Why does Black Flag history keep changing?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Robert

I am from NYC. I even learned briefly from Henry and even had friends learn from Henry

so what are your thoughts robert, on the similarities between yip man and buddha hand, identical???

I think some Fut Sao people are absolutely skilled,

you are correct, i think fut sao students did quite well in the wong fei hung chi sao competition the past few years.

Of course, naive fools will believe any story, no matter how exaggerated

there is no need to start name calling robert,didn’t you post some ideas last year about the wing chun community needing to come together and put all the childish actions and words to rest?

42

[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;936364]When we are ready we will come forth,but on our time no one else’s. Yes,I know about the stories,again forget the stories look at the man’s skill and what he had to offer.When you look at that the rest does not matter.[/QUOTE]

The issue is the intent behind the stories.

All martial arts are made up. If someone comes forth and says, “I created this from my training…” and not made up some great big nonsense story, it could be accepted.

43

[QUOTE=eomonroe00;936397][I]so what are your thoughts robert, on the similarities between yip man and buddha hand, identical???

[you are correct, i think fut sao students did quite well in the wong fei hung chi sao competition the past few years.

Of course, naive fools will believe any story, no matter how exaggerated

there is no need to start name calling robert,didn’t you post some ideas last year about the wing chun community needing to come together and put all the childish actions and words to rest?[/QUOTE]

eom,

BH and Yip Man are not the same now.

“Naive” as in believing tall tales, “fools” as in being fooled. Not name calling. I apologize if you are offended. I’ll restate, "Being fooled by tall tales and spins on truth, some people will be deceived, no matter how exaggerated, someone will buy the nonsense.

44

[QUOTE=Eric_H;936384]Yeah, I enjoy your made-up story about everything coming from white crane. Even though some branches of WC existed before your white crane system, Wong Wa Bo anyone?
[/QUOTE]

for once hendrik said something that i agree with.

i dont know for sure but i hav also heard that WC had influence in its origins from Fukkien White Crane. It also had influence from Emei MAs such as Tai Chi too.

45

[QUOTE=Pacman;936482]for once hendrik said something that i agree with.

i dont know for sure but i hav also heard that WC had influence in its origins from Fukkien White Crane. It also had influence from Emei MAs such as Tai Chi too.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Eric_H View Post
Yeah, I enjoy your made-up story about everything coming from white crane. Even though some branches of WC existed before your white crane system, Wong Wa Bo anyone?

My made up story? hahaha

It is a fact that White crane of Fujian started since mid 1600 and traceable solidly and related to the Tien Dei Wu or Hung Mun goes as far as Taiwan and South East Asia.

Why dont you show your WC existed before mid 1600 with the same trace able solid track record from both the Qing Side and the Han side ?

Until you got that. who made up story?

46

[QUOTE=eomonroe00;936295]That story is marketing, an attempt to sell Black Flag to the gullible using “history” as some sort of proof or bona fide of its “power”-t niehoff

how far will that get you?
eventually you have to show the power, and show you can teach it,[/QUOTE]

How far will that get you? It will make you money – and that’s the whole point. As far as teaching it goes, if you teach it as a TCMA, then it really doesn’t matter since it is mostly fantasy anyway.

47

[QUOTE=eomonroe00;936397]
i think fut sao students did quite well in the wong fei hung chi sao competition the past few years.
[/QUOTE]

Oh my, doing well in a chi sao competition – that really proves exactly what? Since chi sao is a completely artificial and unrealistic exercise, and does not in any way demonstrate fighting skill (that ability to use your WCK skills in fighting), what does doing well in a chi sao competiton demonstrate? Absolutely nothing, other than they can perform a drill.

48

Hendrik,

Why should I, or anyone else accept your word on the origins of wing chun or for that matter white crane? Your understanding of timelines and dates are way off on the black/red/green and all the other flag societies. And that’s all published government info on the web!

Your dates on the white crane, Tien Dei Wu or Hung Mun are probably off by a lot too!

You’re totally unreliable. Except to offer pseudo-zen gibberish nonsense.

Are you trying to re-write history like the Black flag people?

49

[QUOTE=Rolf;936884]Hendrik,

Why should I, or anyone else accept your word on the origins of wing chun or for that matter white crane?

Your understanding of timelines and dates are way off on the black/red/green and all the other flag societies.

And thats all published government info on the web!

Your dates on the white crane, Tien Dei Wu or Hung Mun are probably off by a lot too!

Youre totally unreliable. Except to offer pseudo-zen gibberish nonsense.

Are you trying to re-write history like the Black flag people?[/QUOTE]

I have never asked you to accept anything I said.

Whatever the facts are those are the facts, no one can change it.

You can make any accusation on me, however, those doesnt change a thing on what is the facts.

and what is your TRUTH? Do you have any evidence to support your Truth?

50

Hendrik,

What, no pseudo-zen/haiku masterpiece to explain the world through white crane eyes?

You have disappointed all of us.

51

[QUOTE=Rolf;936884]Hendrik,

Why should I, or anyone else accept your word on the origins of wing chun or for that matter white crane? Your understanding of timelines and dates are way off on the black/red/green and all the other flag societies. And that’s all published government info on the web!

Your dates on the white crane, Tien Dei Wu or Hung Mun are probably off by a lot too!

You’re totally unreliable. Except to offer pseudo-zen gibberish nonsense.

Are you trying to re-write history like the Black flag people?[/QUOTE]

As far as I know, Hendrik has done more than ANYONE in investigating WCK history. And while I don’t necessarily agree with all his conclusions, his research is worthy of consideration.

I don’t think we can ever know what happened prior to the WCK-moving-off-the-Red-Boat era. What we do know is that WCK shares very many common elements of southern fist. Whether those elements come from white crane (which has these elements) or whether those elements came from various southern fist, I don’t think we’ll ever know.

Hendriks ideas are at least plausible. Most of the RECENT origin myths are not.

On a side note, the chinese government is NOT a very reliable source of martial history. Consider how it has promoted the Shaolin myth.

52

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;936937]As far as I know, Hendrik has done more than ANYONE in investigating WCK history. And while I don’t necessarily agree with all his conclusions, his research is worthy of consideration.

I don’t think we can ever know what happened prior to the WCK-moving-off-the-Red-Boat era. What we do know is that WCK shares very many common elements of southern fist. Whether those elements come from white crane (which has these elements) or whether those elements came from various southern fist, I don’t think we’ll ever know.

Hendriks ideas are at least plausible. Most of the RECENT origin myths are not.

On a side note, the chinese government is NOT a very reliable source of martial history. Consider how it has promoted the Shaolin myth.[/QUOTE]

I don’t entirely trust mainland China’s history or record of truth. Many of the Wushu books’ history can be questionable.

I agree with Hendrik’s research as being plausible. I do believe WCK has origins in Fujian White Crane and the oral history of WCK is very similar to White Crane - and has possible explanations of the White Crane Daoist who taught at the White Crane cave (“Ng Mui” in WCK history), and the creation of the White Crane Weng Chun system.

Much of the history of White Crane is written and documented in their Quan Pu (Fist Registers) and are actual written records tied with the end of the Ming Dynasty, the creation of the Tian Di Hui and Hong Men, and coincide with actual historical events. Hendrik’s Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao history is also completely documented and passed on through the Cao family for many generations.

This is completely in Chinese, but at least there are written verification. Many systems claiming to be original or first have no documentation at all. In the West, we value written documentation more than oral tradition.

This speaks volumes.

53

[QUOTE=chusauli;937128] Many systems claiming to be original or first have no documentation at all. In the West, we value written documentation more than oral tradition.

.[/QUOTE]

In China, Written evident is also a must, Look at the Chan lineage transmission record.

So, I dont take those made up His-story.

Dont let those story maker fool you. In China, Chuan Chen or Transmission is extremely big thing. Those with Chuan Chen have written evidents.

such as this one

http://www.emeiqigong.us/lineage/lineage/ju-zan.html

http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/lineage.html

No BS jumping around missing hundred of years and NO BS story making every few years.

54

[QUOTE=Rolf;936934]Hendrik,

What, no pseudo-zen/haiku masterpiece to explain the world through white crane eyes?

You have disappointed all of us.[/QUOTE]

other then words, what do you have?

Show us who are you, your lineage in WCK, and your Chan lineage with trace able written record. Until then, just words.

and Who cares if you are disappointed. I dont.

55

I find it interesting how Hendrik so often references Hung Mun triads and secret societies like the Tin Dei Wui these days.

When for so long he completely disagreed with any relationship between WC and the Secret Societies at all.

Same for you Robert. In fact there are a quite few posts here and an article even where you disputed the relationship yourself.

No big deal. People’s understandings grow (mine included).

In regards to history, if one is left with scrambled eggs, how could they ever know about the yolk and the white ever being separate.

This is a byproduct of China’s cultural revolution sorry to say.

Just don’t be surprize when Hendrik starts talking about the Ming Military’s involvement with TCMA history and so forth. Oh that’s right… he already has. :wink:

56

I find it interesting how Hendrik so often references Hung Mun triads and secret societies like the Tin Dei Wui these days.

since the WCML era, or Decade ago, Yik Kam lineage has shared its the Red Boat Hung Mun/Taiping uprising identity code. which can be verified from Canton to Shai Hai To Nanjing and CLF.

Do you have one which is verify able from multiple sources?

Show us?

When for so long he completely disagreed with any relationship between WC and the Secret Societies at all.

Dont twisting words,

Read my posts since WCML time,

There is a big big big different between

the Creation of the SLT – The fusion of White Crane of Fujian with Emei 12 Zhuang

and

WCK OPERA MEMEBERS joining the Hung Mun/Taiping uprising lead by LEE Man Mau.

Get that straight?

57

[QUOTE=Hendrik;937155]since the WCML era, or Decade ago, Yik Kam lineage has shared its the Red Boat Hung Mun/Taiping uprising identity code. which can be verified from Canton to Shai Hai To Nanjing and CLF.
[/QUOTE]

WCML era??? HA HA HA That is a riot!! Thanks H. that was really a good one. Haven’t laughed that hard in awhile.

But what does this have to say about YOU and the recent change in direction of your posts? This was never the focus of what you post about and you know it.

Obviously, you only recently came to understand the importance and significance of this historical connection. Same with the Military connection!

PS… Are you now going to claim that you are an authority on the Hung Mun and Secret Societies too?? What a joke.

Don’t worry, they’ll be more history released soon.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;937155]
There is a big big big different between the Creation of the SLT – The fusion of White Crane of Fujian with Emei 12 Zhuang

and

WCK OPERA MEMEBERS joining the Hung Mun/Taiping uprising lead by LEE Man Mau.

Get that straight?

[/QUOTE]

You are right. There is a big difference between Yik Kam’s understanding/version of SLT, and that of the WCK Opera Member’s.

And PSS…

Let’s put things into perspective Hendrick. Lee Man Mau was only one of many leaders of the uprisings.

Again, you are trying to pass off one piece of the puzzle as the whole picture.

58

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;936493]Oh my, doing well in a chi sao competition – that really proves exactly what? Since chi sao is a completely artificial and unrealistic exercise, and does not in any way demonstrate fighting skill (that ability to use your WCK skills in fighting), what does doing well in a chi sao competiton demonstrate? Absolutely nothing, other than they can perform a drill.[/QUOTE]

Do you actually practice Chi Sau?

59

[QUOTE=duende;937147]I find it interesting how Hendrik so often references Hung Mun triads and secret societies like the Tin Dei Wui these days.

When for so long he completely disagreed with any relationship between WC and the Secret Societies at all.

Same for you Robert. In fact there are a quite few posts here and an article even where you disputed the relationship yourself.

No big deal. People’s understandings grow (mine included).

In regards to history, if one is left with scrambled eggs, how could they ever know about the yolk and the white ever being separate.

This is a byproduct of China’s cultural revolution sorry to say.

Just don’t be surprize when Hendrik starts talking about the Ming Military’s involvement with TCMA history and so forth. Oh that’s right… he already has. ;)[/QUOTE]

Duende,

Thank you for bringing this up. I want to clarify. I have long knew about the relationship between the Tian Di Hui, Hong Men and WCK and White Crane - I even documented this in my book, “Complete Wing Chun”.

I say there is little relationship between WCK and the gangsters of today’s criminal society known as Triads, aka “Hung Mun” who proliferate extortion, prostitution, smuggling, and other illicit underground activities. Many times my message got distorted due to emotional issues of various posters. We have wasted a decade arguing and talking past each other and I am happy we can have this conversation today.

My position has not changed, and to make it very clear:

WCK is not related to the gangsters, nor have any relationship to those types of illegal activities.

We should not condone these illegal activities as it sends the wrong message to the younger generation that we take the law into our hands and menace society with fists and weapons.

It was very simple, all along.

Best regards,

60

Ok Robert, thanks for the clarification on your position.

Of course, no one here is condoning this kind of behavior you mentioned in regards to gangsters etc.

However, my point is, like it or not… the Triads of today developed out of the secret societies of yesterday. And in both regards there exists still, much that is not publicly documented.