Jaeson’s post was on the money. Most MMA or NHB fighters aren’t doing pure or conventional fighting arts. They are cross training much like what Bruce Lee was doing and teaching nearly 40 years ago. Even BBJ, isn’t pure jiu jitsu; in NHB fights they do more than BJJ, then have used many other different tactics from other fighting arts to bridge their game which is the ground. In reality, they too have crossed trained as well.
Wing Chun kung fu has to play its own game to work and not play the game of someone elses. I have heard from several experts what wing chun should do in these kind of matches, but I can’t hope to recall what Bruce Lee have said about partial perception about seeing what is the now? All martial artists say many things about what they will do, but I must hold my doubts until they have proven their cases. I have the the greatest respect for martial artists who go and lay down the skills for the general public. No matter what style.
I am sure WC as well as many styles have learned from NHB matches is more dynamic than what they have been taught.
Jaeson’s post was on the money. Most MMA or NHB fighters aren’t doing pure or conventional fighting arts. They are cross training much like what Bruce Lee was doing and teaching nearly 40 years ago. Even BBJ, isn’t pure jiu jitsu; in NHB fights they do more than BJJ, then have used many other different tactics from other fighting arts to bridge their game which is the ground. In reality, they too have crossed trained as well.
Wing Chun kung fu has to play its own game to work and not play the game of someone elses. I have heard from several experts what wing chun should do in these kind of matches, but I can’t hope to recall what Bruce Lee have said about partial perception about seeing what is the now? All martial artists say many things about what they will do, but I must hold my doubts until they have proven their cases. I have the the greatest respect for martial artists who go and lay down the skills for the general public. No matter what style.
I am sure WC as well as many styles have learned from NHB matches is more dynamic than what they have been taught.
Jaeson’s post was on the money. Most MMA or NHB fighters aren’t doing pure or conventional fighting arts. They are cross training much like what Bruce Lee was doing and teaching nearly 40 years ago. Even BBJ, isn’t pure jiu jitsu; in NHB fights they do more than BJJ, then have used many other different tactics from other fighting arts to bridge their game which is the ground. In reality, they too have crossed trained as well.
Wing Chun kung fu has to play its own game to work and not play the game of someone elses. I have heard from several experts what wing chun should do in these kind of matches, but I can’t hope to recall what Bruce Lee have said about partial perception about seeing what is the now? All martial artists say many things about what they will do, but I must hold my doubts until they have proven their cases. I have the the greatest respect for martial artists who go and lay down the skills for the general public. No matter what style.
I am sure WC as well as many styles have learned from NHB matches is more dynamic than what they have been taught.
Wondering what you think the ‘flaws’ are I am aware of no ‘flaws’ in the system. I have yet to see anyone doing real Wing Chun in any of these events.
I don’t think “flaw” is the right word. That would indicate that a mistake was made in it’s creation. What we do see is a “weakness” and that is WCK’s weakness against wrestlers and on the ground. Unless you live in a fantasy world this is the reality of the system and as such we should realize it rather than ignore it since one day it may be we pay with our lives in assuming such “superiority”.
I doubt you will ever see anyone doing “real” WCK in the ring (at least Yip Man WCK I don’t know about the others) because it’s not made for competition and squaring off with a fighter who trains to compete in NHB would be suicide.
I don’t think “flaw” is the right word. That would indicate that a mistake was made in it’s creation. What we do see is a “weakness” and that is WCK’s weakness against wrestlers and on the ground. Unless you live in a fantasy world this is the reality of the system and as such we should realize it rather than ignore it since one day it may be we pay with our lives in assuming such “superiority”.
I doubt you will ever see anyone doing “real” WCK in the ring (at least Yip Man WCK I don’t know about the others) because it’s not made for competition and squaring off with a fighter who trains to compete in NHB would be suicide.
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Sorry, but I couldn’t disagree more.
Wing Chun is quite capable of dealing with a grappler. The Wing Chun fighter must join with his opponent’s living energy be him a kicker or grappler. There is nothing magical about what grapplers do. They are attempting to issue energy just as we do, except they are working with the disadvantage of having to be closer and make more contact while leaving their Centerline wide open. The Wing Chun man who is well trained can issue energy and control balance at a greater distance and with greater dexterity than can the grappler - period.
Now anyone can get surprised in the street and go down. I am not suggesting that Wing Chun can be used on the ground, although the concepts certainly could be. I am researching this now and I defer to my SiHing on that. If your stuck on your back then perhaps some BJJ would be of use. My late Sifu used to say, “If you fall down - better get up quick.” But make no mistake - a good Wing Chun man is just as good if not better at controlling balance and stealing it as are any grapplers.
You state that Wing Chun is not intended for competing, in this I agree. However it is intended for combat and nothing the present group of fighters in these contests measures up with a well trained set of Wing Chun skills as far a stand up fighting goes. 99% of these fighters have no hands are clearly afraid to be in striking range, and have no ‘trapping range’ experience whatsoever. This is why time and time again you will see some desperate long range, reaching hand attacks followed by a quick “oh my god” change to rolling around on the ground (submission).
Just posted this in another thread but it applies here too.
Shaolin - that video did not show a good example of a shoot. Sorry but that’s what you get when you demonstrate with your students. They cannot “imitate” what a wrestler does. Nevertheless I do think that WC has some good, clever responses to the shoot.
Shaolin, I think you are quite mistaken. You want sensitivity, grappling does it quite well. Oh, I know you have sensitivity, but I know some of the WC guys on here call grappling “full body chi sao.” Subtle weight shifts, response to movement, understanding the way the body moves and pressure, knowing when to close space and create space are all not just part of, but the primary attributes trained by grappling.
The thing you showed is a rotten example of what even a DECENT grappler would do to enter. It’s the equivalent of throwing a drunken roundhouse punch and countering it. Find a real grappler and play for awhile. You probably have some things to surprise him with as well.
Originally posted by Merryprankster Subtle weight shifts, response to movement, understanding the way the body moves and pressure, knowing when to close space and create space are all not just part of, but the primary attributes trained by grappling.
As it is with Wing Chun, with one addition - use and study of the Centerline.
Wondering, have you studied Wing Chun?
Originally posted by Merryprankster The thing you showed is a rotten example of what even a DECENT grappler would do to enter. It’s the equivalent of throwing a drunken roundhouse punch and countering it. Find a real grappler and play for awhile. You probably have some things to surprise him with as well.
Oh c’mon guys, the clip was not intended to be the be all end all of ‘shoot demonstration,’ just an example.
I dont think this issue will be solved on the “technique” level. I think that it is mainly a training issue. On top of all that Martial Artist can be surprisingly ignorant when it comes to hand to hand combat sometimes. They often fall into the trap of believing that the way they train is the way most fights will go down. Look at the TMA guys who do MMA tournemants and such. These guys go in and then get tackled and beaten to a pulp. I say if you want to learn to use your art to fight them get together with some of them and fight. Train with them and see what happens. WC has just as many answers to the problems of grappling as any art needs to, its just a lack of understanding on wingchun thet gets most people in trouble.
I say if you seriously think its the art you are a fool. Most martial arts have been around for a while and have the answers they need to be effective against ANYONE. The failing is 99.9% of the time in the practitioner.
Wing Chun is quite capable of dealing with a grappler. The Wing Chun fighter must join with his opponent’s living energy be him a kicker or grappler. There is nothing magical about what grapplers do. They are attempting to issue energy just as we do, except they are working with the disadvantage of having to be closer and make more contact while leaving their Centerline wide open. The Wing Chun man who is well trained can issue energy and control balance at a greater distance and with greater dexterity than can the grappler - period.
Man, you try that theory out on Merryprankster and let us know how it goes. I do both WCK and grappling and I personally have taken WCK people to the ground who think like you do and who had more experience than you. Heck a couple of them were even in the same lineage as you. So I’m sure someone who trains grappling intensly everyday would have no problems breaking your horse and dropping you on your head. And what if you fall? How are you going to get back up? Or fight from your back? I’d have my knee on your diaphram and be pounding your face. Eye gouges? Groin shots? Everyone knows those, too and if you go for my eyes or groin while I’m on top of you I’m going to hit you even harder or tear your shoulder out of socket.
All the theories and talking don’t mean anything unless they work in the real world.
Side note–has anybody here done any pummelling? I do a lot of it–it’s a standard wrestling drill. At my one and only MMA fight, a WC guy was preparing in his corner of the prep room, and they were all very curious about pummelling. They fathomed IMMEDIATELY that it was for inside control (control of the centerline.) Once I drew the analogy to their Chi Sao drill, you should have seen the light go on. Wonderful when people of different styles can speak the same language!
Red- actually, what most styles get very good at is countering and attacking their OWN style, with little bits that will theoretically be useful against other types of attacks. I’ve yet to see a strict high school wrestler with great punch defense, but they sprawl pretty good.
I think we all need to wake up to the reality that you should go to something for its specialty. WC has some great things going for it, I’m sure, but I’m betting committed grappling defense/attacks ain’t one of them. I know that straight BJJ doesn’t teach you how to punch and kick too well!
I don’t understand what is so hard about that particular concept. It doesn’t MEAN that WC sucks–it doesn’t even mean there is a hole in the training. It means that somewhere else, somebody has a more developed understanding of a concept because they do it more often.
I don’t know alot about grappling! A friend of mine took jujitsu, and aikido for over 10 yrs. Said they are good, but would not use them on the street. He also took wing chun for 5 yrs, and said it is all he will use against an attacker or multiple attackers. Not that he trys not to use the other styles, he just reacts with wing chun, he said its more straight to the point, and easier to deal with more than one attacker, because you are not grappled onto the legs of another while getting a beat down from whoever else is attacking you. I personally cannot comment on grappling. All I have really seen on it has been on UFC. Looks very good, but also looks like it requires alot of brute strength. If I amm 160lbs, could I deal with a fellow grappler of 260lbs? hmmmmm
Why does your friend think WCK is better against multiple attackers? Even top rate guys (in any art) can barely handle more than one person so why would he think a hobbyist could beat more than one attacker?
Also, at least for Brazilian JuJitsu size is not that important. I’ve seen a 5’5" 130lbs blue belt hand a 6"4" 250lbs wrestler his a$$. In fact in reality I’d say grappling is more of an equalizer for the little guy than just about any striking art.
That is good to know! I kind of wondered how a smaller guy would measure up in grappling. I think his grappling style was japanese. I don’t personally know the diff.
Multiple attackers, hmmm… all depends on the fighter and attackers of course. Three of my fellow wing chun students, who had all practiced for over two yrs, not that that is great or anything, but not bad. They were all hardcore wing chun practitioners (pretty good too). They thought it would be funny to jump our Sifu when he was not expecting it, just to see how good he would be reacting to a surprise attack from more than one person. I personally watched Sifu hand all three of them their ass in a few seconds. Apparently Sifu likes that! Good response training!
Grappling has its uses, and does not mean you close and stay there. For instance, there’s the clinch, push off, and combos to the head. Or sprawl and knee. Or sprawl and hook to the head. Or throw and run like hell.
I would also agree that grappling is an amazing equalizer–a 280 lbs guy can absorb more punishment than a 140 lbs guy–case closed–do you REALLY think that 140 lb guy is going to knock out his opponent or take out his knee (Ever seen the legs on a 280 lb 6’ 7" guy? YEESH!)–he might. But I’m betting not. On the other hand, a choke works on everybody, and strength and size will not protect you if you don’t know how to stay out of the choke.
I don’t advocate rolling around on the street. I do advocate knowing how to reverse positions and get up. Grappling training is very very good for this. For those that tell me WC has this, WC has it like BJJ kicks and punches.
If by dynamic one means:
