.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1139634]First off, ground fighting is NOT ground grappling, which is what the topic is about.
The GnP is present in TCMA, as are tricks to get off the floor, but the comprehensive curriculum of ground GRAPPLING is NOT and it is because of cultural reasons.
TCMA have just enough to “defend” while on the ground and just enough to get off the ground or attack someone on the ground.

Ground grappling in the japanese arts ALWAYS had weapons present, it was only in modern times that unarmed became the emphasis.
The Takenouguchi-ryu was reknown for its grappling wit short knives.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to disagree, but Chin-na/Kumna techniques can be applied on the ground. Many of these techniques can be considered grappling. I do agree that they are not “extensive”, but personally speaking, I have not seen all that there is in the TCMAs and I doubt that anyone in this forum has, so I am not even sure about that.

I guess as China keeps opening up, we will see more TCMA styles showing up, and then who knows…

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[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1139630] Obviously if you encounter a ground-grappling specialist, it’s game over …[/QUOTE]
Oh, I dunno…you could go the escrima route.

Not even joking. I had an epiphany a while back thinking about this issue. The lines we draw on escalation are arbitrary. Personally, I don’t think I could ever go the gun route and lets not even talk knives. I was at a rough spot a couple years back and actually got into a street fight that kind of scared me. There was a couple minutes scuffle with a guy bigger than me but not that skilled really. Still though, I had NO desire to fight him. Just wanted to get away. When I had a chance I picked up one of my rattan sticks I keep around for training. Should have seen that dude change his attitude.

Thinking about it later I realized, meh, I’m not afraid of the BJJ expert if I have one of my sticks handy. 6 months of BJJ may trump several years of kickboxing but 6 months of weapons fighting can trump several years of BJJ.

If you are really worried about self defense then you only need some very basic ground skills. Tim Cartmell has a great short term course called “Attack Proof” geared at exactly that minimum necessity. Then I’d say go the RSBD route. Some kind of mix of improvised weapons training combined with lots of scenario and psychological training. A little NLP or some Geof Thompson “fence” type stuff maybe. Really no need for the high level subtle skills that you get from years of in depth specialization. BJJ can certainly be a part of that but it’s a vastly smaller part of self defense when compared to the role it can play in ritual combat.

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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1139637]Sorry to disagree, but Chin-na/Kumna techniques can be applied on the ground. Many of these techniques can be considered grappling. I do agree that they are not “extensive”, but personally speaking, I have not seen all that there is in the TCMAs and I doubt that anyone in this forum has, so I am not even sure about that.

I guess as China keeps opening up, we will see more TCMA styles showing up, and then who knows…[/QUOTE]

I agree that chin-na CAN be applied on the ground, that is a given.
That is NOT the same thing as it BEING applied on the ground or TRAINED there.
Which is more typically was NOT.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1139634]

Ground grappling in the japanese arts ALWAYS had weapons present, it was only in modern times that unarmed became the emphasis.
The Takenouguchi-ryu was reknown for its grappling wit short knives.[/QUOTE]

But I bet those arts looked a lot different from todays groundwork, eh? Heck, just think about all that **** kneeling work.