Stance confusion

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Ok, in past discussions about stance work, people seem to say it is relatively useless for martial arts, and the development is limited to the specific position being held.

Did I get that right?

Ok, assuming I understand this, why is it I have really different results when I train stances heavily?

I have been doing less stances, but loner times, like Horse 3-5 minutes, followed by bow, twisted stance, Cat stance etc.. for as long as I can untill I fall over and can’t get up (About 2 minutes). I rest between each stance, and hold the last stance as another horse as long as I possibly can. I often rest extra long before I do the last stance, so I can hold it longer than the others.

Now, I have been doing this, and just body weight conditioning for about 6 weeks and little else. Today I did my forms for the first time in a long time, and found I was exceptionally loose, agile and moved with a much greater smoothness precision and balance. I’m talking a HUGE improvement over the last time I did my forms 6 + weeks ago.

If stances only develop you in a very limited way, and restrict your development to a limited range and position. If they develop only muscular endurance, and little strength, why is it I have such marked improvement in EVERY possible position through out all my form? How did my transitions get so much smoother all of a sudden? I haven’t done ANY form work in almost 7 weeks, JUST stance work, and pushups, pull ups, ab work etc.

Why is it my agility is showing such an improvement? Why am I suddenly so much smoother?

I am really confused here, because according to all the experts here, I should not be experiencing such results, especially not to such a noticable degree.

What is going on here?

2

Seems to me, your improved on HOLDING, and USING stances, not much else. You practice stances, so your stances are better, period. Strength improvements are limited from stance work as mentioned here before, but of course practicing something means reaping improvements in that something. I dont’ think anyone is saying that practicing stances won’t help you in your FORMS, but skill in forms doesn’t really translate to anything… seems pretty simple to me.

3

I have noticed the exact same thing!
Putting in extra time for JUST stances makes a very large difference. While squats may give you that extra strength, stances do something entirely differently to your ability to move.

4

Seems to me, your improved on HOLDING, and USING stances, not much else.

Reply]
What I am trying to tell you is I am showing noticable improvement across the board. Even my footwork has improved.

You practice stances, so your stances are better, period. Strength improvements are limited from stance work as mentioned here before, but of course practicing something means reaping improvements in that something. I dont’ think anyone is saying that practicing stances won’t help you in your FORMS, but skill in forms doesn’t really translate to anything… seems pretty simple to me.

Reply]
But I am seeing improvements everywhere, even footwork, agility, cardio.

The improvements are not limited to the specific stances either, they are across my ENTIRE range of motion…how can this be happening when stances only develop you in a narrow range dictated by the shape of the specific posture?

5

There is another thread and as I said there stances are an important part of MA training. To answer your question, from a biomechanical view stance work strengthens the joint as well as the muscle “see other thread”. The proprioception is improved from holding stances the longer the hold the greater the fatigue the more difficult it is to control the stance and angles of the joints thus improving endurance and placement awareness. This will help with transitionary movements as all movement is is movement with proprioception emphasis. KC

6

[QUOTE=kwaichang;769061]There is another thread and as I said there stances are an important part of MA training. To answer your question, from a biomechanical view stance work strengthens the joint as well as the muscle “see other thread”. The proprioception is improved from holding stances the longer the hold the greater the fatigue the more difficult it is to control the stance and angles of the joints thus improving endurance and placement awareness. This will help with transitionary movements as all movement is is movement with proprioception emphasis. KC[/QUOTE]

Kung fu is filled with so much bullsh!t.

7

[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;769047]Now, I have been doing this, and just body weight conditioning for about 6 weeks and little else. Today I did my forms for the first time in a long time, and found I was exceptionally loose, agile and moved with a much greater smoothness precision and balance. I’m talking a HUGE improvement over the last time I did my forms 6 + weeks ago.[/QUOTE]

For an answer to your question, you might look up two concepts:

  • Periodization of training.
  • Placebo effect.
8

[I]For an answer to your question, you might look up two concepts:

  • Periodization of training.
  • Placebo effect[/I].

Reply]
I doubt it is placebo. This is an unexpected result. i was dong stance work to strengthen my structure. All these other benefits were totally unexpected. In order for something to be a placebo, you have to expect the result before hand, and I wasn’t. I got more stability, and stronger structure over the last 6 weeks, as expected, all the other results were not on the menu, so the placebo effect does not apply.

9

What I am trying to tell you is I am showing noticable improvement across the board. Even my footwork has improved.

Well yeah, you would expect that. Bu even translates better as step than stance.

10

TCMA still clings to a lot of outdated thinking on training… boxers 100 years ago trained differently, but since they wanted to get better (not follow “tradition”) they evolved as science evolved. Judo used to think lifting weights was counter to their philosophy, now it is standard supplementary training…

TCMA also clings to things they don’t even understand the original purpose of, having people stand in stances for ridiculous periods of time was to “test them” and to weed out students…

11

I am curious. I know that stance is important in all styles and systems of Kung Fu and Karate. Even in other forms of fighting art. But I have to wonder if a stance that is painful is also effective. Would you not be more able to launch from a more natural and comfortable stance? After all, if it is difficult to hold for more than a few minutes you will one day not be able to do it any more.

12

Riddle me this, why do we hear so much about how the deep, immovable stances of southern kung fu were overwhelmingly DROPPED in favor of more narrow and mobile stances???

