Many poeple spend large amounts of time on perfecting their stance. What are the functions/benifits of practicing of the stance in relation to a real world encounter? (offensive and defensive benifits)… does anyone see defensive benifits??
And to those who dont practice it, why not?
for me
natural relaxed stability in motion , balance , and lastly power
now I’m not talking about the sitting there first form training stance , but the attributes you develop from feeling the stance in motion and being stable
now the key is who do we develop this beyond just sitting there , and how do we transition it to being natural and spontaneous
in other words to have a stance when no stance is present to not be a slave to the physical shape ?
not trying to highjack the thread just had a few extra thoughts:D
Are we talking all stances? I see stances as part of the whole leg game, the different stances, getting from one to the other, footwork, and using the legs as elements to attack and defend with.
You’re practicing rooting to the ground, balance, leg strength, body unity, generating power, how to generate kicks from different postures, that sort of thing. Training the stance is a very good thing to do. You’re helping your mobility, you’re freeing yourself to move around or stay put during an encounter without compromising your center. Stance training is a part of this.
If there were two people squaring off, both people with equal skill and attributes from the waist up, but one was superior from the waist down in understanding and attributes, who is likely to win?
IMHO
SLT level with it’s immobile stance training can be frustrating to many.Most will focus on hands motions without realising all the work witch is done under the waist.They will often look at other styles for “mobility” thinking that Wing Chun is deficient in that area.
It is only after a long practice of Chum Kiu that the patient practitioner will feel how the wing chun stance is important overall.It is more than simple mobility it is body unity and power in movement applied to offense and defense.He will start to use his body mass in all hands motions.This is a big difference in effectiveness.
At this level,the stance function is more important than it’s look.A beginner,looking at an advanced player, might think that it is not properly done.
S.Teebas,
An infant will spend up to six to fourteen months learning how to stand. But, until the child perfects it, he or she is still unable to (or, at least finds it difficult to) continue on to walk, run, run, jump, walk backwards, let go of a older person’s hand, walk on sand, stand on one foot, etc.
From such a perfected stance, a child, if they were so inclined (and if the parent allows it), would go on to learn how to tumble, use a swing, back flip off the couch, ballet, catch a ball, wrestle their siblings, chase the cat - the possibilities are endless, and all due to the child perfecting their ability to stand.
If you can answer why an infant should perfect their ability to stand, then you have your answer as to why a martial artist might want to do the same for their stance (whatever stance their particular style and/or body makeup may warrant to become an effective platform).
Personally I dont practice my stance in isolation from other practice over and above forms and I try to spend as little time on these as my instructor will let me get away with.
As for staying in a stable WC stance while moving, you need to practice that while moving.
I certainly dont see much benefit in standing in a stance to promote lower body strength as some advocate. There are far more efficient ways to promote lower body strength, heavy squats and plyometric exercises for example.
But then I’m a WC heretic, hate forms, dont believe chi-sau is the ultimate answer to everything and like to weight train so what do I know.
Originally posted by KingMonkey
But then I’m a WC heretic, hate forms, dont believe chi-sau is the ultimate answer to everything and like to weight train so what do I know.
Nobody is forced to take Wing Chun.There are many other arts who could fit your credentials.
I dont think my comments are that much at odds with using WC as a vehicle to fight as opposed to a hobby that is simply an end in itself.
But you’re right if I could find a good JKD or Systema school that was in my area I’d most likely be training in one of those styles.
Originally posted by KingMonkey
I dont think my comments are that much at odds with using WC as a vehicle to fight as opposed to a hobby that is simply an end in itself.
There can be two ways to understand Wing Chun: You can develop a very effective surface system in order to fight well in cunjunction with physical stamina/good shape sparring tricks ETC or: Go deep in the art,develop good body unity and structure,economy of energy,power through proper alingnment and all the other things a good hobby can provide!..And at the end be able to use it in self-defense.
To each his own.
Understanding one’s relationship to the ground is an important part of stance training… and it helps with footwork of various kinds and it heps understanding the structural weaknesses of one’s opponent.
Originally posted by Ernie
in other words to have a stance when no stance is present to not be a slave to the physical shape ?
not trying to highjack the thread just had a few extra thoughts
Interesting idea. Are you saying that shapes are not as important as the functionality of the stance?
(as long as we talk about the stance i don’t mind what is said here, I’m just throwing a few questions around to see how we all think)
Originally posted by gilsinger
Are we talking all stances?
Do you see there to be many stances? What are they? I thought its all the same stance?? What’s your take on this?
Originally posted by oldjong
Most will focus on hands motions without realising all the work witch is done under the waist.
Good point, How do find is the best method for connecting the lower and upper body old jong?
Tom Kagan,
A very intelligent, metaphorical and thought provoking post. 
Originally posted by yuanfen
it helps understanding the structural weaknesses of one’s opponent.
How can it be exploited once you become aware of the weakness?
Thanks to everyone who answered.
s.teebas
Interesting idea. Are you saying that shapes are not as important as the functionality of the stance?
(as long as we talk about the stance i don’t mind what is said here, I’m just throwing a few questions around to see how we all think)
if you look at things from the inside out , the stance creates a position , balance and alighnment , this teaches your body and mind what it feels like to sit and be stable , later how to move and be stable , once your mind and body are unified this feeling becomes a natural part of your expression ,
thus you need not assume a posture the link’’ connection ‘’ is already in your mind , so you draw upon that when it’s needed and only as much as it’s needed ,
just like a punch when you learn all the angles and positions of the ‘’ proper’’ punch your are trapped by the rules of this punch since you don’t own it yet ,
later after you got it down you can just express it , this way or that way and it becomes alive and adaptable part of your natural process .
once you own the feeling of something it can no longer own you
just my way of learning , not everyones
S. Teebas asks:
Originally posted by yuanfen
(Depends on the nature of the weakness and honest knowledge of your ability to exploit that weakness. One size does not fit all.
Good knowledge and experience can tell you many things including(but there is more) the following…Off balance backwards? Forward? Springy?Balanced-will he need to chamber before kicking? hand postures too soft? Too hard? Head- eyes- aligned with the body- intent in the eyes-emotional level- control-calmness- centerline—possible weakeness in the upper gates? middle gates? Standing too low for mobility? Too high for stability?
There are series of options depending on distance and variations in timing for each of the above.))
Originally posted by S.Teebas
Good point, How do find is the best method for connecting the lower and upper body old jong?
Chum Kiu,not only doing the form but doing your best in using what it teaches in everyday chi sau/whatever two men drills practice.
Good lord Ernie!!!
You really need to stop immediately. Dang bro!!!
okay…see I don’t read half these threads because most of them are boring and useless…but every once in a while, I’ll click on one.
Then I see your post..
Then I read your post.
Then I smile and realize there is good in the world of wing chun.
Everyone…read Ernie’s posts, because he gives the KEY to the answer for the question of this thread. What he doesnt give you is the “how”
Ernie, guess what…Andrew and I just got done training the “how”…stance developement with “real”, LIVE application, and energy. It was the hardest part of the workout…of which there were many aspects trained Though somehow, by your posts, you must be doing the EXACT same thing.
hint clinch /hint
KenWingJitsu
Ernie, guess what…Andrew and I just got done training the “how”…stance developement with “real”, LIVE application, and energy. It was the hardest part of the workout…of which there were many aspects trained Though somehow, by your posts, you must be doing the EXACT same thing.
wow I wish I was there , Andrew invited but I spent the day sitting with Hawkins and discussing fight strategies and what is lacking in current day wing chun , I’m sitting home writing notes and drawing diagrams , how do you formulate a feeling and cultivate it in a way any one can get it ? let you know if I ever figure it out ,
dude we were training how to read a persons firing synapses and capturing the ‘’ off’’ time to disrupt his flow , and how to minimize my own’’ off’’ time , like a power sign wave
0 to 100 back to 0 , yet using structure and position to support the down side of your sign wave while catching the opponents , it was nice , but I’m off subject
stance and how ,
depending on the stance and reference point that the stance has to support or transfer power to , I train it different ways , perhaps a relaxed root and absorbing and deflecting or guiding incoming energy ,
perhaps with a step and projection, maybe pressure poon sau with no hitting just my horse against your horse ,
maybe a more mobile variation like the knife footwork were I must be light swift and yet completely interruptible , and of course body to body ‘’ clinch’’ were you must sink and be very heavy and stable yet be able to generate wedging leverage or short range explosiveness ,
maybe dare I say in reverse were I can use the back stepping action of the horse to pull some one out of there root ,
then there is all the transitional phases between , were core stability and balance must be able to maintain slightly off actions , since we are not always perfect ,
in the end
what is a stance , but a moment in time , like as if the ground were filled with electric current and your heels were the conduits ,
you only need to tap in when there is a reason ,
what good is being rooted when the opponent is 10 feet away , yet people do this
be light free move find your position then add your power what good is the most powerful stance and root if the person is on inch away from the end of the action , simply a waste of energy
yet many over commit to force there will ,
what good is the light quick footwork if the wave of pressure has all ready crashed on me , I need stability or I will be washed away
so how do I learn when to us what
simple create experiences , with specific goals , don’t be stubborn , change when it’s time to change , make the stance ‘‘wing chun’’ work for you , not you for it
sorry if I’m a little out there but it’s were my head is at tonight .
peace
Re: Stance
Hi S.Teebas,
Originally posted by S.Teebas
[B]Many poeple spend large amounts of time on perfecting their stance. What are the functions/benifits of practicing of the stance in relation to a real world encounter? (offensive and defensive benifits)… does anyone see defensive benifits??
And to those who dont practice it, why not? [/B]
There have already been many excellant responses, and I agree with most of them, but I’ll add a little of my own conjecture. For defense training, your stance can act as “training wheels”, or a buffer. That is, the more stable and solid your stance is, the longer you can sustain an overwhelming incoming force before being uprooted. The point is not to absorb the force with your stance. The point is to neutralize and borrow the force, but you can hardly do that when you’re being uprooted. The better your root is, the more time you have to respond to the incoming force properly.
In terms of offense, the strength of your root is directly related to the amount of force you can express as well as the quality of it. That is, the stronger your root, the harder you can hit, and the better you can “penetrate”. The weaker your root, the weaker your ability to hit and penetrate.
Only my own opinions.
Regards,
Alan
what good is the most powerful stance and root if the person is on inch away from the end of the action , simply a waste of energy
Doesn’t a correct WC stance conserve energy?
[[ Doesn’t a correct WC stance conserve energy?
]]
a correct stance , hmmm correct in respect to what ?
being stable , moving , absorbing , balance . speed , power
see were i’m coming from , and as others have pointed out things change , and one must change with them
in the begining we are all rigid and fixed ,
after we learn to relax , and we get our first dose of ground and strucural power ,
the comfort zone of a solid base’’ this is very addictive
and in chi sau it feels strong , but we are still trapped by the essence of the shape , if you don’t sit this certian way you will be toppled , then we get to our second form and we start very basic motion , no we have momentum and we are in bliss even more power , we can go through or deflect and bend others , we have angles and pivots ,
a new trap more fixed positions hidden by motion ,
the we learn to link and unlink the chain of points that tranfer power , now we have variables of degree , this seems like freedom , but not yet
since we still train it in a fixed enviroment , it doesn’t know how to deal with uncripy energy or awkward line of attack
so once the stance becomes adaptive , through experience , and can change through your feeling and thought then you have a stance that isn’t a stance until it needs to be,
and that would conserve energy since it uses none until the right moment ,
i’f mine ever gets that good i’ll let you know:D
Ernie,
you have me jealous man- the Hawkins stuff sounds extra tasty.
The stuff Dhira and I were working is related to the environment I showed you- another evolution of it.
All this junk about ‘stance’ as some positional dogma is nigh useless if you don’t provide context. ‘Stance’, ‘footwork’, and the spirit and energy with which they’re applied have to be viewed in the context of your environment, as you imply. As such, the most effective way to train such things is to create enviroments in which good habits of ‘stance’ survive and poor ones die. Nothing instills 0/100 footwork like sweeps. No lecture, no marching up and back the room stepping. Nothing. Likewise for other components of the body mechanics of Wing Chun. These mechanics will not arise spontaneously in all cases, however, and must sometimes be pointed out for people to understand their nature and to pay attention to their development.
All this being said- once you have experiential knowlege of your stance as a dynamic entity, then training it away from other folks, on its own can be useful. To me, this is part of what Siu Nim Tao addresses. Is it necessary- no, not with the right partner training methods. Is it helpful- yes, very, to some people, sometimes.
Is there a point to this- not really. Some people will persist in worshiping shapes and calling them Wing Chun, others do whatever they find functional and call it Wing Chun. Somewhere in my motion, if I look closely and with a clear eye, I can find some more Wing Chun with each practice. That’s all that really matters.
Andrew
P.S. Ernie- Saturday after Thanksgiving a good day to workout for you?