Why doesnt good wing chun = good fighter?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

This has come up in several threads recently, but I’m sure it has been covered before.

I can appreciate that you dont have to have good wing chun to be a good fighter, but I am not convinced of the opposite.

Wing Chun is a way of fighting, is it not? Overcoming an opponent by use of force?
Some may argue with my definition, but I am not talking about tactics, misdirection, threat avoidance, or other self defence aspects. I’m talking about the barebones, the most basic situation, a fight, when a guy takes a swing at you.

If you are good at Wing Chun, then surely it means that you have skill in overcoming an opponent?

If you are unable to overcome an opponent, I would submit that you are not good at Wing Chun.

I cant think of anyone at my club who I would class as good at WC, but not able to handle themselves in a fight.

What do you guys think?

2

What’s a good fighter?

Someone who always wins?

3

Real world fight stress can knock out your super powers.

4

KFC

Your unrelenting wisdom slays me. :smiley:

5

I am merely a vessel of the great Don Knotts.

6

Actually it would be more correct to say WC relies on overcoming your opponent with technics, not force.

7

unless of cause your talking about The force :slight_smile:

8

The only reason I can think of that someone good at wingchun would not be a good fighter is if they are unable to think ‘outside of the box’. Don’t forget, chi sau is not fighting, and not everyone’s going to attack you the way a wcer would. Stating the obvious I know, but it’s too often forgotten I think.

9

Mat,
Depends on the scenario.
It basically boils down to how you would overcome fear and when pressed would you actually apply the techniques - there are many people of all arts who are skilled but when push came to shove could not apply their skill because they could not handle the stress. As WC guys we train - note train- to defend ourselves and to practice and improve our skill level but remember there’s always the chance that someone out there is meaner , more skilled and less fearful than we are.

Frank,

You could be skilled at WC but meet someone of equal skill (of another art) who is physically stronger, does this mean that your WC is not good? IMHO no, you just hit a better MA or fighter.

For me at least a good martial artist will beat an aggressor before it ever gets to being physical. Being in control is not a just a physical thing, it also needs a mental approach.

Just my opinion!

10

kfc

Don Knotts- is a great teacher since he was/is also a great student of human folly and arrogance.

Folks can thump their chests and brag on themselves and their teachers but when you open a box of Gump’s chocolates- you never know what you are going to get.

11

Good replies guys.

kungfu cowboy, how did you find out about my superpowers? Was it my special training mask and cape? I told my mum it would be a giveaway, but she makes me wear them anyway. :slight_smile:

jesper
>> Actually it would be more correct to say WC relies on overcoming your opponent with technics, not force. <<

I dont know, if we are arguing semantics (eg. as alpha dog says, what is a good fighter?), I would say to be strictly accurate that the intent is to overcome the opponent with concepts, via techniques, most if not all of which are a delivery system for a force. I agree, though, that WC does not attempt to overwhelm the opponent using brute force, but the appliance of force at an appropriate time and place. But, there is a time and place for brute force, too. :slight_smile:

dbulmer, I am not talking specifics here. Yeah, there is always somebody more aggressive, stronger, faster, harder, longer. :slight_smile:

I appreciate the points about real life stress. I guess that comes down to the way you train. As WSL said, it is good to bring your training up to the level where you sparring or chisao is a close as possible to the real thing. When you are at the level that this is practical, of course. Then you start to get the shoving, the kicks, the headbutts, knees, hooks, elbows, trips, the oxygen deprivation, the adrenaline etc.

I would think of WC as a complete fighting system. So a skilled WC practioner should have the ability to handle the adrenaline dump and stress. By this definition, being good at WC would imply a related skill in real fighting too.

Or am I just redefining what WC is, so it fits my argument?

12

Re: kfc

Originally posted by yuanfen
Don Knotts- is a great teacher since he was/is also a great student of human folly and arrogance.

Now that you mention it, even the “The Ghost and Mr. Chicken” sported some lessons relevant to this thread.

Don Knotts, Red Skelton, KFC - among wise men, in my book. Or is it wise guys?

Perhaps I’m a latent Daoist. :stuck_out_tongue:

  • kj
13

kj

Good deep belly laughs helps in the midst of the absurd.

14

kj

One has to be able to laugh at Daoists. Supposedly the monkey king and a companion were passing byan outhouse- one remarked to the other- must be a daoist chamber of metabolic transformation!!

15

KFC,
In essence I agree with you. The only thing is that in WC we train, we spar and by and large we are not fighting - our WC classes are about achieving skill and for many of us going into work the next day without injury is important.

I agree with you about knees, elbows etc but it’s still not fighting.
Some people have yet to learn about adrenaline dump/ impaired vision etc and I don’t claim to have experienced it myself for that matter but how do you train for that - the anxiety, trembling knees, dry throat (ok a beer is preferable :slight_smile: ) . You can try to simulate it but it’s not quite the same thing. It’s the difference between training and real life.

For me WC implies not just fighting skill it’s about being wise enough to know when to fight or flee. Real fighting skill is what we train to do when faced with no other alternative.

My own teacher has said that when the genie comes out of the bottle it’s pretty devastating - I agree about good WC skill being good fighting skill - it’s just I think we need to get a handle on what we train and what we might actually be forced to do.

Some people would not be able to elbow someone in the face (I have no problem with that personally) but I know some people whose skill level is way beyond mine but who would struggle in a real situation. Of course, I have no way of knowing this for sure but it’s a feeling I get when sparring.

16

Hello,
I have been practicing Wing Tzun for 9 months now, and I think it’s one of the most usefull MA one could practice and use in real life to defend himself. Everything I learned so far is not something like, when he does that, you do this, my sifu always stresses ‘when he does that .. you’re actually already to late’. So the purpous is as soon as you know for sure something is gonne happen, and you can’t run away, and he is about to make his move, right there you should end it. Wing Tzun definatelly works in sparring, if it works in real life depends on only one thing if you ask me : Will you freeze or not ?

*note : I don’t mean when he looks suspicious you should smack him silly :slight_smile: I mean when you see something like a shoulder moving, showing you that there’s an upcomming punch, then hit him effectivelly, and then, just run :slight_smile:

17

Re: Why doesnt good wing chun = good fighter?

Three things.

  1. Fighters mindset or mentality may be lacking.
  2. Conditioning or lack thereof can play a part.
  3. Lack of real fighting or competition experience.

If you have great skill but step into the ring for the first time with a veteran Muay Thai guy or boxer in front of a large crowd, the situation could go awry. The technically skilled person, may find they go thru an adrenal dump, and have issues with staying focused given the crowd and attention.

If you don’t have the experience of being in a streetfight, then I would guess that there are going to be all sorts of emotional and physical responses going off like alarm bells.

If you don’t have the conditioning and haven’t weathered an onslaught of attacks from someone commited to really hurting you, who knows how it may turn out?

Originally posted by Frank Exchange
[B]This has come up in several threads recently, but I’m sure it has been covered before.

I can appreciate that you dont have to have good wing chun to be a good fighter, but I am not convinced of the opposite.

Wing Chun is a way of fighting, is it not? Overcoming an opponent by use of force?
Some may argue with my definition, but I am not talking about tactics, misdirection, threat avoidance, or other self defence aspects. I’m talking about the barebones, the most basic situation, a fight, when a guy takes a swing at you.

If you are good at Wing Chun, then surely it means that you have skill in overcoming an opponent?

If you are unable to overcome an opponent, I would submit that you are not good at Wing Chun.

I cant think of anyone at my club who I would class as good at WC, but not able to handle themselves in a fight.

What do you guys think? [/B]

18

Re: kj

Originally posted by yuanfen
One has to be able to laugh at Daoists. Supposedly the monkey king and a companion were passing byan outhouse- one remarked to the other- must be a daoist chamber of metabolic transformation!!

And the Daoist laughs also, no? :slight_smile:

  • kj
19

to not or not to not

hey planet…i agree 100%…in addition…one can be good at chi sao…thats in the context of something where both people are “playing ball” within certain peremiters…but thats like saying im good at chess so i can fight..no…you are good in the context of the chess board with chess rules…so the “game” of fighting has no rules…and anyone you fight isnt going to be as willing as a training partner obviously… many wc’ers can roll in the look sao platform but have no idea how and when to make bridge contact with a unwilling opponent..which is a crittle part of the fight in my opinion..before i have bridge contact anything can happen…after bridge contact my opponents options become extremly limited (unless they know wc:D )
and everything you listed is crittle..the physiological responce in the body
to adrenalin can be rather “distracting” if one isnt used to it…if your heart rate gets high enough you loose fine motor control funtion…that is not good..lol

so someone imo can be good at wing chun in the context of wing chun, in the structure of wing chun ,but this doesnt equate to a good fighter…that requires extra training or natural attributes and abilities.

20

It is common in all martial arts that someone with great apparent skills can’t handle himself…(not to mention a real opponent!) in a real fight.
You have to be like a ferocious beast with no mercy to really fight! A ferocious beast with self-control and technique. Many have technique but not everybody have the kind of fighting attitude to back skill and technique. It is very different from the ring attitude where you are still protected by rules and a referee to make sure nobody is going to get seriously hurt.The ones who can be very agressive without losing their clear head or temper are the ones who can defend themselves the more effectively.