Old Hung style gave way to Wong Fei Hung style Hung fist

Even Wong Fei Hung style Hung fist was deemed to stationarry and impractical, leading to fusions like Jow Ga, Hung Fut, Hung Mok, etc

13

Well yeah, you would expect that. Bu even translates better as step than stance.

Reply]
But I am not actually stepping, I have just been standing in deep stances till I fell over and could not gte up anymore. Yet suddenly I have become much more agile? How does that work?

Doesn’t common logic state that stance work only develops you over a VERY limited and restricted plane?

[I]Riddle me this, why do we hear so much about how the deep, immovable stances of southern kung fu were overwhelmingly DROPPED in favor of more narrow and mobile stances???

Old Hung style gave way to Wong Fei Hung style Hung fist

Even Wong Fei Hung style Hung fist was deemed to stationarry and impractical, leading to fusions like Jow Ga, Hung Fut, Hung Mok, etc[/I]

Reply]
well, that is the common logic. It’s also why I am so confused? How did I get this sudden boost in agility by standing in deep immovable stances…shouldn’t the OPPOSITE have happened?

I was thinking to do this for 6-8 weeks, and then hit it heavy with foot work drills and such to get my mobility back after I Thought I would lose it…instead I actually got MORE agile and mobile?

What happened here? Why did it not work like all the experts on the forum say it should? Why were my result the opposite of everyone’s expertise?

I really don’t get it.

14

Because all the so called experts arent like Knife fighter and others “see other thread on same sub”. Im happy for you man glad to see someone can use the old “outdated traditional methods” and make progress. Too bad you didnt have a modern trainer with all that cra p to tell you it wouldnt work. haha. These guys hate “see I told ya so”.. Amazing what a little hard work can do, KC

15

RD, what tests are you using to establish that your ‘agility’ has improved? Your ‘footwork’? Your endurance and balance?

In what way have they improved?

If you’re just saying your forms feel more agile etc etc, that’s probably a result of your body having been bored sh!tless… If I hold a heavy bag of shopping motionless for twenty minutes and put it down, I feel lighter…! And then if I move I feel more agile! Well, of course I do, cos I was doing **** all before, so in comparison…

Get my drift.

I’m not definitely saying that some stance work doesn’t have limited benefits in those areas: but I am saying holding heavy shopping bags could have the same effect! :stuck_out_tongue:

Also, the benefits and functional limitations of isometrics are well-documented. Why are you insisting on coming back to this conversation based on your own anecdotal observation?

KF, what’s up with you today? Abel been seeing to your old lady again? :smiley:

16

Mr Punch, the studies on Isometrics I read and posted does not support your point of view. Why cant you guys just admit you were wrong and stance training does make you better by improving speed power etc as RD has said it does for him? I applaud him for putting in thr effort to show us all ST works. KC

17

[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;769089][I]

But I am not actually stepping, I have just been standing in deep stances till I fell over and could not gte up anymore. Yet suddenly I have become much more agile? How does that work?
[/QUOTE]

Increased stability in the rooted or weighted leg.

18

[I]If I hold a heavy bag of shopping motionless for twenty minutes and put it down, I feel lighter…! And then if I move I feel more agile! Well, of course I do, cos I was doing **** all before, so in comparison…

Get my drift.[/I]

Reply]
No, you would feel like your arms were about to fall off. after just 3 minutes of horse stance, I’m dy’n, but by the time i do 5 horse, and 2 more of Bow stance each side, and then 2 more of twisted horse stance, and then 2 more in empty stance, THEN 3 more in Horse I can’t even walk or stand for a good 20 minutes. I just sit there and do Xi Xue Jing. Even then, the walk back to the car is tough as I am pretty spent.

Oh, and i forgot to mention I just held the ball for like 10 minutes before I even started all that.

This increase in agility did not occur right after I did A stance, it happened over 6 weeks of heavy stance work. It is a perminant state of improvement. I can rip though my form COLD, no warm up and it’s still smoother, more controlled and far easier than before. My foot work has lightened. I can move faster, cover more ground and change directions on a dime, where as before i cold not perform this well.

I have improved enough to where I am better even cold, no warm up, than i was fully warmed up before…and I show even more improvement fully warmed up.

19

[QUOTE=kwaichang;769122]Mr Punch, the studies on Isometrics I read and posted does not support your point of view. Why cant you guys just admit you were wrong and stance training does make you better by improving speed power etc as RD has said it does for him? … KC[/QUOTE]Would you like to repost them on this thread…? I can’t remember which ones you’re talking about and I don’t want to trawl through that train wreck again!

While you’re at it, perhaps you’d like to highlight the parts that don’t agree with my PoV: since my PoV has always just been that while stance training is good for you the effects will plateau fairly short-term… If you have any studies that will contradict that please let me see them (again?) and I’ll stand (for a long time in horse stance!) corrected! :smiley:

20

It seems you’re stressing structure. We all have to start that way. When we begin kung-fu (more recent for me than you, by far) it’s all structure. Over time, you get distracted by motions of hands, applications, practicality…but when you go back and stress your stance work after it all, you get back to your mobility, balance, coordination, and root. I’ve been doing the same thing RD, (although I haven’t tried them until I fall down, but just might if I can keep from *****ing out…ahahaha…) and I’ve noticed the same. Granted, my forms look like crap later on in my classes, b/c my legs are worn out from capoeira, kung-fu, and stance training in my off time, but when I’m 100%, it’s a world of difference.

Plus my girlfriend says my ass looks great.:wink: