Why do you think TST is good?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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I’d like to start this topic on why you guys think Tsui Seung Tin is good. This is not a flame against the man. I have high respects for him and he is a really nice and honest person. I would just like to experiment here because the way he does wing chun tends to break the typical wc rules.

  1. Elbows in
  2. Low Stance

They do not hold their elbows at the center. They prefer the elbows out near the waist. They feel that having the elbow at the center tenses the chest/shoulder area.

When doing the hand sets, their “other” hand is not pulled all way the way back but rather just held up near the chest. They feel that if you pull your hand all the way back you are too tense.
Other methods say that if you pull the hand (in a fist) all the way back, then you are stretching and loosing that muscle. (deltoid?)

Their stance is really high to a point where there is hardly any physical pain on the legs or knees. Their rolling in chi sau is at a fast pace. There are no little 1 second pauses…looks sloopy and looks like they are not really listening,feeling with their hands.

This is what a typical person would observe and say about the TST method.
BUT once they start to learn their way, they will understand why they do things the way they do.

Again, I love the guy and he’s very skilled. I would just like to hear why you think he’s good… reasons further than from others, even your sifu, have told you.

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Urban Tea,

Interesting post. Just wondered what had you based your observations on - the man himself or his students/student’s students?

I ask this because I saw a second generation student of TST doing his SLT the way you described.

SLC

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They do not hold their elbows at the center. They prefer the elbows out near the waist. They feel that having the elbow at the center tenses the chest/shoulder area.

Firstly, who is ‘they’? Secondly, where are you getting your information from?

When doing the hand sets, their “other” hand is not pulled all way the way back but rather just held up near the chest. They feel that if you pull your hand all the way back you are too tense.

News to me. Actually, let me rephrase - what a load of hogswash. Again I wonder where you’re getting your information from? Yes, it would be helpful if you could name names.

Their stance is really high to a point where there is hardly any physical pain on the legs or knees. Their rolling in chi sau is at a fast pace. There are no little 1 second pauses…looks sloopy and looks like they are not really listening,feeling with their hands.

Remind me again why you’re supposed to be feeling physical pain in your knees in your stance? Your weight is supposed to be on your legs, not your knees. Speed when rolling in chi sao will vary on whatever time of day you happen to look at someone. I’m quite sure that not everyone out there rolls at a constant pace at all times? What 1 second pauses are you talking about? And finally, looks are deceiving - but since you mentioned looks, got some links to photos or videos you’re referring to?

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a query

  1. What do you define as a high and low stance?

  2. I’ve been reading people mention that they have their knees <= 1.5 fist distances - what’s the reason behind this?

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Originally posted by urban tea
I’d like to start this topic on why you guys think Tsui Seung Tin is good.
Will there be a topic on why we think he’s bad? Just asking…

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better topic- Why you,meaning anyone on this forum ,think you are qualified to judge TST’s wing chun.

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TST- answering Hunt 1 question.

Met him(Of course he has met many)
Done chi sau with him( " " ))
Been to seminars and demos.
Read al articles in English that
I am awre of. Read Fung’s books- seen video.
Been in wc for a long time.
Met many other top flight people.
Have visited other lineages.

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PS>: But I dont jump to criticising any of the folks who really studied with YM for a while- and TST did. Ip man knew more than all of them combined I am sure(self evident in the results). But each got different pieces of the whole pie. Hence the importance of comparing in civil fashion the differnt pieces of the Ip Man puzzle and other wing chun puzzles as well.

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Again, I want to remind everyone that this post is just to see why people think he’s good. It’s not to talk down TST…i really lilke the guy.

My statements are based on 3 months training with his 20 year student Ma Kee Fei and 3 visits to his school. During those three months, it was pretty much one on one because the class he teaches at the VTAA is in the daytime. Hardly anyone goes during the day (1-4pm) But there are many of TST’s friends that come to visit and talk to Ma. I even had a chance to roll with a student from the Leung Ting side.

I am NOT saying that I have seen all of his kung fu or anything like that. I also worked out with many of Jim Fung’s student that came to visit from Australia. I have also attended a few of the monthly VTAA meetings and met other students of TST from 5 to 10 years experience.

Again, i’m not saying that I am qualified to judge his wing chun. This post is just out of plain interest to see what others would say.

During my training with Ma, he told me about their theory and how it compares to others. He also told me a few great stories from back in the days.

The stance looks like they are just standing up, with the knees slightly bent. (Just so that they are not locked) To me, a low stance is where the knees are a fist apart. Their high stance looks likle someone who is just standing up.

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With the correct body alignment an upright 50/50 stance can tranfser and absorb an infinite amount of energy while allowing maximum mobility.

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coming from a TST lineage background..

I have been told numerous times that the ‘unused’ arm in the hand forms is kept pulled back constantly in an effort to help build it, amongst other things.

I have also been told that you should keep your elbows inside your body line, as much on centre as possible (without making yourself look like an idiot/uncomfortable by moving them in more than they will naturally go). I’m still a little confused by your ‘They prefer the elbows out near the waist.’ statement.

Stance-wise, I’m still wondering why you’re supposed to be feeling pain in your knees and legs? I’m at a loss to understand why you’d go so low in your stance, and how you manage to get your knees a fist apart when you’re supposed to be moving forward with your knees, not in. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to explain this for me without having to start another thread?

Their high stance looks likle someone who is just standing up.

Take a look at TST on the conference cd doing SLT - if he looks like he’s just standing up and not stable as a rock, then maybe I need glasses.

I don’t know, maybe the school I attend is the exception rather than the rule, but I highly doubt it. The local WSL/Barry Lee school doesn’t go ‘low’ in their stance (from what I’ve seen), either.

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Urban tea sez:(comments in brackets)

Again, I want to remind everyone that this post is just to see why people think he’s good. It’s not to talk down TST…i really lilke the guy.
((Differences in word choices on “guy”-I would have used
TST sifu or something like that.))

My statements are based on 3 months training with his 20 year student Ma Kee Fei and 3 visits to his school. During those three months, it was pretty much one on one because the class he teaches at the VTAA is in the daytime.

((One on one with Ma or TST sifu? Curious))

Again, i’m not saying that I am qualified to judge his wing chun. This post is just out of plain interest to see what others would say.

During my training with Ma, he told me about their theory and how it compares to others. He also told me a few great stories from back in the days.

((It might be helpful to discuss the major elements of TST’s
theory in a constructive open way? What key points did you note?))

The stance looks like they are just standing up, with the knees slightly bent. (Just so that they are not locked) To me, a low stance is where the knees are a fist apart. Their high stance looks likle someone who is just standing up.

((“Look like” can be misleading. There is a wide variation in the
“looks” of many stances among Ip Man’s students. A stance is for development of key things. The apprearance is less important than what is really going on and the results. Was Ma balanced…
was his stance able to handle some pressure?))

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Rill - hope this helps

He means in comparison to other W.C styles. I have also noticed that a lot of non TST lineages keep their elbows quite close to the center, in extreme case with the elbow in front of the solo plexus, right in the center.

I think the stance is rooted and stable, but I have also noticed it is not as low as others.

Stance-wise, I’m still wondering why you’re supposed to be feeling pain in your knees and legs? I’m at a loss to understand why you’d go so low in your stance, and how you manage to get your knees a fist apart when you’re supposed to be moving forward with your knees, not in. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to explain this for me without having to start another thread?

According to Red5angel and other Ken Chung lineage students on this forum, they keep there stance low and it is very uncomfortable for in the beginner stages. Many other lineages have a very low stance as well. I think this is to strengthen the legs and have a low center of gravity to make there stance stronger. But like you I don’t train this way.

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I would just like to experiment here because the way he does wing chun tends to break the typical wc rules.

Only the rules as you know them right now. Most of the time the ‘Rules’ change as learn more (from your point of view anyway). And i think TST is in a better position than you are to say what the WC rules are or are not.

They do not hold their elbows at the center.

Sometimes we do.

They prefer the elbows out near the waist

Nope. The height varies from opponent to opponent. Against a tall guy… needs structure different to against a small guy.

They feel that having the elbow at the center tenses the chest/shoulder area.

Dont advicate use of tension (for many reasons), if you can get it there without tension (and the situation dictates u need to be there) then great.

When doing the hand sets, their “other” hand is not pulled all way the way back but rather just held up near the chest.

Nope. We are taught to have the hand back all the way. But again we dont avdocate tension, the reason u saw people with hands where u saw them is becasue they might be only able to go back that far before the muscles tence up. Whats the point of forcing it back - segments ur body upon inpact if tension’s there.

Other methods say that if you pull the hand (in a fist) all the way back, then you are stretching and loosing that muscle. (deltoid?)

My opinion is stretching and doing the form are 2 different things.

Their stance is really high to a point where there is hardly any physical pain on the legs or knees.

Great!..unless pain is your game.

Their rolling in chi sau is at a fast pace

Nope, can be at any pace (often train slowely). Usually the people less exposed to TST method sets the pace..we just roll and let u do the work. :slight_smile:

There are no little 1 second pauses…looks sloopy and looks like they are not really listening,feeling with their hands.

Whats a little 1 second pause for?

Look like… I think someone already mention that looks arent everything. Besides what ive been taught is Very internal, ie you cant see whats going on inside!

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I don’t believe you people!

This man asked this potentially ill-mannered question in one of the most polite ways I’ve seen a delicate question asked on this board. And he got jumped on very rudely! Now be good little boys and answer his ****ing question!! If you think he has some facts wrong EXPLAIN, don’t CRITICISE.

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Urban tea.

Thank you for the interesting question. These are interesting differences which crop up quite a lot. I don’t practice TST style so I don’t know if your observations are correct, but I would hazard a guess, based on my own (slight) training experience and learning:

  1. My first sifu recommended training in two of the myriad useful ways of training out there:

a) Elbows in to get the right feeling of protecting the centreline, and to train the muscles used in striking. This way also gets you used to relaxing in a unnatural and difficult position, making it easier to relax in the fighting position (elbow slightly further out). As a beginner he taught me only elbows in.
b) Elbows (slightly more) out for more relaxation and flow. This way is better and more natural for fighting, as it enables you to use your elbow position for simultaneous prevention of outside-gate or centreline attacks more effectively. For example, if you lean into a hook and punch the face directly your elbow will deflect most of the force from the hook, unless it’s an overhand from a significantly larger person. Scary timing, but effective (you’ll probably still get punched!). It’s nice to practice elbows out, but I tend to find that if you practice elbows in your elbows tend to stray outwards under pressure anyway.

  1. I would say same as above really: Practise low, fight high. But, practising high has the advantage of being more ‘real’ if you are assuming that in a fight you’ll get higher anyway and this will significantly change your rooting. Incidentally, your energy in even your lowest stance should NEVER be in your knees (joints) but in the muscles above, otherwise you’ll cause some serious damage to your knees. I found this out the easy way: my knees were a bit shot from bad aiki practice years ago, so I had to use the muscles, and now the joints have eased up no end!! With the added bonus that my sifu said my stance is good!:smiley:

  2. There are many ways of doing chi sau. Sometimes fast and flowing is just as ‘feely’ as slow. Depends on how good your and your partners’ relaxation is.

BTW, I’ve practised with 20 year students whose style doesn’t look much like their masters. Don’t forget that after a few years you tend to make the style your own, plus some teachers don’t agree with some of their masters’ methods, so will change them when teaching in a different place.

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Mat

This man asked this potentially ill-mannered question in one of the most polite ways I’ve seen a delicate question asked on this board. And he got jumped on very rudely!

Rude? Sheesh, this is tame. But consider this..

Let’s say you drive a blue BMW. You’re talking to a friend on the phone one day who says ‘I hear you have a red BMW - I saw a red BMW once, the gears don’t work the same as other cars’. You’re confused - are there red BMW’s out there that differ to yours because of the colour, are these red BMW’s with custom mod’s, a different model, or does your friend just not know what he’s talking about? Why does he think you have a red BMW when he’s never even seen it? So you ask him where he saw the BMW and what the gears were like because you’re just plain confused…

No-one’s been rude, but perhaps it’s an unintentional side effect that some of us will sound disturbed by being told we have red BMW’s when we know for a fact that we’ve been driving a blue one for years, and the gears work the same as any other car.

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Their stance is really high to a point where there is hardly any physical pain on the legs or knees.

Great!..unless pain is your game.

Its not about pain caused by an anatomically incorrect position, but rather the discomfort of over-exertion of muscle in a good anatomically correct stance. There should never be true pain. (That’s bad). And then off of this building the muscle and other necessary structure needed to comfortably endure it.

This different structure changes the mechanics that as far as my personal experience goes, seem to increase stability, fluidity, mobility, fertility, and a particular method of power generation and expression that requires a stable base.

I can see it working at any height really, but for me, I have noticed that lower seems better. And the little I know about physics seems to imply that the lower the center of gravity, the better. But the only way to know anything for sure is to give it a sincere try.

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S. TEEBas,

What Ma has taught and explained to me is what TST is teaching today. He has said that TST has evolved his wc in a major way in the last 10 years. I have mentioned this before. Before (10+ years ago) the TST method was more similar to others and wasn’t so “unique” in it’s own way.

Today , the LIM LEk is expalined and understood by his students better and he has modified a few things that he feels is right.

The elbow at the waist, the “other” hand held near the armpit w/ elbow down and such are what he teaches TODAY and in the last 10 years.

I do appreciate you sharing what you have learned but I feel that it is TST"s old wing chun and that is what Jim Fung learned as well. There is a small group of Jim Fung students who practice more on their own, in this new LIm Lek method.

Anyone else out there with…anything to say? I knew that when I posted this, I would get criticism and that is fine.

BTW, TST has a new DVD coming out in 1-2 months. It will have everything that he teaches in wc. The 3 hand sets, weapons and dummy. I will update you guys when it does come out. Hopefully it’s all region!

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Sorry Rill!

Maybe I was being a bit sensitive (shurely shome mishtake!?)! 'Sides, didn’t notice you are an Ozzie! You’re right: ‘hogswash’ is nothing!